Strategy The case for a third tall forward

[Coobk001]

We shoulda drafted Pods, yes we all had a laugh at some of his inept early year performances, but he hasn't been that bad lately, and would be handy in with Schulz and Hoff.

Oh god no, is there a worst post of the year award? Sorry Edgie, but no. Just no.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I don't know why I bother to continue trying to stick up for him - people will read what they want to read. But in no way has Butch had a poor season, just up and down.

He's had a poor AFL season. He been serviceable at SANFL - up and down as you say, but most of us have hoped that he would dominate 2/3rds of games. He should be busting down the door for selection but isn't.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

Based on what? His performances in the Tasmanian state league? His 8 goals in 9 games this year?

Sarcastica

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

He's had a poor AFL season. He been serviceable at SANFL - up and down as you say, but most of us have hoped that he would dominate 2/3rds of games. He should be busting down the door for selection but isn't.

He's played 3 AFL games and in two of them he was good, dropped after a performance where he wasn't the worst in our team and we went small.

He could kick 5 every week and he wouldn't be getting picked with the structure we seem to be running with.

Round 3: 5 goals
Round 4: "the diarrhoea game"
Round 5: 5 goals
Round 6: 2 goals
Round 7: 3 goals
Round 8: 3 goals
Round 10: 1 goal
Round 11: 3 goals
Round 12: 1 goal
Round 13: 0 goals

So he's got at least 3 goals in half of his games this year. He may not be "dominating" for two thirds of games, but he's playing well for someone coming off an interrupted pre-season and is finally getting some continuity to his game.

And these are just the goals he's kicked... think about how many opportunities he's worked hard to get and subsequently missed!

 

[Powerade 08]

He's played 3 AFL games and in two of them he was good

drum beating intensifies

 

[El_Scorcho]

A big part of my annoyance with this whole thing is that Butcher should never have been dropped to begin with.

He'd been playing well until a quiet game where most of the side had a dirty day against North where he was replaced with O'Shea, to a chorus of "Oh but he's not hitting the scoreboard, he really needs to be hitting the scoreboard"

He then kicked bags of 5 on two occasions over the next 3 weeks before settling in as one of the most prolific KPFs in the SANFL. Opposition clubs started to put a lot more work into him.

His dropping and the subsequent abandonment of the 3 tall forward structure has been incredibly frustrating and has cost us games.

 

[Edgepower]

The only place you would have heard he was third in line is from maybe a couple of posters on this board - before Shaw came back a couple jumped on the Harvey bandwagon saying he was performing better than Butch, which was never even close to being the case.

Shaw has done well since coming back, but Butch is still taking the opposition's best defender and is what, 4th in SANFL goal-kicking after missing a couple of matches and playing sick in another... apparently that's going backwards, even though it's better than he's ever done. Yeah, he's had a couple of quieter games, but he hasn't been straight up terrible in either, just average, and before that he was kicking 3 - 5 goals every week. He was our best key forward in the first half against Sturt (I was there and basically just watched the forward line for the first half) but all anyone will remember is the terrible shot on goal. It was a poor option, but the wind was ridiculous that day and he probably didn't have enough confidence in his kick so tried something different which obviously didn't come off.

I don't know why I bother to continue trying to stick up for him - people will read what they want to read. But in no way has Butch had a poor season, just up and down.

Glad to hear and look forward to seeing him carve it up thanks for the update. My comment about being third in line was more looking to next year

 

[Schulzenfest]

drum beating intensifies

Tell us more about how the guy who is fifth in the SANFL goalkicking is lucky to be getting a game at that level.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Tell us more about how the guy who is fifth in the SANFL goalkicking is lucky to be getting a game at that level.

Yeah i've heard some pretty horrendous shit about Butcher this year but that probably takes the cake.

 

[PA88]

El Scorcho needs to ask Hinkley directly why Butcher is not being played. I don't particularly know which way to lean to be honest. I'm only expressing what I observe.

Butcher has played some good sanfl games, there is no denying it. The good has been really relieving, but the bad has been exhaustingly depressing. The afl side needs help and he isn't being called upon, this is not a good sign.

Harvey is not as developed and Shaw has come in recent weeks to drag the Magpies over the line with his exceptional marking, reading of the game, and kicking straight goals. Shaw is heading in the right direction, but he looks a little underdone when the ball is at his feet, maybe that's due to not playing enough and a late start to the season. The experts know best, and maybe he will get an afl gig shortly.

Butcher has kicked bags of goals but people should read 1954's description of how he managed to kick them. I think '54 nails it well.

People say his field kicking is good. I've watched every Magpies game this season bar Clare and I've seen Butcher delicately kick about half a dozen field passes this whole season with no pressure on him and fluff a couple, so not too bad but I don't think this really qualifies mentioning as it simply paints over the real issue ... goal kicking.

As for him being a crowd favourite, I certainly do not get that feeling from the people around me, it has shifted to the opposite, and it is quite disturbing to hear our own laugh at him. Our supporters want him gone, that's where the opinions are moving.

