Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[Beast__Mode]

31 out of 113 CBAs across his 4 senior games. Less than 30%.

Is that a big enough chance for a centre square mid?

yes, I think over his career Dow has had an ample opportunity to make his position in the 22 non-negotiable. On any reasonable level he’s failed to do so.

as a result, for me he needs to string multiple games of high quality (ball use, running patterns, decision making) in the VFL before he’s even considered for senior selection. He needs to show that he’s addressed the reasons why his coaches haven’t felt comfortable giving a high draft pick more CBAs to pad those stats.

everyone wants Dow to work out but after a while players tell you who they are (or aren’t).

 

[norway blue]

Coaches are always the fall guys aren't they?

Players make coaches. Just want our best 22 out there. . Continuity.training . Go The Navy Blues .


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[J-dog]

"Only club not playing youth" hahaha thats gotta be some kind of joke. We've had what's felt like 20 years of playing youth

And we will next year too with Murphy, Betts and Levi gone

 

[JustaBattler]

I think injuries are a factor but not as big a factor as we want them to be when we look at performance. I’d point to two factors - this week we have either the 4th or 5th fewest games played on our injury list in the comp. and of those on the list are there really any fundamental players? I don’t count Charlie because no one has any clue at all what he is going to be and therefore what he will mean to us. I don’t think Murph or Betts, with their significant minus on our ability to defend the whole ground, would be out of the team if Fisher were in. Newman maybe releases SPS, which would be positive. Martin of course is a plus. TDK is promising but if a ruck with so few games is critical to you then your list is not contending.

Secondly the issues we see are partly skill and execution, which speaks to injuries playing a role. But to my mind the most glaring issue is system and mental application. If there are 22 fit players on the ground we should at least be going home lamenting lapses of execution or stars on the opposing team taking advantage of a lesser matchup (which I felt was the case in Rd 1). I’m going home from these games (I’ve been to every Melbourne game) lamenting how easy we are to play as a collective. Port were not stressed by us in the slightest. I don’t think the Lions were too fussed either outside of Harry.

anyway enough from me. I’m disappointed because I really like Teague and was really looking forward seeing a team coached by him playing fun, scoring and tough footy. At the moment it’s anything but and getting to the point where I think the club’s view of the list vs the output on field is going to diverge to the point where his position is untenable by year’s end.

Harry will be worth every $ he gets from whoever is lucky enough to be the one paying him. I hope it’s us.

Yep we are a middling side battling for a bottom of the eight finals spot - where in the middle we finish would be helped yb having as many of our better players available for selection. Well at least for me - I dint expect anything different tbh.

EDIT: and I have to say that the Club declaring that they expected to make finals has only added unexpected pressure to the whole equation - for as long as the team keeps losing aginst last year's finalists and / or teams deemed to be beatable before the season started - eg Collingwood/Melbourne...

 

[Stamos]

I think injuries are a factor but not as big a factor as we want them to be when we look at performance. I’d point to two factors - this week we have either the 4th or 5th fewest games played on our injury list in the comp. and of those on the list are there really any fundamental players? I don’t count Charlie because no one has any clue at all what he is going to be and therefore what he will mean to us. I don’t think Murph or Betts, with their significant minus on our ability to defend the whole ground, would be out of the team if Fisher were in. Newman maybe releases SPS, which would be positive. Martin of course is a plus. TDK is promising but if a ruck with so few games is critical to you then your list is not contending.

Secondly the issues we see are partly skill and execution, which speaks to injuries playing a role. But to my mind the most glaring issue is system and mental application. If there are 22 fit players on the ground we should at least be going home lamenting lapses of execution or stars on the opposing team taking advantage of a lesser matchup (which I felt was the case in Rd 1). I’m going home from these games (I’ve been to every Melbourne game) lamenting how easy we are to play as a collective. Port were not stressed by us in the slightest. I don’t think the Lions were too fussed either outside of Harry.

anyway enough from me. I’m disappointed because I really like Teague and was really looking forward seeing a team coached by him playing fun, scoring and tough footy. At the moment it’s anything but and getting to the point where I think the club’s view of the list vs the output on field is going to diverge to the point where his position is untenable by year’s end.

