Society/Culture The distrust of education

[The Punter]

great non response mate

you're argument was that missing school to protest is self defeating

but that's assuming the primary reason they are protesting is for their education which clearly its not

its to draw attention to the issue they are protesting for, and as has been said the best way to draw attention is by doing something that isn't convenient

you're not stupid so I gotta think you're either not for protest or not for this protest, maybe both

but on the other hand we've had decades of bullshit lies about peaceful protest drilled into the public while our right to protest gets eroded so maybe you've just been sucked in by that

The only argument I have made is that by protesting during class time, they are REDUCING the amount of education they are receiving. If an adult protests during work time, others feel the effect most acutely. Students lose class time, students feel the largest effect to their education.

Sure I've read around here plenty of complaints about people being "uneducated". So maybe less class time isn't the answer. The inconvenience is borne by the students by missing class time as well as all others inconvenienced.

IMO the reason for protesting is irrelevant. Students need to be in class so they can receive an education. That is what school is for.

 

[CM86]

The only argument I have made is that by protesting during class time, they are REDUCING the amount of education they are receiving. If an adult protests during work time, others feel the effect most acutely. Students lose class time, students feel the largest effect to their education.

Sure I've read around here plenty of complaints about people being "uneducated". So maybe less class time isn't the answer. The inconvenience is borne by the students by missing class time as well as all others inconvenienced.

IMO the reason for protesting is irrelevant. Students need to be in class so they can receive an education. That is what school is for.

At some point you need to admit that the reason you keep pushing for outcomes that support your party... are influenced by your political position.


You can't keep insisting that other's are being illogical, and you're just helping them understand the truth. Because that's gaslighting.

 

[The Punter]

You can't keep insisting that other's are being illogical, and you're just helping them understand the truth. Because that's gaslighting.

You've literally just described what is being done to me. All I've done is state and defend an opinion.

But the creation of a new language to browbeat people in rhetorical submission is doing everyone a world of good.

 

[CM86]

You've literally just described what is being done to me. All I've done is state and defend an opinion.

But the creation of a new language to browbeat people in rhetorical submission is doing everyone a world of good.

Ok.

So help me understand your position, please.


1. You believe that missing a single day of being in the classroom, Is more harmful than a missed day of school - In general?
2. You believe that missing a single day of being in the classroom, Is more harmful than spending that day actively supporting a position they wish to attend?
3. The main reason a student would miss a day of being in the classroom is because they've been 'groomed' by their teachers?
4. A student wouldn't rather just deal with a regular day, or stay home, instead of some activist cause that they don't agree with?


Please answer the above four questions honestly.

 

[The Punter]

Ok.

So help me understand your position, please.


1. You believe that missing a single day of being in the classroom, Is more harmful than a missed day of school - In general?
2. You believe that missing a single day of being in the classroom, Is more harmful than spending that day actively supporting a position they wish to attend?
3. The main reason a student would miss a day of being in the classroom is because they've been 'groomed' by their teachers?
4. A student wouldn't rather just deal with a regular day, or stay home, instead of some activist cause that they don't agree with?


Please answer the above four questions honestly.

1. Is this about a difference between being in class and other things that take place at school? I think children benefit from being in class and being at school more generally.
2. Yes, especially when they don't need to be mutually exclusive. There have been many well reported protests that have taken place on weekends.
3. I've made no comment on this. I've made no suggestion about who is encouraging students to miss class in order to protest. Most people have many influences on their behaviour. Only teachers are registered by the government to teach our children.
4. I think most students, at the time of their schooling, would rather just miss a regular day. There's a reason who don't treat those under 18 as able to make informed decisions about any aspect of their lives. Students should try to attend class as much as is possibly, health permitting.

 

[owen87]

The only argument I have made is that by protesting during class time, they are REDUCING the amount of education they are receiving. If an adult protests during work time, others feel the effect most acutely. Students lose class time, students feel the largest effect to their education.

Sure I've read around here plenty of complaints about people being "uneducated". So maybe less class time isn't the answer. The inconvenience is borne by the students by missing class time as well as all others inconvenienced.

