Science/Environment The Carbon Debate, pt III

[SaintsSeptember]

A cost that people are prepared to pay for... forward thinking.
Something this country in recent times fails at.

Helps to be the wealthiest country in europe.
How does your solution translate to less well of countries?
Will it work in Greece?
Will it work in Australia"
Will it work in INdia , Botswana.

Yeah i know lefties think that all governments can just print money and buy s**t, good luck with that.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Chairman of the food council just declared no further investment in Australia until the energy issue is resolved.

= lower energy needs in Oz, lower pollution Oz = export jobs and our pollution overseas + more transport costs

Brilliant strategy!

Its true if we all live like cave men and don't do anything at night, we will way decrease our per capita carbon output. Yay. ( Doing nothing to help the GLOBAL situation ).
We can export our coal and gas , because surely those people we are selling it to won't do anything bad with it like burn it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

FACTS.
CO2 per capita.
France. 5 tons
UK 7 tons
Germany 9 tons
Canada 14 tons
Australia 16 tons
USA 18 tons

Now i can come up with several extenuating circumstances for australia, not least the size of the place compared to the population.

Shall we all crap on about how great Germany are? Lets ignore their total output.
Oh and the usa have a dandy solar plant in the desert somewhere.

Its all about scale people.

Qatar are at 40 tons, but they make no bloody difference.

 

[Power Raid]

Its true if we all live like cave men and don't do anything at night, we will way decrease our per capita carbon output. Yay. ( Doing nothing to help the GLOBAL situation ).
We can export our coal and gas , because surely those people we are selling it to won't do anything bad with it like burn it.

he made the statement on the ABC tonight on a segment on the CFMEU bagging the decision to close down Hazelwood.

I don't give a s**t about Hazelwood but the comment re investment in Oz is frightening

 

[nut]

Chairman of the food council just declared no further investment in Australia until the energy issue is resolved.

= lower energy needs in Oz, lower pollution Oz = export jobs and our pollution overseas + more transport costs

Brilliant strategy!

Link?

 

[nut]

he made the statement on the ABC tonight on a segment on the CFMEU bagging the decision to close down Hazelwood.

I don't give a s**t about Hazelwood but the comment re investment in Oz is frightening

It's is frightening... just like all the other manufacturing that's been closing down too.

 

[Power Raid]

Link?

the ABC

 

[nut]

the ABC

I read something about Manufacturing quitting Australia.. just the an excuse the globalist need to do what they want any way.

 

[Power Raid]

ah here is the print version of the telecast. slightly different but same same

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...australia-if-reliable-energy-in-doubt/8366528

 

[Power Raid]

I read something about Manufacturing quitting Australia.. just the an excuse the globalist need to do what they want any way.

I'm not a globalist and I've taken the same view re investing in Oz. I think it's convenient to disregard conversation and label people globalist "wanting to leave anyway".

Perhaps as we watch "globalist leave" we should spare a thought for the unemployed, especially the 20% unemployed youth and the mountain of debt the nation has to repay.

We have to move forward to a cleaner future but we shouldn't believe it can be achieved without investment, jobs or stability.

 

[nut]

I'm not a globalist and I've taken the same view re investing in Oz. I think it's convenient to disregard conversation and label people globalist "wanting to leave anyway".

Perhaps as we watch "globalist leave" we should spare a thought for the unemployed, especially the 20% unemployed youth and the mountain of debt the nation has to repay.

We have to move forward to a cleaner future but we shouldn't believe it can be achieved without investment, jobs or stability.

Yep and when the private sector keeps failing communities we need governments to step up to the plate. Or this country will continue to go backwards ... and be sold off bit by bit until we have nothing for future generation.
Sometimes I feel we are way too embedded into free trade and pro overseas investments that we are getting plundered to the benefit of massive overseas corporations...
Dodgy gas deals.
Selling our natural resources to the lowest bidder... with no real benefit to Australia.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

he made the statement on the ABC tonight on a segment on the CFMEU bagging the decision to close down Hazelwood.