Harry will be worth every $ he gets from whoever is lucky enough to be the one paying him. I hope it’s us.

I don't agree with your dismissal of our injured players, eg Charlie was pivotal in terms of what we invested in him, and the planning of our rebuild, and he was killing it at Full Forward when he was injured, and he along with Fisher, Martin and Jack are 4 of our best 5 forwards. TDK means would give us a better chance in the guts than Pitto, but at the very least allow us to forgo an injured Levi.

However, absolutely agree that the most glaring issue is system and mental application. Despite the injuries, we should be significantly better.

 

[JustaBattler]

I don't agree with your dismissal of our injured players, eg Charlie was pivotal in terms of what we invested in him, and the planning of our rebuild, and he was killing it at Full Forward when he was injured, and he along with Fisher, Martin and Jack are 4 of our best 5 forwards. TDK means would give us a better chance in the guts than Pitto, but at the very least allow us to forgo an injured Levi.

However, absolutely agree that the most glaring issue is system and mental application. Despite the injuries, we should be significantly better.

We wont get better until Teague solves the missing wingmen equation and gets as you say a decent forward line on the paddock.

 

[Gethelred]

Can't stand nice bastards.

Those dastardly pricks, being polite and offering everyone cake with tea!

Bollocks to them!

 

[BluesBusiness1991]

Can anyone please mythbust this theory for me?

Did “Carrazzo” actually mean ‘turn over’ in Italian?

My dad would always tell me it…so much so that it’s something I’ll never forget haha

 

[Rosscoe]

It’s a bit of an easy out just saying we’ve played good teams. Let’s look at the performances against those teams. Richmond I thought the intensity was there but we were overwhelmed by a fitter team. The relative running power of the teams was clear to see from my seat - how many years does this need to happen before Russell gets questioned, btw?

since then we’ve had a pattern of intensity being well down and getting opened up because we simply refuse to defend off the ball, and refuse to pick a forward line which has any hope of keeping it in there. Betts is finished, Murphy was never a pressure player and it’s hard to imagine a player being less effective at more parts of the game than Levi right now.

these are all outcomes of our systems, decisions and processes, not a function of who we play. Losing a cracking, high quality game to Port with a kick after the siren is one thing. Getting toyed around with and effectively out of the game after 40 minutes is another.

likely the only way Teague keeps his job is if he plays kids and shows he can deliver a whole of ground system that can stand up. If he has one that is- the players he’s currently selecting aren’t showing it and will ultimately cost him his job. Buckley will be on the market, Lyon wants to coach again - after this mess who doesn’t think the board will go for tried and tested.

It is completely fair to be critical of our fitness.

Too many times players sit off defenders to the point that we are too far away to effect a contestBy the same token when we transition the ball from defence; we rarely lead to the ball and more often than not bomb away instead. We don’t stick tackles, our kicking is terrible, our intensity all are a byproduct of our fitness which IMO manifests itself in our systems.

I don’t agree that we got toyed with by any of the better sides. In the port game; We conceded 4 goals from defensive positioning; and made 4 gaffs that led to goals. That’s not us being toyed with. The Richmond and Brisbane games proved that we cannot go for four quarters yet.

Within regards to our older players; should we start gifting games to our youngsters? They are in our seniors as our list is still a work in progress and they are the best available. Murphy really does need to stay in the forward line though.

IMO we are a few years off competing for a flag. Our list is not yet complete and we have a lot of talent still developing. We need to give a run of games to our young players twice a year regardless of performance as long as they take some truths about their game away with them. I hate the way we drop them after one week.

Buckley is 1 from 5 with a senior side and the game has long gone past Lyon IMO. There are a few of the assistants going around at other clubs but at the moment I much prefer Teague.