IMO the reason for protesting is irrelevant. Students need to be in class so they can receive an education. That is what school is for.

Learning about exercising one's civil rights seems educational to me.

 

[The Punter]

Learning about exercising one's civil rights seems educational to me.

One can learn how a law is passed without being a legislator. But I take your point, we merely disagree.

 

[CM86]

1. Is this about a difference between being in class and other things that take place at school? I think children benefit from being in class and being at school more generally.
2. Yes, especially when they don't need to be mutually exclusive. There have been many well reported protests that have taken place on weekends.
3. I've made no comment on this. I've made no suggestion about who is encouraging students to miss class in order to protest. Most people have many influences on their behaviour. Only teachers are registered by the government to teach our children.
4. I think most students, at the time of their schooling, would rather just miss a regular day. There's a reason who don't treat those under 18 as able to make informed decisions about any aspect of their lives. Students should try to attend class as much as is possibly, health permitting.

So help me understand your position, please.


Please answer the above four questions honestly.

I'm specifically asking you for your explicit opinion, as to the reason for your position.



I'm not asking for vague implications. I'm asking you why YOU have a repeated and explicit position on this.


If all you can do is point vaguely at othering or the reasoning of others, what's your personal reason for supporting it?
If you have a genuine reason for YOUR position, can you please explain it?



I don't believe you will/can because of your political position.
And as you've made yourself known publicly, you're aware that you can be called back to previous comments.

 

[owen87]

One can learn how a law is passed without being a legislator. But I take your point, we merely disagree.

Of the myriad of random things students learn throughout their schooling life, I'd say learning about, and engaging in, a protest is a long way from the least useful thing they'll learn.

 

[The Punter]

I'm specifically asking you for your explicit opinion, as to the reason for your position.



I'm not asking for vague implications. I'm asking you why YOU have a repeated and explicit position on this.


If all you can do is point vaguely at othering or the reasoning of others, what's your personal reason for supporting it?
If you have a genuine reason for YOUR position, can you please explain it?



I don't believe you will/can because of your political position.
And as you've made yourself known publicly, you're aware that you can be called back to previous comments.

Are you looking for a confession? I believe the best place for children to learn is in the classroom. All I have said is that protesting during class time comes at a cost to the child missing class. It appears I can't give you the answer you want, so here we are. Genuine is a judgement - it's obvious I can't really have any influence over what you think.

I am a member of the Liberal Party and work in the education sector.

If you want to refer me back to previous comments, feel free. I'll do my best to provide an explanation, but I cannot guarantee the explanation will be to your satisfaction.

 

[The Punter]

Of the myriad of random things students learn throughout their schooling life, I'd say learning about, and engaging in, a protest is a long way from the least useful thing they'll learn.

If we could organise the protest to take place during the lesson in class that is useless, then we might be getting somewhere.

I am not for one moment going to suggest what lessons that take place in class are useless, however.

 

[CM86]

Are you looking for a confession? I believe the best place for children to learn is in the classroom. All I have said is that protesting during class time comes at a cost to the child missing class. It appears I can't give you the answer you want, so here we are. Genuine is a judgement - it's obvious I can't really have any influence over what you think.

I am a member of the Liberal Party and work in the education sector.

If you want to refer me back to previous comments, feel free. I'll do my best to provide an explanation, but I cannot guarantee the explanation will be to your satisfaction.

OK.

As a member of a political party, who specifically works in the education sector...

Can you please link me to like... 5 posts at least, where you've made an effort to imply education in the classroom is important.
AND/OR where you've addressed anyone attacking education for 'indoctrination'?


My point for calling you and your party out, is the FACT that you've never ever addressed things like funded disinformation programs from major corps such as the below:

[CURRENTLY LEFT BLANK DUE TO LINK NO LONGER EXISTING] - I'll try to find a screenshot.


But you've taken major and repeated issue with students doing something themselves...

Square the cube for me, please?

 

[CM86]

Lessons - Minerals Education Coalition

The Minerals Education Coalition’s (MEC) mission is to identify, produce and disseminate fact-based K-12 minerals education lessons and activities and to inform and educate the general public about the importance of mining in their everyday lives.

mineralseducationcoalition.org

Every single existing news article has now been wiped. So I can't link you to anything more than one of the actual sites for the lesson plans.
Lessons - Minerals Education Coalition

 

[The Punter]

OK.

