The Facts Behind Carltons Week From Hell Part Two

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Look its all going to fall into place soon.

But changed have to be / will be made.. and those of us that want change and are screaming for it shouldnt have to be labeled as "nagative"

And those that prefer to recognise positives where they see them, shouldn't be told they have their head in the sand. Some of us feel that there is long term damage being caused by the excessive negativity and the public airing of dirty linen. Some people's motivation seems to be that they want the personal praise that comes with revealing the tiniest rumour rather than a consideration for how it might affect the club and potential members.

We might be critics and criticism when there needs to be criticism is positive.. because it leads to questioning and change.

Absolutely people need to question lest we get back to the cloak and dagger dealings of the Elliott administration. Making mountains out of fringe players dissatisfaction at a bottom placed side to pad out an argument is not necessarily part of the necessary questioning however.

And currently there is not alot of positives around the club that have manifested themselves because of a) Smorgon b) Pagan c) Malouf...

And Collo before them and Elliott before that and Kinnear as well and Lofts and hell, anybody associated with the club while they have sunk down the ladder. That's the real message isn't it?

Unless someone can point out positives that can be DIRECTLY attributed to those three men.

Yup, showed strength during trade week. Made a decision to retain the players, stuck to their guns, played their leverage hand and won. That is a positive regardless of why the players wanted out, regardless of whether they players were forced to stay, regardless of negotiation bungles. They made a decison, didn't waiver for a change and averted a potential crisis, sending a message in the process. Net result, both players got the talk that they both needed, were made to feel part of the fold again, did some positive PR work and mended fences.

What has Malouf's role been in the redevelopment of MC Labour Park? Some on TC have said that his council connections have come in very handy.

I realise that every positive can be twisted into a negative and vice versa but then that just comes down to what you are looking for, where your mind is at when considering these things.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I think youre getting mixed up between deepthoats and people with VERY long necks that go VERY deep into the sand...


and like i said... it will happen pretty soon.. and then when that happens are we negative or were you just a sheep with a long neck and a head that lived deep in the bowels of nothingness???

I think time will answer that for us .. so lets revist it then...

I think you are confusing things here. I don't doubt for a moment that people are rallying behind the scenes, that challenges are afoot. Does the fact that a group overthrows the encumbents prove all of the negatives you are stating? Not in any way, shape or form. Let's say they come in and sack Pagan? ADL will be happy by the sounds of it, Bryan if he survives the cut, maybe Thornton and Russell, what about the rest? Is Fevola the only player that likes Pagan and wants him to stay? Will he be alienated? Will others?

Make a definitive statement here. Not whispers and wait and sees.

Tell us absolutely so there can be no mistake in your knowledge here.

1) Will the board be overthrown soon?
2) Will Pagan be sacked soon?
3) Will the players all be happy about it and will we be seeing any comment on their happiness now that they don't have to worry about Denis anymore? You have spoken to them all so this should be easy for you to answer.
4) Will our members come right back on board?
5) Will we immediately spring back into the black without cash injections from benefactors?

The fact that change is in the wind proves nothing as to the job the encumbents are now doing. Hell we all know about the Brown bankroll.

And yes, if it happens I will still consider you to be negative and nothing more than an agent of those looking to come in, all the while dragging us further down the gurglar due to the persistent negativity.

If you are being negative, it means that you are always finding rebuttals to positives regardless of the situation. This you are doing. Aren't you saying that there have been ZERO positives associated with Pagan, Smorgon or Malouf? If someone quotes a player that says something nice about Pagan, it is considered spin but yet a lesser player can allegedly say something bad about Pagan and it is considered gospel without ever making it into mainstream media. That is hypocritical to the extreme. Thornton wants to leave, let's focus on the reasons why. Thornton now wants to stay and have a cuddle with Pagan, that has to be massive spin. Now there is nothing to suggest what side of the argument is correct but you will take the side that errs on the negative.

Any future changes does nothing to eliminate that fact I'm afraid. You clearly have an agenda and clearly put yourself on a pedestal above other Carlton supporters. It's supporters like this that don't demonstrate an understanding or a sense of comraderie with their fellow supporters that can drive supporters away from a club. I often wish I had never viewed internet forums, instead wishing I was blissfully unaware of the arrogance of my fellow supporters. It really does take a lot of the enjoyment away from the whole thing.