I don't give a s**t about Hazelwood but the comment re investment in Oz is frightening

Hazelwood is very old, and well past is use by date. But the replacement has never been built.
I wonder if the operators were given an ultimatum. Close Hazelwood or don't get the approval to upgrade Loy Yang B. Obviously they chose to go with the plant that has more of a future.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yep and when the private sector keeps failing communities we need governments to step up to the plate. Or this country will continue to go backwards ... and be sold off bit by bit until we have nothing for future generation.
Sometimes I feel we are way too embedded into free trade and pro overseas investments that we are getting plundered to the benefit of massive overseas corporations...
Dodgy gas deals.
Selling our natural resources to the lowest bidder... with no real benefit to Australia.

I maintain that the Government deals with companies on a wrong level.

Auto Industry?
While GM was going broke globally, Australia was selling more GM cars than Korea. More than the UK.
That is NOT a non-viable market.

They asked the USA owned companies what it would take for them to stay in Australia. Answer money.
Now if you ask your child why he's wagging school and what it will take for him to go, and he says "more pocket money" most parents would treat that idea with the contempt it deserves. Instead they paid them money. Often in exchange for things that didn't happen or were overstated.

Our successive governments have failed to provide a framework that encourages businesses to manufacture or invest in Australia.

 

[Power Raid]

Yep and when the private sector keeps failing communities we need governments to step up to the plate. Or this country will continue to go backwards ... and be sold off bit by bit until we have nothing for future generation.
Sometimes I feel we are way too embedded into free trade and pro overseas investments that we are getting plundered to the benefit of massive overseas corporations...
Dodgy gas deals.
Selling our natural resources to the lowest bidder... with no real benefit to Australia.

I'm old enough to remember the good old days of govt ownership.

The days when you couldn't afford to call your family and friends interstate other than a group family hurdle around the phone at Christmas and birthdays.

The days when you had to take a days leave and line up for 4-5 hours to renew a drivers licence.

I believe in govt regulation but not govt operation attested to by the examples above. You also need the independence in the system for govt to regulate properly.

What we are seeing though is a cause of popular politics, incompetence and creating an environment not stable for investment.

Not surprisingly the heart of the problem also revolves around an electorate that is the poorest.

 

[igon value]

OK Trump....

So the reef hasn't existed in other locations including 100m above current sea level? And different temperatures?

Corals have existed for 100 millions of years, through previous mass extinction events, their long time existence on this earth and presence in the geological record does not negate that what is happening on the Great Barrier Reef is one of many warning signs about increasing temperatures on this planet.

The Great Barrier Reef is older than Homo sapiens, so if I was going to take a bet on which was more likely to survive a climate change event, it wouldn't be us.

 

[Power Raid]

Corals have existed for 100 millions of years, through previous mass extinction events, their long time existence on this earth and presence in the geological record does not negate that what is happening on the Great Barrier Reef is one of many warning signs about increasing temperatures on this planet.

The Great Barrier Reef is older than Homo sapiens, so if I was going to take a bet on which was more likely to survive a climate change event, it wouldn't be us.

yes, it says a lot when you think about it

 

[pugsville]

I'm old enough to remember the good old days of govt ownership.

The days when you couldn't afford to call your family and friends interstate other than a group family hurdle around the phone at Christmas and birthdays.

The days when you had to take a days leave and line up for 4-5 hours to renew a drivers licence.

I believe in govt regulation but not govt operation attested to by the examples above. You also need the independence in the system for govt to regulate properly.

What we are seeing though is a cause of popular politics, incompetence and creating an environment not stable for investment.

Not surprisingly the heart of the problem also revolves around an electorate that is the poorest.

selective cherry picked examples. telecoms the cost of providing services have plummeted the technology has changed massive. Arguable prices have not dropped as much as they should.

Did also remember when power prices were reasonable?

 

[Taylor]

I think power prices are still reasonable, my expectations for things being turned on have expanded. The air con is orders of magnitude more expensive than the fan.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

selective cherry picked examples. telecoms the cost of providing services have plummeted the technology has changed massive. Arguable prices have not dropped as much as they should.

Did also remember when power prices were reasonable?

I remember doing ( supposedly ) Engineering work experience with the SEC.
I was basically dumped among a crew of fitters who were reading newspapers, playing cards , mostly doing stuff nothing.
A guy i knew from school was among them, he told me about his first couple of weeks as an apprentice.
He had been given a toolbox , and overalls and shown where the fitters were.
As he described it, he sat on his toolbox for a week until someone finally gave him some work to do.
I saw a particularly small job attended by every fitter in the place ( 2 working 7 or so watching ), because they were all bored.
I ended up asking to be moved because i actually wanted to gain some experience in my short time there. ( I think my employment prospects there took a dive because of it ).
I could fill pages with other things I KNOW about the SEC , and there is plenty I don't know.