Butcher is taking the best defender. How good are these sanfl defenders? That needs to be considered of course. With Shaw in I don't think the best defender will sit on Butcher.

His kicking is terrible. It is no longer a novelty to watch his development anymore, it is now serious, for him and for the club.

What I am uncertain about is if Butcher was in the afl, why wouldn't the opposition give more attention to Westhoff and Schulz and 'invite' us to kick to Butcher?

 

[Young Gun #6]

Butcher needs to stop spending so much time with his greyhounds and focus on improving his footy skills.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Butcher has kicked bags of goals but people should read 1954's description of how he managed to kick them. I think '54 nails it well.

Why does that matter? Why aren't the other key forwards in the comp kicking goals in the same way? Shouldn't it be another string to his bow that he can kick goals that are unconventional for key forwards, especially when we have two very good key forwards in the AFL who can do it in a more traditional sense?

Butcher is taking the best defender. How good are these sanfl defenders? That needs to be considered of course. With Shaw in I don't think the best defender will sit on Butcher.

Well if the best defender isn't crash hot, imagine the ability of the second best defender who is playing on Shaw/Harvey (they might start changing to Shaw, but they haven't yet).

What I am uncertain about is if Butcher was in the afl, why wouldn't the opposition give more attention to Westhoff and Schulz and 'invite' us to kick to Butcher?

As opposed to what... not having anyone there? So because there isn't a third tall, teams aren't going to give more attention to Westhoff and Schulz? I don't know how this makes sense, or I might be reading it wrong.

 

[edgie]

Why does that matter? Why aren't the other key forwards in the comp kicking goals in the same way? Shouldn't it be another string to his bow that he can kick goals that are unconventional for key forwards, especially when we have two very good key forwards in the AFL who can do it in a more traditional sense?



Well if the best defender isn't crash hot, imagine the ability of the second best defender who is playing on Shaw/Harvey (they might start changing to Shaw, but they haven't yet).



As opposed to what... not having anyone there? So because there isn't a third tall, teams aren't going to give more attention to Westhoff and Schulz? I don't know how this makes sense, or I might be reading it wrong.

I think he is meaning teams will try harder to close those 2 down and bait us to kick to Butcher as his bad kicking will not worry them one bit.





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[El_Scorcho]

I think he is meaning teams will try harder to close those 2 down and bait us to kick to Butcher as his bad kicking will not worry them one bit.

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Yeah, but what Honeyboy Wilson is saying is that it's not logical that they can put more pressure on Schulz and Westhoff than they are now, given that we only play 2 forwards. If we picked Butcher I guess they could just put nobody on him, hope he misses, and rely on score launches from kick ins, but even given that, if teams could be putting more pressure on Schulz and Westhoff than they are now, they'd already be doing it.

Butcher would help us stretch defences.

 

[itisnt2hard]

Yeah, but what Honeyboy Wilson is saying is that it's not logical that they can put more pressure on Schulz and Westhoff than they are now, given that we only play 2 forwards. If we picked Butcher I guess they could just put nobody on him, hope he misses, and rely on score launches from kick ins, but even given that, if teams could be putting more pressure on Schulz and Westhoff than they are now, they'd already be doing it.

Butcher would help us stretch defences.

El dont get to attached. Long distance relationships hardly ever work out. 015 will see new starts and old finishes for many. Just saying. Both brothers will end up back in Vic.

 

[Seanybruz]

Watching North dismantle Hawthorn there is so much more to having 2-3 tall targets than kicking bags of goals. Having Black & Brown take pressure off Petrie is a big reason they're picking the Hawks apart.

I like this Sideshow Bob looking Ben Brown, he's similar to Butcher & even has a weird (though surprisingly accurate) kicking action. He isn't kicking many goals but his lead up work is similar to what we saw from JB in the first showdown, he's got a great work ethic & provides a contest.

I'm hoping Butch starts playing to the standard he was 4-5 weeks ago, we could really do with a third tall to maintain a proper structure & allow Hoff to play Mr fix it which will be needed for the next month & a bit.

 

[edgie]

Butch will be fine in the SANFL, the winter doldrums are setting in, not ideal conditions for him, and he is adjusting to life sharing the line with Shaw.

Having said all that, he should be being fine in the AFL

 

[Powerstufff]

He's played 3 AFL games and in two of them he was good, dropped after a performance where he wasn't the worst in our team ...

I can't remember Butcher against Carlton. He was adequate in R2 against Adelaide. But against the Kangas he was worst on the ground by a country mile and that last game may eventually have proved to be a career killer. The occasional adequate game in the SANFL is unlikely to compensate for the memory of that. If Butcher is ever likely to play for the Power again he has to play with effort and skill for at least a couple of Maggies games in a row.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I can't remember Butcher against Carlton. He was adequate in R2 against Adelaide. But against the Kangas he was worst on the ground by a country mile and that last game may eventually have proved to be a career killer. The occasional adequate game in the SANFL is unlikely to compensate for the memory of that. If Butcher is ever likely to play for the Power again he has to play with effort and skill for at least a couple of Maggies games in a row.

Uh nop.

Tom Jonas was the worst player on the ground that day, doing basically nothing right and playing the worst game of his career.

