Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[HBF]

Disagree on Pittonet's total output, and Newman was always keeping a spot warm for Williamson IMO.

Understand your viewpoint though.

Pittonet has been up and down thats for sure. However what he has produced over what we expected is pretty good.

 

[Jimmae]

Newman is a long term player. Replacing Simmo/SPS in the backline.
Also while he's been good Pitto has certainly not cemented his spot.

Newman is 27, and when they're fit, I'd put him behind Docherty, Plowman, Marchbank, Simpson, SPS and Williamson, and most of them are fit. We need running defenders more than anything else right now (a genuine KPD to develop alongside Macreadie would be nice), and Newman does not fit that bill.

Pittonet has been up and down thats for sure. However what he has produced over what we expected is pretty good.

He was always an upgrade over Phillips, but not someone I would readily describe as a genuine backup. His craft is excellent, but his athletic profile is not great, even for the position.

 

[Lace_Out]

Newman is 27, and when they're fit, I'd put him behind Docherty, Plowman, Marchbank, Simpson, SPS and Williamson, and most of them are fit. We need running defenders more than anything else right now (a genuine KPD to develop alongside Macreadie would be nice), and Newman does not fit that bill.


He was always an upgrade over Phillips, but not someone I would readily describe as a genuine backup. His craft is excellent, but his athletic profile is not great, even for the position.

Is BSOS not a genuine defender being developed in our reserves backline?

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[Arr0w]

The difference between Pitts good games (Gawn, Goldstein and English) and his bad(Marshall, Ladhams and Ceglar) has been unacceptable and unless he can narrow the margin he doesn't have a future as our No1 ruck. A key factor in our losses.

Pitts isn't our number 1 ruckman, he is just keeping it warm for the likes of TDK

Club targeted a player that was more durable, aggressive and had some form of upside

The other options were moved in in Lobbe and Phillips

It's an improvement, however marginal

 

[BoundbyKreuze]

Pitts isn't our number 1 ruckman, he is just keeping it warm for the likes of TDK

Club targeted a player that was more durable, aggressive and had some form of upside

The other options were moved in in Lobbe and Phillips

It's an improvement, however marginal

At some stage we need to let TDK okay and learn his ruck craft against the best. English is doing it, Ladhams currently, historically Grundy and Kreuzer did it. Others have taken the slow route. I’d love to hold TDK back until he’s cherry ripe and breaks out instantly like Marshall.

 

[Arr0w]

At some stage we need to let TDK okay and learn his ruck craft against the best. English is doing it, Ladhams currently, historically Grundy and Kreuzer did it. Others have taken the slow route. I’d love to hold TDK back until he’s cherry ripe and breaks out instantly like Marshall.

I get that, but he is not 18. Had a couple of years in the system and while we have injuries to Charlie, concerns with Harry and Levi, it is the perfect time to play him as a forward/backup to Pittonet

He will make mistakes, be under done at times, but better to get games into him now so when we are a finals contender, he understands what it takes

 

[BoundbyKreuze]

I get that, but he is not 18. Had a couple of years in the system and while we have injuries to Charlie, concerns with Harry and Levi, it is the perfect time to play him as a forward/backup to Pittonet

He will make mistakes, be under down at times, but better to get games into him now so when we are a finals contender, he understands what it takes

The next two games will tell the story of TDK. If we lose both he plays next up.

 

[Arr0w]

The next two games will tell the story of TDK. If we lose both he plays next up.

For some strange reason, I believe Teague/Club want a mature squad out there each week, in essence can we get to play finals.

I hope that's not the case as I think that thinking is flawed.

Play the kids if they are on par with older players, TDK over Moore is a no brainer for mine

We might see more youth after the Eagles game

 

[HARKER]

For some strange reason, I believe Teague/Club want a mature squad out there each week, in essence can we get to play finals.
I hope that's not the case as I think that thinking is flawed.
Play the kids if they are on par with older players, TDK over Moore is a no brainer for mine
We might see more youth after the Eagles game

Makes for an interesting discussion, doesn't it?
I understand what is happening if I was Teague, but from here, my approach would be a little different.

It will come about and has to come about - That is to say, we have to get the players we feel/know to be best 22 next year, exposed this year.
It's a tricky position to be in right now, as this year won't provide the CFC a premiership, yet it's not impossible that next year could.

 

[BlueBlood15]

Makes for an interesting discussion, doesn't it?
I understand what is happening if I was Teague, but from here, my approach would be a little different.

