Society/Culture The distrust of education

[Chief]

Honestly, I think you can chart the decline in respect for authority in the Anglosphere to the amount of households with both parents at work.

Given the return kids have gotten from trust and respect, I don't blame a lot of them for disengaging.

Just one look at the enquiries into institutional child abuse and you can see it plain as day.

 

[CM86]

Honestly, I think you can chart the decline in respect for authority in the Anglosphere to the amount of households with both parents at work.

Could you expand on this, please?

My interpretation of it isn't a position I believed you would hold.

 

[Roylion]

From what teacher friends have said, parents are really bad these days, treating the teachers as babysitters and often taking limited responsibility for the actions of their kids.

A good article on classroom discipline and different approaches by different schools is here, (although it may not be freely available to all).

 

[Gethelred]

Could you expand on this, please?

My interpretation of it isn't a position I believed you would hold.

When we replaced corporal punishment, we did so on the pretext that parents would actively parent their children. Neoliberal market forces meant that over time, parents could spend less and less time with their children; this necessitates that those children receive less parenting, both in terms of active parenting ('Johnny, put that down!') and in terms of relationships.

Most children don't spend nearly enough time with their parents these days, to the child's detriment. Their role models become either other adults in their life or their friends.

Covid - in my opinion - did two things round where I used to be. One, it made all the children who used to be able to avoid their parents - and parents that used to be able to avoid their children - spend so much time together that they realised they don't know or like each other all that much. This meant that in today's post-lockdown world those kids get freedom as long as they're out of the house, whether we're talking school during the week or simply 'out' on weekends. Two, the kids whose social and emotional needs were looked after by sport found their sport shut down, and they got sick of staying inside all too quickly.

What do those kids do? They start hanging out. Who used to be the kids who'd hang out? The kids who'd have a fake ID or whose older sibling would buy them some booze or smokes. And their parents drank like soaks all lockdowns, anyway. They were just happy not to have to worry about their kids anymore (or worry about having them around).

You've got literal hours of time to fill. Your parents are turning to booze to get themselves through it and they can't even bear to look at you. What would you do if one of the others - who understands - offered you a sip?

The kids learn to look after themselves. They don't feel supported by the adults in their lives. Adults who cannot know their experiences anyway, or how the * is a parent who grew up in 1980 going to relate to a child who's entire life has been captured online? They feel abandoned, and so they lash out; they can't earn enough money to purchase a car, so they steal a bag of chips. Woolies'll let 'em out; why wouldn't they, kid's only 14. What are they going to do, call the police when insurance'll handle it?

Then, sport's back, but sport's hard. You've got to stay fit to play sport, and those friends you made during lockdown don't play, and you can't drink or act up if you start playing footy again. Some kids try and do both; some don't. It's going to take a generation for participation to return to the way it was pre-Covid, and it's going to take longer for engagement levels to improve.

Does that comprehensively answer your question?

 

[ShanDog]

Given the return kids have gotten from trust and respect, I don't blame a lot of them for disengaging.

Just one look at the enquiries into institutional child abuse and you can see it plain as day.

Not really sure the difficulties faced by previous generations is forefront in adolescents' decision making.

 

[ShanDog]

A good article on classroom discipline and different approaches by different schools is here, (although it may not be freely available to all).

Have you looked into the Mikaela school in London? Could learn a bit from them, I think.

 

[Seeds]

When we replaced corporal punishment, we did so on the pretext that parents would actively parent their children. Neoliberal market forces meant that over time, parents could spend less and less time with their children; this necessitates that those children receive less parenting, both in terms of active parenting ('Johnny, put that down!') and in terms of relationships.

Most children don't spend nearly enough time with their parents these days, to the child's detriment. Their role models become either other adults in their life or their friends.