No doubt you think that by publicising your views, it is creating some short term angst for the sake of long term gain. What I wonder however, is how much of this short term angst we can take before the situation becomes irretrievable. Discretion is the better part of valour.

 

[darren waitee]

Just passing on info from reliable sources who know what goes on. If you think Campo & French leaving, Thornton & Russell asking to leave with someone else about to join them & players from other clubs knocking back good offers mean all is well at the club, that's your problem. Sounds like the PR machine are doing a good job deceiving all the supporters that all is well at the club when it isn't.

just the point i was making when i first posted this thread

 

[celtic_pride]

Look it's this chinese whipsers and gossip and backstabbign that not only ruins football clubs but marriages and lifelong friendships etc.
This same source that told me about Goddard told me at least 8 months ago that Cory Mcrgath was going to be delisted and that the board and sponsors were looking for ways to get rid of Pagan.
The thing is though in the best interests of the club i probably shouldn't say to much, but suffice to say I believe someone sabotaged the best interests of the football club to keep Malouf at Carlton by convincing Goddard to stay at St.Kilda rather then Join Carlton in the PSD (which Goddard would have done) if had managed to 'appoint' a certain rather controversial figure in football circles as the CEO and football operations manager of the club.
Also it wasn't Ian Collins who gave Pagan the big contract extension after winning the wizard cup (he was in hospital recovering after that heart attack)
A

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

Chinese whispers, gossip, backstabbing.... seems that is what i continually read on these posts.

If you're going to say "According to a source" name your source, otherwise you're just contributing to the game of whispers.

 

[mediumsizered]

Just to put something into perspective, the following players have been named as not liking Pagan:
Campo: Had reached the twilight of his career, was relegated to a back flank & was offered a much reduced contract which most likely was based on what he had left to offer the club.

French: Struggled with form this season & was relegated to the VFL for a short stint as a result. He didn't actually set the world on fire while in the VFL but was elevated back to the seniors anyway.

Lappin: Has struggled for form over the last 2 seasons, was lucky not to be dropped in 2005 but was finally dropped during 2006. Voiced his displeasure on SEN after one of the VFL games, was ultimately returned to the senior side. Is now aware of his standing at the club.

Thornton: Was offered a 3 year $1 million dollar deal by the Hawks, which was more than Carlton offered him. You can't knock a bloke for being interested in an offer like that. The fact that Carlton ultimately matched the offer means he gets to stay playing with his mates for the same money as he would have got at Hawthorn and Carlton keep a required player. Win/Win.

Russell: 1st round draft pick who has played 11 senior games, with a career high 14 disposals. Has not cemented a regular senior spot because he has yet to have any real impact on a game. Players like Murphy, Blackwell, Bentick, even Jackson & Bower have shown a bit more than this kid so far. Methinks JR is under the impression he should have played more senior football than he has. He needs to put some runs on the board in the VFL to warrant games in the seniors, just as Kade Simpson did in 2004 & part of 2005.

Prenda: Great clubman, huge heart, but was never quite good enough for AFL football. Did not have the footy nous to play KP & was too small to be competitive in the ruck. Showed a bit in an old-fashioned ruck-rover type role, but therein lies the problem, we don't have ruck-rovers in the modern game. Delisting was expected & was called for by most posters on here.

Chambers: Showed great promise in the 2005 Wizard Cup, then sustained a calf injury. Was given a number of opportunities in 2005 but did not seem prepared to 'get his hands dirty'. Is a definite outside player with few strings to his bow. Saw senior action only twice in 2006 & despite some promising showings late in the 2006 VFL season was always going to be a victim of our youth policy. Once again, most posters had called for his delisting.

Bryan: What an enigma this guy is. We all remember his debut against the Swans last year at TD, gave us all something to look forward to in the future. From all reports, though, his efforts on the training track have not always been what is required of someone who wants to play senior AFL football. My wife spoke to him at the Gabba this year and reckons he is a nice guy. That may well be, but he needs to do the hard work required to become a regular at senior level. Unfortunately his size is always going to count against him. Will probably struggle to get a senior game next year with the arrival of Ackland.