Butcher was bad, but not even bad enough for Macca19 to give him a zero. Jonas got one. Butcher got a score of 1, a score he shared with 4 other players. Chad Wingard of all people has had 2 zeroes this year. Some of the outrageous negative hyperbole used to justify Butcher's dropping after that game is mind boggling. He had a down day as a developing KPF in the 2nd worst game we've played as a team this season. He certainly wasn't a standout in terms of poor play.

But hey, even if it was the worst individual game ever played by an AFL player, that's still a ridiculous reason to write a player off forever.
Just as bad as the negative hyperbole regarding the North game has been the constant playing down of his SANFL form. He's 4th in the Ken Farmer, and has kicked multiple goals in something like 8/11 games while taking the best defender and being a leader in our forward line.

But the reasons to keep him out have come thick and fast all year and most of those reasons have been poor ones.

First it was "Oh but he has to learn to hit the scoreboard", then he kicked two bags of 5 in his first 3 SANFL games.

Then it was "Oh but he's not kicking the right type of goals" as if you don't get 6 points unless you lead, mark and kick a Matthew Lloyd drop punt straight through the middle.

For some of the season it's been "I'd take Harvey before Butcher" which is just laughably moronic at this stage of their careers regardless of how you look at it.

More recently it's been "We don't actually need the extra tall" despite the fact that it has been painfully obvious in several games this year that we do, and the coaches have even said they'd like us to be playing another tall.

Really recently it's been "Mason Shaw is WAY ahead of Butcher" off the back of a few decent games, despite not having done anything that Butcher hasn't done in terms of lighting up the scoreboard and not really getting close to Butch in terms of defensive pressure.


I'd be really happy to see Shaw in the side (as long as we were picking another tall) but i'm ****ing sick of the over the top bullshit that is used on this board to bring Butcher down. It's no different to what Pittard, O'Shea, Westhoff, Schulz, or any number of other former scapegoats have received throughout their career and most of it is fallacious tripe.

 

[PA88]

Why does that matter? Why aren't the other key forwards in the comp kicking goals in the same way? Shouldn't it be another string to his bow that he can kick goals that are unconventional for key forwards, especially when we have two very good key forwards in the AFL who can do it in a more traditional sense?



Well if the best defender isn't crash hot, imagine the ability of the second best defender who is playing on Shaw/Harvey (they might start changing to Shaw, but they haven't yet).



As opposed to what... not having anyone there? So because there isn't a third tall, teams aren't going to give more attention to Westhoff and Schulz? I don't know how this makes sense, or I might be reading it wrong.

Firstly, stop crying if somebody questions Butcher's worth or ability. The guy is not getting selected and I'm not the person making that decision so suck it up and don't let me see those tears again. Get passed the obsession with Butcher. I know he was pick 8 and we don't want the club to be ridiculed if "the future" fades away into 'the past'. If Butcher can't get himself selected and somebody else does and gets the job done, we move on.

Who cares about the other forwards in the sanfl competition. Let's face it, the sanfl defenders are not something to boast about. He may have the best defender on him, great, but it needs to be viewed in perspective. He does kick goals, he finds some freedom for the feed and kicks goals, but he's also taken some grabs and chosen to snap for goal rather than line up for the conventional set shot.

Cory Beard played on Shaw. He'd be one of few decent defenders in the sanfl.

Listen, I'm saying the third tall does not need to be Butcher. At the moment Hinkley is selecting a non-tall ahead of Butcher. Teams are giving their attention to Westhoff and Schulz always, of course, but with Butcher in the side if Port were to get the ball inside 50 to a tall forward, as an opposition coach I would be enticing Port to get the ball to Butcher and take my chances. A smaller defender plays on Butcher to win the ball at ground level at the expense of giving up the high ball to Butcher.

 

[Jetwa5h]

Could probably get Lewis Johnston at the end of the year on the cheap, does not suit our game-plan but with your midfield delivery would probably do very well.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

I see quotes about butcher goal tally...

Then I get told they are junk time goals....

I am torn....TOOORRN

 

[El_Scorcho]

Listen, I'm saying the third tall does not need to be Butcher. At the moment Hinkley is selecting a non-tall ahead of Butcher. Teams are giving their attention to Westhoff and Schulz always, of course, but with Butcher in the side if Port were to get the ball inside 50 to a tall forward, as an opposition coach I would be enticing Port to get the ball to Butcher and take my chances. A smaller defender plays on Butcher to win the ball at ground level at the expense of giving up the high ball to Butcher.

So your plan as an opposition coach would be to put a small on Butcher, allow him to mark basically uncontested then hope that he misses his shots?

Is that seriously what you're arguing?

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

I am on the fence with butch....

I would like him in the team to see if we do really need a 3rd tall as I am not 100% convinced we do

See if he can make it in the big league....just seems so stagnated in his career this year

My biggest fear with butch is his missed shots will cost us so much momentum

 

[Shaucob_Burjan]

Butch doesn't even need to kick goals.

Just ****ing palm it down the ground and let Gray/Wingard/Monfries do the rest.