 

[therubbernub]

Oh, on that I absolutely agree. Out stoppage setup has been putrid essentially since Ratts left, and even when he was here it was all plan A.

plan A equals judd

 

[sparkyblue]

Just watched Sellers on 360. My favourite quote at the very end of the segment: "Everyone's on notice at Carlton....and they should be!".

 

[Coops93]

31 out of 113 CBAs across his 4 senior games. Less than 30%.

Is that a big enough chance for a centre square mid?

What's he shown in those 31? Not a lot. You can't just give it to him for the sake of it at AFL level, it's not Auskick, you've got to show something that says you can do this and outside of his first season he's not shown a whole lot that suggests he can. That could be development or who knows what but it's the unfortunate truth.

Same with those in the media saying you just have to play these kids. In the first month Dow was invisible, as was Setterfield and O'Brien in his game. It's easy to say give the kids a chance, but at the same time they've got to earn it to a degree and grab the chance when it's given. Dow had a chance, a month in fact, and didn't take it. Should we bring him straight back into the team and into the centre clearance just because we have to give him a go? No. Same with O'Brien, if he'd shown something worth building on in rd 1 he wouldn't have been dropped, but he didn't. Setterfield was given a chance but was barely sighted.

Lachie Fogarty is a good example, up forward he showed a bit in the first couple of games and has earnt some time at a few centre bounces and on the ball since.

 

[Accidental genius]

What's he shown in those 31? Not a lot. You can't just give it to him for the sake of it at AFL level, it's not Auskick, you've got to show something that says you can do this and outside of his first season he's not shown a whole lot that suggests he can. That could be development or who knows what but it's the unfortunate truth.

Same with those in the media saying you just have to play these kids. In the first month Dow was invisible, as was Setterfield and O'Brien in his game. It's easy to say give the kids a chance, but at the same time they've got to earn it to a degree and grab the chance when it's given. Dow had a chance, a month in fact, and didn't take it. Should we bring him straight back into the team and into the centre clearance just because we have to give him a go? No. Same with O'Brien, if he'd shown something worth building on in rd 1 he wouldn't have been dropped, but he didn't. Setterfield was given a chance but was barely sighted.

Lochie Fogarty is a good example, up forward he showed a bit in the first couple of games and has earnt some time at a few centre bounces and on the ball since.

Cant argue with any of that. And there are valid questions... is it due to a lack of development, players not being good enough, gamestyle that doesn’t suit the players, inadequate instructions from coaches. It’s strange for so many high draft picks to have not cemented a spot in a senior line up after 4-5 years.

 

[Arr0w]

They need to let Dow hunt the footy like his first 2 years.

Unfortunately the club is trying to manufacture a composed, precise, defensive minded mid

Dow does have to work on his defensive side, but let him be a ball winner first and not on a wing of hf

 

[Brackets]

31 out of 113 CBAs across his 4 senior games. Less than 30%.

Is that a big enough chance for a centre square mid?

He contributed to just 3 clearances (10%) during his opportunity - that's the lowest contribution percent from the 11 players used. We're also winning just 30% of clearances when he's in there.

But ignore any figures, you only need to watch him. He was terrible in those games and his form dictated his attendance.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Can anyone please mythbust this theory for me?

Did “Carrazzo” actually mean ‘turn over’ in Italian?

My dad would always tell me it…so much so that it’s something I’ll never forget haha

Yes.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

Sellers on 360 Quote "Where is our club at does anyone know does the club Know? Don't think our club knows".
No wonder the supporter base is all over the shop can anyone see where we are heading?

Also agree with as a club we are worse off with Betts and Murphy in the team,
Going back to the two's and helping with development, while opening a position in the firsts, like previous club greats have done.

One other statement that rang alarm bells, who's running the show? Are the players running the boss? If so Teague needs to harden the **** up.

I've generally known what this club stands for, at this moment in time I am lost for words.
I'm leaning towards a boys club which is going to be very hard to weed out virtually impossible to get rid of.