Covid - in my opinion - did two things round where I used to be. One, it made all the children who used to be able to avoid their parents - and parents that used to be able to avoid their children - spend so much time together that they realised they don't know or like each other all that much. This meant that in today's post-lockdown world those kids get freedom as long as they're out of the house, whether we're talking school during the week or simply 'out' on weekends. Two, the kids whose social and emotional needs were looked after by sport found their sport shut down, and they got sick of staying inside all too quickly.

What do those kids do? They start hanging out. Who used to be the kids who'd hang out? The kids who'd have a fake ID or whose older sibling would buy them some booze or smokes. And their parents drank like soaks all lockdowns, anyway. They were just happy not to have to worry about their kids anymore (or worry about having them around).

You've got literal hours of time to fill. Your parents are turning to booze to get themselves through it and they can't even bear to look at you. What would you do if one of the others - who understands - offered you a sip?

The kids learn to look after themselves. They don't feel supported by the adults in their lives. Adults who cannot know their experiences anyway, or how the * is a parent who grew up in 1980 going to relate to a child who's entire life has been captured online? They feel abandoned, and so they lash out; they can't earn enough money to purchase a car, so they steal a bag of chips. Woolies'll let 'em out; why wouldn't they, kid's only 14. What are they going to do, call the police when insurance'll handle it?

Then, sport's back, but sport's hard. You've got to stay fit to play sport, and those friends you made during lockdown don't play, and you can't drink or act up if you start playing footy again. Some kids try and do both; some don't. It's going to take a generation for participation to return to the way it was pre-Covid, and it's going to take longer for engagement levels to improve.

Does that comprehensively answer your question?

gees this appears to be quite a conservative post.

women moving to the workforce was not a neoliberal force but one driven by feminism. My wife is a doctor because she wants to be, is bloody good at it and sexist forces no longer gets in her way like they did for women in past generations. It isnt neoliberal forces that has made this happen. She doesnt secretly aspire to stay home and do housework. And this would be the same answer for nearly all of my female colleagues and friends.

And whats wrong with educated childcare adults spending some time with children anyway? I would argue this is a good thing that helps children develop, be safer and get new perspectives. Its a very old fashioned view to argue that only parents should be carers for children. My kids have been looked after by childcare workers since they were 6 months old and are extremely social, have lots of friends and doing great at school. I have no doubt the pre primary childcare has played a big role in this.

And even with women moving to the workforce Im not sure you can say that children see their parents less. especially quality parent-child interactions. Working hours have fallen overtime. Time required to do household chores has fallen dramatically over time. outside work hours kids spend far more time now with their parents then they did in the past. My kids dont go disappear all day on weekends to hang out with other kids like me and my siblings and everyone I knew used to. The only time i used to be home when i was a kid was when i was playing computer games or grounded. hardly had any interaction time with my parents on weekends. They were far too busy doing chores or interacting with their own friends. Post Covid work from home has also boosted family interactions. back in the past most kids travelled from home to school on their own. Now most parents have the time to drop their kids off at school before work. your idea of what most kids do today does not match reality. In my state its even against the law for kids under 12 to leave the house without adult supervisors. Yes there are some kids that still spend most of their non school time days out on the streets hanging with other kids. But a couple of decades ago most kids used to do this.

 

[Chief]

Not really sure the difficulties faced by previous generations is forefront in adolescents' decision making.

I am sure many have seen or heard of similar. I am sure none are sitting there mulling over inquiry testimony.

 

[CM86]

Have you looked into the Mikaela school in London? Could learn a bit from them, I think.

It's in the article. I can paste that part here as it's paywalled.