By the time it was dissolved the SEC had a putrid work culture.
It was certainly not efficient in any way.

They were very good at the high level stuff. Preventive maintenance for example was excellent, and ground breaking. ( no longer in place under private enterprise ). There is a reason the equipment has lasted so long.

 

[nut]

I'm old enough to remember the good old days of govt ownership.

The days when you couldn't afford to call your family and friends interstate other than a group family hurdle around the phone at Christmas and birthdays.

The days when you had to take a days leave and line up for 4-5 hours to renew a drivers licence.

I believe in govt regulation but not govt operation attested to by the examples above. You also need the independence in the system for govt to regulate properly.

What we are seeing though is a cause of popular politics, incompetence and creating an environment not stable for investment.

Not surprisingly the heart of the problem also revolves around an electorate that is the poorest.

When did we privatise VicRoads?

 

[pugsville]

I remember doing ( supposedly ) Engineering work experience with the SEC.
I was basically dumped among a crew of fitters who were reading newspapers, playing cards , mostly doing stuff nothing.
A guy i knew from school was among them, he told me about his first couple of weeks as an apprentice.
He had been given a toolbox , and overalls and shown where the fitters were.
As he described it, he sat on his toolbox for a week until someone finally gave him some work to do.
I saw a particularly small job attended by every fitter in the place ( 2 working 7 or so watching ), because they were all bored.
I ended up asking to be moved because i actually wanted to gain some experience in my short time there. ( I think my employment prospects there took a dive because of it ).
I could fill pages with other things I KNOW about the SEC , and there is plenty I don't know.

By the time it was dissolved the SEC had a putrid work culture.
It was certainly not efficient in any way.

They were very good at the high level stuff. Preventive maintenance for example was excellent, and ground breaking. ( no longer in place under private enterprise ). There is a reason the equipment has lasted so long.

and yet power prices have soared under privatisation? How can private companies be even more inefficient ? are they just skinning us unbelievably badly or paying some rich cats just huge sums? or is you antedoctatal evidence actually not correct.

If what you say is true how can privatisation failed so badly?

 

[Taylor]

What if government owned is heavily subsidised and when it goes private the previous funds are directed somewhere else?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

and yet power prices have soared under privatisation? How can private companies be even more inefficient ? are they just skinning us unbelievably badly or paying some rich cats just huge sums? or is you antedoctatal evidence actually not correct.

If what you say is true how can privatisation failed so badly?

Based on the very very cheap prices I've seen them charge a small manufacturing company. I would suggest they are skinning us unbelievably badly. Like just about every other retailer in Australia.

Its been stated a lot that the SEC was profitable by millions of dollars the year it was sold. Maybe so, but that was operating profit, they had huge debts. Did the SEC pay for all of their Capex?

The old SEC was a great organisation, but when people who are already on a really good wicket decide to rort the system to the extreme something has to give.

 

[Moo]

Hazelwood is very old, and well past is use by date. But the replacement has never been built.
I wonder if the operators were given an ultimatum. Close Hazelwood or don't get the approval to upgrade Loy Yang B. Obviously they chose to go with the plant that has more of a future.

Hazelwood needs about 400 million of investment to keep operating.

What opponents to Climate Change need to understand is that there is a very large & critical mass of people in this country who do believe in it ....however what the opponents need to accept is that as it stands this very large group of people who basically have a religious fervour make a future ETS extremely likely (so likely I'd say inevitable).

Therefore if an ETS is likely to happen, no one is investing 400 mill into Hazlewood and most likely no one is pouring cash into the energy sector without risk/rewarding the investment.

Don't go an ETS because of climate change, go an ETS because without it - private funding is stuffed and by extension you rely on the Govt to fill the space or you end up paying ridiculous prices to fund the risk.

 

[Taylor]

Is emission trading the most efficient means or is it good at propping up GDP by the purchase and selling of things that don't exist, don't cost anything to change hands etc?