 

[Coops93]

Can anyone please mythbust this theory for me?

Did “Carrazzo” actually mean ‘turn over’ in Italian?

My dad would always tell me it…so much so that it’s something I’ll never forget haha

Doesn't look like it

 

[Aphrodite]

Can anyone please mythbust this theory for me?

Did “Carrazzo” actually mean ‘turn over’ in Italian?

My dad would always tell me it…so much so that it’s something I’ll never forget haha

No it doesn't.

Was started years ago on another Carlton Forum.

 

[Blue__Balls]

The constant media pressure must be cutting through to the coaching group at IKON you would assume.

It’s time for the footy boss and coaching group to get in a room and map out the rest of the season

Murphy, Betts and Cas need to be phased out

Newnes needs to go back to the 2s in favour of LOB

Curnow needs to spend more time out centre and guys like Dow and setters need to be played in there for the duration of the season.

Plowman needs to either be played as a small or in the 2s...isn’t a 3rd tall


This needs to happen as of now...we can still salvage this season


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Disagree with these two points.

Those guys can't be gifted games again, it hasn't helped them to date and it's not going to help them moving forward.

We need to keep pushing the young blokes in the reserves to perform at a high level week in, week out. Reward the ones that do. If Willo, Dow, Setters and LOB see guys like Parks, Stocker, Carroll and Ramsay go past them, hopefully it lights a fire under them.

It might sound defeatist, but I'd be putting more stock in the performance of our reserves team this season than the seniors. I'd rather see the twos win a flag than the ones battling it out for 8th or 9th spot. Get the guys at the lower level dominating and then have them carry their form into the seniors.

 

[branedotorg]

Disagree with these two points.

Those guys can't be gifted games again, it hasn't helped them to date and it's not going to help them moving forward.

We need to keep pushing the young blokes in the reserves to perform at a high level week in, week out. Reward the ones that do. If Willo, Dow, Setters and LOB see guys like Parks, Stocker, Carroll and Ramsay go past them, hopefully it lights a fire under them.

It might sound defeatist, but I'd be putting more stock in the performance of our reserves team this season than the seniors. I'd rather see the twos win a flag than the ones battling it out for 8th or 9th spot. Get the guys at the lower level dominating and then have them carry their form into the seniors.

Footscray, Richmond have won a few between them in the past 10 years and geelong and box hill were dominant 10 years ago.

It's a pretty reliable indicator of future performance and the overall health of the club imo.

 

[myblueroan]

No it doesn't.

Was started years ago on another Carlton Forum.

That's right. It actually means 'man who says "whoooh!" to Monfries.'

 

[Aphrodite]

That's right. It actually means 'man who says "whoooh!" to Monfries.'
View attachment 1113601

Pretty sure Carrots is still eligible for the NRS.

 

[Red_man2008]

Carlton with the 6th (weitering) and 19th (Jones) best KP defender.
10th (docherty) and 15th (saad) best general defender
13th best KP forward (McKay)
5th (Fogarty) and 10th (gibbons) best general forward.
13th best mid (Walsh)
Wing we have no one - what a surprise
4th best mid-fwd (Williams)
7th best ruck (Pittonet)

How are we outside the 8 again? Without looking at other teams id say our side has a more balanced statistical team than any other in the AFL.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Carlton with the 6th (weitering) and 19th (Jones) best KP defender.
10th (docherty) and 15th (saad) best general defender
13th best KP forward (McKay)
5th (Fogarty) and 10th (gibbons) best general forward.
13th best mid (Walsh)
Wing we have no one - what a surprise
4th best mid-fwd (Williams)
7th best ruck (Pittonet)

How are we outside the 8 again? Without looking at other teams id say our side has a more balanced statistical team than any other in the AFL.

Key defenders are about right.
Doc and Saad are nowhere near that high
Harry is top 6
Fog and Gibbo.....someone is taking the piss
Walsh is top 10
Williams
Pitto... you must be ****ing kidding

Source.... my own logical observations