The most famous example of a rules-based approach is London’s Michaela Community School, which has been called Britain’s strictest school. It’s a “free school”, meaning that it is funded by the government but sets its own rules. Demerits are given for failing to concentrate, sloppy written work or running between classes. Pupils get detention for forgetting a pencil case, talking in the corridor or disrupting another student. If a student tuts at a teacher, they must spend a whole day in a session with a behavioural therapist. They can also earn merit points, which build towards badges that demonstrate they are the kind of person who is “exceptional”.​

​

Michaela’s students tend to be disadvantaged. Critics argue that this should prompt a warmer embrace, not colder rules. They also accuse the school of sucking the joy out of education and thwarting individuality. A few years ago, someone changed the school’s Google Maps tag to Michaela Community Prison. Its outspoken headmistress, Katharine Birbalsingh, who founded the school in 2014, has been compared to Roald Dahl’s cruel Trunchbull in Matilda.​

​

But Birbalsingh believes the true cruelty lies in lowering standards for disadvantaged students. “People say [discipline] is mean,” the 50-year-old told The Sydney Morning Herald last year. “I’d say what is mean is keeping a child illiterate and innumerate.” Her school, which epitomises the “neo-strict” movement, has become one of England’s highest-achieving; in the last A-level results, Britain’s equivalent to the HSC and VCE, nearly three-quarters of exams were graded A (80-89 per cent) or A* (90 per cent or above). “Teaching children right from wrong, instilling good habits, holding standards high and leading from the front is not humiliation or submission,” she has posted on social media. “It is doing your duty as an adult.”​

 

[ShanDog]

It's in the article. I can paste that part here as it's paywalled.

The most famous example of a rules-based approach is London’s Michaela Community School, which has been called Britain’s strictest school. It’s a “free school”, meaning that it is funded by the government but sets its own rules. Demerits are given for failing to concentrate, sloppy written work or running between classes. Pupils get detention for forgetting a pencil case, talking in the corridor or disrupting another student. If a student tuts at a teacher, they must spend a whole day in a session with a behavioural therapist. They can also earn merit points, which build towards badges that demonstrate they are the kind of person who is “exceptional”.​

​

Michaela’s students tend to be disadvantaged. Critics argue that this should prompt a warmer embrace, not colder rules. They also accuse the school of sucking the joy out of education and thwarting individuality. A few years ago, someone changed the school’s Google Maps tag to Michaela Community Prison. Its outspoken headmistress, Katharine Birbalsingh, who founded the school in 2014, has been compared to Roald Dahl’s cruel Trunchbull in Matilda.​

​

But Birbalsingh believes the true cruelty lies in lowering standards for disadvantaged students. “People say [discipline] is mean,” the 50-year-old told The Sydney Morning Herald last year. “I’d say what is mean is keeping a child illiterate and innumerate.” Her school, which epitomises the “neo-strict” movement, has become one of England’s highest-achieving; in the last A-level results, Britain’s equivalent to the HSC and VCE, nearly three-quarters of exams were graded A (80-89 per cent) or A* (90 per cent or above). “Teaching children right from wrong, instilling good habits, holding standards high and leading from the front is not humiliation or submission,” she has posted on social media. “It is doing your duty as an adult.”​

Ah cool, glad they mentioned it. I couldn't read the article.

 

[CM86]

When we replaced corporal punishment, we did so on the pretext that parents would actively parent their children. Neoliberal market forces meant that over time, parents could spend less and less time with their children; this necessitates that those children receive less parenting, both in terms of active parenting ('Johnny, put that down!') and in terms of relationships.

Most children don't spend nearly enough time with their parents these days, to the child's detriment. Their role models become either other adults in their life or their friends.

Covid - in my opinion - did two things round where I used to be. One, it made all the children who used to be able to avoid their parents - and parents that used to be able to avoid their children - spend so much time together that they realised they don't know or like each other all that much. This meant that in today's post-lockdown world those kids get freedom as long as they're out of the house, whether we're talking school during the week or simply 'out' on weekends. Two, the kids whose social and emotional needs were looked after by sport found their sport shut down, and they got sick of staying inside all too quickly.

What do those kids do? They start hanging out. Who used to be the kids who'd hang out? The kids who'd have a fake ID or whose older sibling would buy them some booze or smokes. And their parents drank like soaks all lockdowns, anyway. They were just happy not to have to worry about their kids anymore (or worry about having them around).