As a member of a political party, who specifically works in the education sector...

Can you please link me to like... 5 posts at least, where you've made an effort to imply education in the classroom is important.
AND/OR where you've addressed anyone attacking education for 'indoctrination'?


My point for calling you and your party out, is the FACT that you've never ever addressed things like funded disinformation programs from major corps such as the below:

[CURRENTLY LEFT BLANK DUE TO LINK NO LONGER EXISTING] - I'll try to find a screenshot.


But you've taken major and repeated issue with students doing something themselves...

Square the cube for me, please?

Those five posts don't exist, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe it. I think there are no great Madonna songs either, but there aren't five posts here (or any other than this one) where I say that. There's a whole width and breadth of stuff I believe that I haven't posted on here. Yet. This self-imposed standard is unreasonable IMO.

Ask me anything and I'll answer. I can't guarantee you'll be satisfied with the answer. Many on here don't like my explanation of where I make criticisms of organisations I am a member of, but that situation is not about to change.

I think students should attend class because it is good for them. They don't have to skip class to protest. That's my argument.

EDIT - I don't believe the American education system is one we should be modelling our own system on.

 

[owen87]

If we could organise the protest to take place during the lesson in class that is useless, then we might be getting somewhere.

I am not for one moment going to suggest what lessons that take place in class are useless, however.

Who said it was all useless?

I'd think learning how to exercise your democratic right to protest is quite a useful skill in a democracy.

 

[The Punter]

Who said it was all useless?

I'd think learning how to exercise your democratic right to protest is quite a useful skill in a democracy.

Is this the point where I get all stroppy at you for saying the same thing over and over again?

In all seriousness, I think we've both said our piece.

 

[CM86]

Those five posts don't exist, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe it. I think there are no great Madonna songs either, but there aren't five posts here (or any other than this one) where I say that. There's a whole width and breadth of stuff I believe that I haven't posted on here. Yet. This self-imposed standard is unreasonable IMO.

I stopped reading here, to reply.

Because you're just becoming to obviously trained and impossible to engage.


I asked you a specific political topic, in which you're actively engaged in. And in an area that you've been active in with a near 20 year old account...

You completely avoided actually engaging or responding, by pointing out that we don't have some irrelevant position on an irrelevant topic in an area that's irrelevant to your position.
That's pure dishonesty from you. And it's trained deliverance.

You didn't once post in opposition about people protesting vaccination and masks in Vic, did you?
The impact on students attending class based on infection would be magnitudes above a single day protest.
But you know that.
You're aware of that.
You're purely here to diffuse your parties position.

 

[The Punter]

I stopped reading here, to reply.

Because you're just becoming to obviously trained and impossible to engage.


I asked you a specific political topic, in which you're actively engaged in. And in an area that you've been active in with a near 20 year old account...

You completely avoided actually engaging or responding, by pointing out that we don't have some irrelevant position on an irrelevant topic in an area that's irrelevant to your position.
That's pure dishonesty from you. And it's trained deliverance.

You didn't once post in opposition about people protesting vaccination and masks in Vic, did you?
The impact on students attending class based on infection would be magnitudes above a single day protest.
But you know that.
You're aware of that.
You're purely here to diffuse your parties position.

I certainly advocated getting vaccinated on my socials, and did get vaccinated.

My argument is pro-going to class rather than anti-protest. But that doesn't satisfy you. I will have to live with that.

Most of those pro-vaccination protests were on Saturdays by memory? I was too busy getting vaccinated and adhering to the mask wearing requirements to attend them. Not that I wanted to attend them or ever advocated someone should attend them. In the end I am being accused of a sin of omission.

Any further response from me will have to wait - logging off for the day now. Everyone have a pleasant evening.

 

[Chief]

My argument is pro-going to class rather than anti-protest.

In which case the kids can put in some extra time to catch up on whatever they might have missed.

I know during Covid my kids did the work in 2 or 2 1/2 days. Kids catch up after illness. They go off on early holidays.