ADL: If this guy is unhappy with Pagan then he is an extremely ungrateful character. Drafted at pick 72 in the 2003 draft after being overlooked in 3-4? previous drafts. Realistically found his way onto our list due to our lack of drafting options & the gradual unravelling of our playing list. Has played 46 games in his 3 seasons at Carlton (to the horror of many Carlton supporters) but has been in and out of the side the whole time at Carlton. Is unlikely to ever attract interest from other AFL clubs & therefore owes a great deal to the Carlton Football Club.

I can see why these players would be unhappy with Pagan. It is called ego. To make it to AFL level you have to have a pretty high opinion (self confidence if you like) of yourself. Once you get there, if you are struggling to make the grade or cement a regular spot the easier option is to blame the coach, the club, the training facilities, the lack of success etc. Each one of these players has either battled with form or struggled to cement a spot in the senior side & some have been overtaken by younger players. Of course they are frustrated & would think that a change of coach or a change of environment would overcome this. I don't think that we should be changing our coach to appease these players. It would be a dangerous precedent to set.

 

[OZBomb]

The reason those claiming something big is going to happen have no credibility, with some, is that you refuse to tell us specifically what's going to happen.

You won't put the credibility of your so-called 'sources' on the line by saying specifically what they 'think' is going to happen.

Nut up... or pipe up

It's pretty easy to say something 'big' is going to happen.

 

[Johnny_3]

stupid question but who is adl, please pm me im really lost.

And by the way i know recent events have been a step forward but think about it why would good players knock down better offers to be with a young up and coming side. Coach, board.. ne other suggestions?

 

[Bluebear]

Over the past week I have spoken to many people inside and outside of the club including three board members

So were they 3 members with opposing views, giving you an "unbiased" opinion, or were you the lacky being fed what they knew you would then spill as a "story" to the masses?
How does it feel to be used?

IMO all of the rumour and innuendo could be true, could be crap......thats why its called rumour.
Fact is none of it matters untiol somthing actually happens.
Anything between now and then is people big noting themselves and fulfilling some need for being thought of as important.

 

[BlueWorld]

What tells me that there are some positives still at the club, is the fact that the media have stopped bashing us for the moment, that Smorgon has made a concerted effort to show a united front instead of saying stupid things in public. That the club showed strength by sticking to their guns against almost all popular opinion during trade week and came out the other side unharmed. Instead of being happy the club showed some strength, the ones that want them all out prefer to concentrate on the reasons for the players wanting to leave in the first place. Instead of wondering why the players have signed on for 2-3 years if their problems are so bad, they prefer to concentrate on them being forced to stay.

Our trade week was a shambles. We should have had all our players signed up well beforehand so we could concentrate on improving our list, not retaining players that wanted to leave.

 

[BlueWorld]

Look it's this chinese whipsers and gossip and backstabbign that not only ruins football clubs but marriages and lifelong friendships etc.
This same source that told me about Goddard told me at least 8 months ago that Cory Mcrgath was going to be delisted and that the board and sponsors were looking for ways to get rid of Pagan.
A

If we decided to delist Mcgrath that long ago, why was he played for most of the year while younger players who did have a future were kept in the VFL?

 

[BlueWorld]

Thornton: Was offered a 3 year $1 million dollar deal by the Hawks, which was more than Carlton offered him. You can't knock a bloke for being interested in an offer like that. The fact that Carlton ultimately matched the offer means he gets to stay playing with his mates for the same money as he would have got at Hawthorn and Carlton keep a required player. Win/Win.

Carlton had already matched the offer prior to trade week. He still asked to be traded, stating he wanted a 'fresh start' and it was not about the money. He only agreed to stay after he realised we would redraft him and he had no hope of getting to Hawthorn.

 

[audas]

Carlton had already matched the offer prior to trade week. He still asked to be traded, stating he wanted a 'fresh start' and it was not about the money. He only agreed to stay after he realised we would redraft him and he had no hope of getting to Hawthorn.

Well not according to Thornton. I gather from what he said in the media after being resigned that you just making sutff up and presenting it as fact. Its up there on the interweb for all to see, you make-r-upe-r-er!

 

[audas]

Actually the feeling most commonly expressed by players in regard to Pagan is one of admiration, respect and total loyalty. Have a look, try Google. Or not, its a question of honesty.