You've got literal hours of time to fill. Your parents are turning to booze to get themselves through it and they can't even bear to look at you. What would you do if one of the others - who understands - offered you a sip?

The kids learn to look after themselves. They don't feel supported by the adults in their lives. Adults who cannot know their experiences anyway, or how the * is a parent who grew up in 1980 going to relate to a child who's entire life has been captured online? They feel abandoned, and so they lash out; they can't earn enough money to purchase a car, so they steal a bag of chips. Woolies'll let 'em out; why wouldn't they, kid's only 14. What are they going to do, call the police when insurance'll handle it?

Then, sport's back, but sport's hard. You've got to stay fit to play sport, and those friends you made during lockdown don't play, and you can't drink or act up if you start playing footy again. Some kids try and do both; some don't. It's going to take a generation for participation to return to the way it was pre-Covid, and it's going to take longer for engagement levels to improve.

It was more in relation to the "both parents at work" linked to the increasing difficulty in behaviour management.

But I do really appreciate your response and enjoyed reading it.

Does that comprehensively answer your question?

No, but I wasn't asking for a comprehensive answer, just an expansion.
It wasn't an attack, if it seemed like that.

 

[CM86]

Its a very old fashioned view to argue that only parents should be carers for children.

That's not the argument at all.

gees this appears to be quite a conservative post.

women moving to the workforce was not a neoliberal force but one driven by feminism. My wife is a doctor because she wants to be, is bloody good at it and sexist forces no longer gets in her way like they did for women in past generations. It isnt neoliberal forces that has made this happen. She doesnt secretly aspire to stay home and do housework. And this would be the same answer for nearly all of my female colleagues and friends.

And whats wrong with educated childcare adults spending some time with children anyway? I would argue this is a good thing that helps children develop, be safer and get new perspectives. Its a very old fashioned view to argue that only parents should be carers for children. My kids have been looked after by childcare workers since they were 6 months old and are extremely social, have lots of friends and doing great at school. I have no doubt the pre primary childcare has played a big role in this.

And even with women moving to the workforce Im not sure you can say that children see their parents less. especially quality parent-child interactions. Working hours have fallen overtime. Time required to do household chores has fallen dramatically over time. outside work hours kids spend far more time now with their parents then they did in the past. My kids dont go disappear all day on weekends to hang out with other kids like me and my siblings and everyone I knew used to. The only time i used to be home when i was a kid was when i was playing computer games or grounded. hardly had any interaction time with my parents on weekends. They were far too busy doing chores or interacting with their own friends. Post Covid work from home has also boosted family interactions. back in the past most kids travelled from home to school on their own. Now most parents have the time to drop their kids off at school before work. your idea of what most kids do today does not match reality. In my state its even against the law for kids under 12 to leave the house without adult supervisors. Yes there are some kids that still spend most of their non school time days out on the streets hanging with other kids. But a couple of decades ago most kids used to do this.

I'm not sure if you read his post.
He wasn't raising women in the workforce as an issue in that post.

He is also talking about a huge range of youth and impacts on them.
You are refuting it by referring to your own children.
Yours is purely anecdotal, while his is a mixture of anecdotal and study-backed.

It's a very strange response to what was posted.

Unless I've completely misunderstood his post and your reply.

 

[CM86]

Ah cool, glad they mentioned it. I couldn't read the article.

I hadn't known about it until that article, I've meant to look more into it.

But yeah, a social, safe and engaging space with set and consistent rules that are clear and make sense. Backed by a social system enforcement is one of the best behaviour management aspects for home, classrooms, schools, youth detention etc etc.

 

[Gethelred]

It was more in relation to the "both parents at work" linked to the increasing difficulty in behaviour management.

But I do really appreciate your response and enjoyed reading it.


No, but I wasn't asking for a comprehensive answer, just an expansion.
It wasn't an attack, if it seemed like that.