It will come about and has to come about - That is to say, we have to get the players we feel/know to be best 22 next year, exposed this year.
It's a tricky position to be in right now, as this year won't provide the CFC a premiership, yet it's not impossible that next year could.

Agreed it’s time to introduce or re-introduce some of our younger guys into the team. Think our hand may be forced by the schedule soon. Due to this “bye”, we still haven’t reached the really condensed part of the schedule. A 9 day break to West Coast and 6 days to Freo. For the teams already playing off 4-5 day breaks consistently, we’re seeing mass changes - a lot classified as “managed”. So, unless the MC are absolutely hell bent on seeing our senior players in the side every week, we should see Eddie, Simmo, Murph etc managed soon and replaced by younger guys biding their time in the 2s.

 

[HARKER]

Agreed it’s time to introduce or re-introduce some of our younger guys into the team. Think our hand may be forced by the schedule soon. Due to this “bye”, we still haven’t reached the really condensed part of the schedule. A 9 day break to West Coast and 6 days to Freo. For the teams already playing off 4-5 day breaks consistently, we’re seeing mass changes - a lot classified as “managed”. So, unless the MC are absolutely hell bent on seeing our senior players in the side every week, we should see Eddie, Simmo, Murph etc managed soon and replaced by younger guys biding their time in the 2s.

It's not easy, but it's somewhat easier when your job isn't on the line.
Teague may not push the rest of the MC on moves just yet and may not cut across Austin for his wants just yet, either.

It's the role of the club now to keep all the factions (?) in their right place. No more cross-pollination we saw/heard of last year.
Every year is important but right now, we have to have the club aligned in what is required to make us a force next year, onwards. That's how I see it.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Newman is 27, and when they're fit, I'd put him behind Docherty, Plowman, Marchbank, Simpson, SPS and Williamson, and most of them are fit. We need running defenders more than anything else right now (a genuine KPD to develop alongside Macreadie would be nice), and Newman does not fit that bill.

Frankly, none of our half-backs are setting the world on fire. Nowhere near enough run out of the back half and it shows in the scores on rebounds. It makes me think we should target Zac Williams during the off-season.

 

[Jimmae]

Is BSOS not a genuine defender being developed in our reserves backline?

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My bad, completely blanked on BSOS. May still need one though, depending on what position Macreadie winds up developing in (if at all).

Ben needs a lot of work on the attacking side of his game though.

 

[windows1]

Newman is 27, and when they're fit, I'd put him behind Docherty, Plowman, Marchbank, Simpson, SPS and Williamson, and most of them are fit. We need running defenders more than anything else right now (a genuine KPD to develop alongside Macreadie would be nice), and Newman does not fit that bill.


He was always an upgrade over Phillips, but not someone I would readily describe as a genuine backup. His craft is excellent, but his athletic profile is not great, even for the position.

What? He’s not good enough to be a ‘genuine backup’? Jesus Christ. If you could just run us through all the ‘backup’ ruckmen in the comp better than Pitto that would be great.

 

[windows1]

I get that, but he is not 18. Had a couple of years in the system and while we have injuries to Charlie, concerns with Harry and Levi, it is the perfect time to play him as a forward/backup to Pittonet

He will make mistakes, be under down at times, but better to get games into him now so when we are a finals contender, he understands what it takes

Showed me plenty in the preseason. He’s not strong enough for boundary throw ins but at centre bounces he’s a terrific option. Complements Pitto very well.

 

[Manhattanite]

For some strange reason, I believe Teague/Club want a mature squad out there each week, in essence can we get to play finals.

I hope that's not the case as I think that thinking is flawed.

Play the kids if they are on par with older players, TDK over Moore is a no brainer for mine

We might see more youth after the Eagles game

Two things:

1) We need to play to win this year - we spent many years playing for the long-term seasons ahead - now we need to only focus on winning the next game and the won after that - if we don’t make finals this year or next then it becomes that much harder to a) recruit guns b) retain Cripps

2) TDK didn’t get much time at all playing ruck in the reserves/VFL last few years because of Lobbe and Phillips. Now that he is finally playing ruck there he’s probably better off there than playing as a forward at AFL level.






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[Arr0w]

Two things:

1) We need to play to win this year - we spent many years playing for the long-term seasons ahead - now we need to only focus on winning the next game and the won after that - if we don’t make finals this year or next then it becomes that much harder to a) recruit guns b) retain Cripps

2) TDK didn’t get much time at all playing ruck in the reserves/VFL last few years because of Lobbe and Phillips. Now that he is finally playing ruck there he’s probably better off there than playing as a forward at AFL level.