 

[ShanDog]

This is a major issue for Australian education. It runs deep - can't just be solved by becoming very 'old school' and strict within the boundaries of the school (though that needs to happen to some degree). Much of the problem is due to external influence. Sadly, the kids who have it the worst are usually from low SES areas who need the education the most.

Australian classrooms are among the ‘least favourable’ for discipline in the OECD. Here’s how to improve student behaviour

A major international report says the “disciplinary climate” in Australian schools is among the “least favourable” in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

theconversation.com

The OECD report looks at many aspects of Australia’s education system. And identifies many strengths, such as how Australian students view their teachers positively and teachers have comparatively high levels of job satisfaction.

But it also found the “disciplinary climate” in schools in Australia was among the least favourable in the OECD according to student reports.

 

[owen87]

This is a major issue for Australian education. It runs deep - can't just be solved by becoming very 'old school' and strict within the boundaries of the school (though that needs to happen to some degree). Much of the problem is due to external influence. Sadly, the kids who have it the worst are usually from low SES areas who need the education the most.

Australian classrooms are among the ‘least favourable’ for discipline in the OECD. Here’s how to improve student behaviour

A major international report says the “disciplinary climate” in Australian schools is among the “least favourable” in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

theconversation.com

The OECD report looks at many aspects of Australia’s education system. And identifies many strengths, such as how Australian students view their teachers positively and teachers have comparatively high levels of job satisfaction.

But it also found the “disciplinary climate” in schools in Australia was among the least favourable in the OECD according to student reports.

From what teacher friends have said, parents are really bad these days, treating the teachers as babysitters and often taking limited responsibility for the actions of their kids.

 

[ShanDog]

From what teacher friends have said, parents are really bad these days, treating the teachers as babysitters and often taking limited responsibility for the actions of their kids.

I've taught in a bad neighbourhood for the last four years. I don't generally get the same level of poor behaviour from students as other teachers, but I've seen plenty of that, as well as general disengagement from the parents regarding their kid's education. But there's also another element to it that I think doesn't really get discussed - most of the time, when I have to talk to a parent about an issue, they've been supportive. The amount of times I heard, "I'm sorry, I really don't know what to do with him/her. I've tried everything." Now, that might or might not be true, but it's fairly clear there's deeper or more complicated problems in disadvantaged areas that need to be improved, and perhaps even across the board when it comes to culture and expectations for behaviour given the PISA reports. I wonder if we've become too lax across all levels of society, and that's fed into the already existing behaviour issue in disadvantaged areas to make it worse.

 

[Gethelred]

I've taught in a bad neighbourhood for the last four years. I don't generally get the same level of poor behaviour from students as other teachers, but I've seen plenty of that, as well as general disengagement from the parents regarding their kid's education. But there's also another element to it that I think doesn't really get discussed - most of the time, when I have to talk to a parent about an issue, they've been supportive. The amount of times I heard, "I'm sorry, I really don't know what to do with him/her. I've tried everything." Now, that might or might not be true, but it's fairly clear there's deeper or more complicated problems in disadvantaged areas that need to be improved, and perhaps even across the board when it comes to culture and expectations for behaviour given the PISA reports. I wonder if we've become too lax across all levels of society, and that's fed into the already existing behaviour issue in disadvantaged areas to make it worse.

We needed to remove corporal punishment of children, but one wonders how effective the consequences we replaced it with are in inculcating good behaviour or disincentivising bad/undesirable behaviour.

 

[ShanDog]

We needed to remove corporal punishment of children, but one wonders how effective the consequences we replaced it with are in inculcating good behaviour or disincentivising bad/undesirable behaviour.

As much as I'd like to taser kids who annoy me in the classroom, it was probably for the best that we stopped physical punishment

Seems like the social pressure to behave has reduced. Or changed somehow.

 

[Gethelred]

As much as I'd like to taser kids who annoy me in the classroom, it was probably for the best that we stopped physical punishment

Seems like the social pressure to behave has reduced. Or changed somehow.

Honestly, I think you can chart the decline in respect for authority in the Anglosphere to the amount of households with both parents at work.