Was more poking fun at myself for being unable to be succinct.

 

[ShanDog]

I hadn't known about it until that article, I've meant to look more into it.

But yeah, a social, safe and engaging space with set and consistent rules that are clear and make sense. Backed by a social system enforcement is one of the best behaviour management aspects for home, classrooms, schools, youth detention etc etc.

And they get outstanding results.

The problem is that they can do that with their school - it's one the kids (or at the very least their parents) are extremely keen to get them into, and if the student rebels against it all, then out the door they go. If you try to simply emulate the same system at Local Suburb High School here in Australia, there isn't the same buy-in or support from parents.

 

[Chief]

The most famous example of a rules-based approach is London’s Michaela Community School, which has been called Britain’s strictest school. It’s a “free school”, meaning that it is funded by the government but sets its own rules. Demerits are given for failing to concentrate, sloppy written work or running between classes. Pupils get detention for forgetting a pencil case, talking in the corridor or disrupting another student. If a student tuts at a teacher, they must spend a whole day in a session with a behavioural therapist. They can also earn merit points, which build towards badges that demonstrate they are the kind of person who is “exceptional”.

Sounds like child abuse.

 

[Chief]

they get outstanding results.

They get outstanding results in Korea and kids DIE trying to live up to the standards and rules.

Sounds totally abusive leaving the rest of society to deal with the stunted humans they churn out. The English private school system same.

We Must Ban Private Schools. Ash Sarkar Meets Richard Beard | Novara Media

Britain is unique in the way that public schools (that's private schools to anyone outside of Britain) have a stranglehold on the establishment. Alumni of these schools are massively overrepresented in the upper echelons of society - so is it any wonder that the media, the judicial system and...

novaramedia.com

 

[peetoo]

 

[ShanDog]

They get outstanding results in Korea and kids DIE trying to live up to the standards and rules.

Sounds totally abusive leaving the rest of society to deal with the stunted humans they churn out. The English private school system same.

We Must Ban Private Schools. Ash Sarkar Meets Richard Beard | Novara Media

Britain is unique in the way that public schools (that's private schools to anyone outside of Britain) have a stranglehold on the establishment. Alumni of these schools are massively overrepresented in the upper echelons of society - so is it any wonder that the media, the judicial system and...

novaramedia.com

Some would argue that setting students from disadvantaged backgrounds to fail with the current system is far more "abusive".

 

[Gethelred]

gees this appears to be quite a conservative post.

women moving to the workforce was not a neoliberal force but one driven by feminism.

... for those women who wanted to work. Other women were forced out of parenthood by the financial necessity of paying rent and putting food on the table; it was not a choice for them.

But then, wild misinterpretation is something you're fairly well known for.

My wife is a doctor because she wants to be, is bloody good at it and sexist forces no longer gets in her way like they did for women in past generations. It isnt neoliberal forces that has made this happen. She doesnt secretly aspire to stay home and do housework. And this would be the same answer for nearly all of my female colleagues and friends.

From a starting point of one income being enough to house, clothe and feed a family, the amount require to do all of that has absolutely ******* skyrocketed in line with neoliberal economic dominance. Housing alone sees a single income household requiring significantly in excess of median income to achieve.

As a woman, if you have to work to afford your life - as in, mere existential needs - then it isn't a feminist choice to work but a survival one.

The situation's gone from a second income in a family meaning living well to being essential for subsistence. Pointing this out is not a conservative argument.

And whats wrong with educated childcare adults spending some time with children anyway? I would argue this is a good thing that helps children develop, be safer and get new perspectives. Its a very old fashioned view to argue that only parents should be carers for children.

It's almost as though I didn't argue it was...

My kids have been looked after by childcare workers since they were 6 months old and are extremely social, have lots of friends and doing great at school. I have no doubt the pre primary childcare has played a big role in this.

Why do you assume I'm talking solely about mothers, Seeds?