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1 No doubt the mantra is being more competitive/winning, which has a great flow on effect, but balance is still important, something the Lions did very well despite only winning 5 games in 2018. They still attracted good players to the club

2 TDK is a modern day prototype. May not be the best ruckman, but will be a threat resting forward. No elite ruckman has won a flag in the last 10 years, it's more about versatility. Get him in, now

 

[Gethelred]

The difference between Pitts good games (Gawn, Goldstein and English) and his bad(Marshall, Ladhams and Ceglar) has been unacceptable and unless he can narrow the margin he doesn't have a future as our No1 ruck. A key factor in our losses.

I disagree.

One of our issues is that, when Pitto is beaten, our midfield falls apart. One player - and especially a ruckman - cannot be so important to a team's chances.

 

[Sector 7G]

I disagree.

One of our issues is that, when Pitto is beaten, our midfield falls apart. One player - and especially a ruckman - cannot be so important to a team's chances.

The problem is more around the grounds, where his man has made considerable contributions and he has been invisible

 

[Gethelred]

The problem is more around the grounds, where his man has made considerable contributions and he has been invisible

I am not concerned about Pittonett. You're going to win some - and when you win, it's by heaps due to his hitouts to advantage - and you'll lose some. What I am concerned about is how we go to pieces when he is not winning. Even when he neutralises the contest, we're in real danger of losing the clearance and completely conceding the ball.

Dominant rucks are great, but they do what I'm talking above; they're potent weapons when they're up, but because you plan your clearance setup around winning you are compromised when you lose. I want us set up to be able to shark opposition taps all the time, but able to take advantage of Pittonett when he's winning, getting the best of both worlds.

There's also the fact that we change rucks more than anyone when we have a full complement of KPF's in and Cas is free to be his true self. Cas - unlike Pitto - is super mobile; they complement each other perfectly. We haven't been able to do it since WB; since then, Gov's been injured and Harry's been in and out. We're effectively arguing about how plan C isn't working.

 

[SurreyBlue]

The problem is with our centre bounce setups. We don't seem to have any idea how to combat some opposition setups when their ruckman gets on top, they start to win the contested ball and / or their midfield is structured to break on the outside. It's not just pace, it's our lack of setup.

 

[F_therest]

Exactly right, so does it come down to personnel in the middle or gameplan? Or defensive effort?

Our midfield isn't good enough yet unfortunately...I feel that whenever our midfield is on top of breaks even we win, but when they are getting beaten we lose...they are typically the main culprit for opposition avalanches of scores in quick time.

Also as much as we love Cripps (even if he's having a down year) the fact he's quite slow and not great at spreading from the contest is not a good thing and can cost us defensively...outside the contest Crippa doesn't really move a whole lot. This issue is then compounded when surrounded by guys like Setterfield & Kennedy who aren't the quickest, and when against sides with quick midfielders. It results in times where the opposition just slice us up with ease.

 

[Gethelred]

Exactly right, so does it come down to personnel in the middle or gameplan? Or defensive effort?

Gameplan, definitely gameplan.

Think about it this way; we play grounds with lots of space better than the grounds we don't. We also are perfectly fine defending the slow break but the fast break catches us off guard; this suggests we need time to get back behind the ball, or that we turn the ball over too close to the back line to react quickly enough. These are - in my opinion - structural weaknesses rather than effort based.

I suggest we condense our defensive zone deeper into the back half of the ground; not a high press, but a deep one. We have strong intercept KPD's and smalls in the comp; we outnumber our opponents at the balldrop, and flick it out the other side, holding in part some of our structure ahead of the ball to allow for the quick break from the back half. We surround our slow ballwinning mids and our contested marking KPP's with pacy outside runners and dynamic users to slice opposition apart on rebound.

Essentially, the way we beat the Dogs. We looked stuffed after the game, because we pressed deep and we spent all day spreading their defense and sprinting back to defensive 50 to plug up the space.

 

[Kleenex Crew]

Pod Drop Our latest discussion.

 

[Eiffel 65]

The difference between Pitts good games (Gawn, Goldstein and English) and his bad(Marshall, Ladhams and Ceglar) has been unacceptable and unless he can narrow the margin he doesn't have a future as our No1 ruck. A key factor in our losses.

Yea, I've noticed that too, however, I still think the signs are very good for Pittonet.

I think he can build that consistency as he gains more experience at AFL level.

Just remember he's only played around 15 games. Still very early in his career.