And even with women moving to the workforce Im not sure you can say that children see their parents less.

Using workplace data - hours worked - you can unequivocally state that both fathers and mothers have less opportunity to interact with their children in 2023 than they did in 1980.

... especially quality parent-child interactions. Working hours have fallen overtime.

Okay. Prove it.

Time required to do household chores has fallen dramatically over time. outside work hours kids spend far more time now with their parents then they did in the past.

You mean, playing sports, dance, activites?

Things these children do with other children, with their parents watching from the side.

My kids dont go disappear all day on weekends to hang out with other kids like me and my siblings and everyone I knew used to. The only time i used to be home when i was a kid was when i was playing computer games or grounded. hardly had any interaction time with my parents on weekends. They were far too busy doing chores or interacting with their own friends. Post Covid work from home has also boosted family interactions. back in the past most kids travelled from home to school on their own. Now most parents have the time to drop their kids off at school before work. your idea of what most kids do today does not match reality. In my state its even against the law for kids under 12 to leave the house without adult supervisors. Yes there are some kids that still spend most of their non school time days out on the streets hanging with other kids. But a couple of decades ago most kids used to do this.

I'm glad you've had these experiences, Seeds. But - as stated above - you're wife's a doctor, and you're relatively well off; you are not operating at subsistence level with two incomes. Your experiences - while valid - are not exemplar of the entire status quo, for which the cost of existence has consistently gotten steeper in terms of time and money.

 

[Gough]

It's in the article. I can paste that part here as it's paywalled.

The most famous example of a rules-based approach is London’s Michaela Community School, which has been called Britain’s strictest school. It’s a “free school”, meaning that it is funded by the government but sets its own rules. Demerits are given for failing to concentrate, sloppy written work or running between classes. Pupils get detention for forgetting a pencil case, talking in the corridor or disrupting another student. If a student tuts at a teacher, they must spend a whole day in a session with a behavioural therapist. They can also earn merit points, which build towards badges that demonstrate they are the kind of person who is “exceptional”.​

​

Michaela’s students tend to be disadvantaged. Critics argue that this should prompt a warmer embrace, not colder rules. They also accuse the school of sucking the joy out of education and thwarting individuality. A few years ago, someone changed the school’s Google Maps tag to Michaela Community Prison. Its outspoken headmistress, Katharine Birbalsingh, who founded the school in 2014, has been compared to Roald Dahl’s cruel Trunchbull in Matilda.​

​

But Birbalsingh believes the true cruelty lies in lowering standards for disadvantaged students. “People say [discipline] is mean,” the 50-year-old told The Sydney Morning Herald last year. “I’d say what is mean is keeping a child illiterate and innumerate.” Her school, which epitomises the “neo-strict” movement, has become one of England’s highest-achieving; in the last A-level results, Britain’s equivalent to the HSC and VCE, nearly three-quarters of exams were graded A (80-89 per cent) or A* (90 per cent or above). “Teaching children right from wrong, instilling good habits, holding standards high and leading from the front is not humiliation or submission,” she has posted on social media. “It is doing your duty as an adult.”​

Love to see how this school would survive off the government tit.

 

[CM86]

Sounds like child abuse.

Doesn't a lot of it depend how it's done, and how it's understood?

 

[Gough]

When Michael Gove and Rushi Sunak are sending their kids to this awesome school maybe we could be left without the lingering suspicion that it's not some sort of nasty Tory social experiment allegedly done in the name of helping the less fortunate.

 

[CM86]

I'll have to read more about it.

I was under the impression that it was creating a safe learning environment that students were engaging with and enjoying (as much as you can at school).

If it's just an overly funded pseudo-private school that kicks out any student who can't be threatened and scared into insane restrictions, then I'm against it.
If it's based on fear from staff and parents. That's abusive.

 

[Chief]

My friend went to one of these "total school" joints.

Their lunch times were spent talking about how much they ******* hated the school.