 

[BlueWorld]

Well not according to Thornton. I gather from what he said in the media after being resigned that you just making sutff up and presenting it as fact. Its up there on the interweb for all to see, you make-r-upe-r-er!

No I don't make things up.

http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/bm/sport/459114.html

However, Thornton’s manager Anthony McConville said the tall defender was determined to make a fresh start with the Hawks.

“Carlton offered a substantial contract, no different to what Hawthorn offered, but Bret wants to make a fresh start,” McConville told the AFL website.

“We rejected the offers from Carlton and Carlton told us we had 48 hours to make a decision so we told them that Bret wished to be traded to Hawthorn.”

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,20537980%5E19767,00.html

Thornton, who lives in Mt Waverley, close to the Hawks' training facility, wants out for financial and personal reasons.

While the Blues have offered him a three-year deal, Thornton is keen on a fresh start.

There were claims last night his relationship with Blues coach Denis Pagan has become strained and was a factor in his decision to seek a new home.

"Bret has agonised over this and wants a fresh start," McConville said. "It was a tough decision and one that he has thought long and hard about.

"He has loved his time at Carlton but thinks the time has come for a change."

The money was the same- as confirmed by his manager. Yet he still asked to be traded, as I stated. Denis Pagan was a factor. I didn't make that up.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

No I don't make things up.

http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/bm/sport/459114.html



http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,20537980%255E19767,00.html



The money was the same- as confirmed by his manager. Yet he still asked to be traded, as I stated. Denis Pagan was a factor. I didn't make that up.

"There were claims" - is just media speculation. It is a nice way of saying something without having to back it up with any sources. It might as well say 'rumour has it'. This sort of crap is typical of poor journalism - as seen on TT; ACA etc.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The money was the same- as confirmed by his manager. Yet he still asked to be traded, as I stated. Denis Pagan was a factor. I didn't make that up.

No the media made that up because Thornton was oversees. There was no direct quote from Thornton or McConville in regards to Pagan and if they had have said anything, the media would have used it. Surely we all realise now that these 'claims' the media uses are little more than them perusing the pages of BigFooty or Talking Carlton or wherever.

What wasn't made up however were the direct quotes from Thornton where he stated he didn't have a problem with Pagan and wanted to set the record straight. So what we are now doing is considering anything positive from players to be PR spin while any 'claims' that do not come with a direct quote from the player are considered to be valid. Get that one past a court of law.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Our trade week was a shambles. We should have had all our players signed up well beforehand so we could concentrate on improving our list, not retaining players that wanted to leave.

Not having them signed up was bad, negotiating via media was bad, them wanting to leave was bad.

Us being resolute was good, us using our PSD leverage finally was good, us re-signing two required players after not getting a favourable trade offer, for 2 and 3 years respectively was good.

I still don't know why Thornton and Russell didn't re-sign for 1 season only, so they can try and get out again next year. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Anyway, there are negatives and positives in most situations. Some look for only positives, some look at both, some look for only negatives.

 

[BlueWorld]

No the media made that up because Thornton was oversees. There was no direct quote from Thornton or McConville in regards to Pagan and if they had have said anything, the media would have used it. Surely we all realise now that these 'claims' the media uses are little more than them perusing the pages of BigFooty or Talking Carlton or wherever.

What wasn't made up however were the direct quotes from Thornton where he stated he didn't have a problem with Pagan and wanted to set the record straight. So what we are now doing is considering anything positive from players to be PR spin while any 'claims' that do not come with a direct quote from the player are considered to be valid. Get that one past a court of law.

You believe what you want to believe. I've said enough.

 

[AlecDuncan]

You believe what you want to believe. I've said enough.

Finally, something we can agree on.

 

[DIG]

No I don't make things up.

http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/bm/sport/459114.html



http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,20537980%5E19767,00.html



The money was the same- as confirmed by his manager. Yet he still asked to be traded, as I stated. Denis Pagan was a factor. I didn't make that up.

What a load of crap. Mixture of media speculation and dribble his manager was spewing out for weeks to try to negotiate the best deal for Thornton with whichever club, whatever the cost.

find me just ONE direct quote from Thornton himself which says this. All the quotes I've heard from his mouth are he's relieved it's all over and happy to spend his next 3 years at the contract (if it's so bad why re-sign for 3 years, why not 1, same goes for Russell).

 

[Blue Thunder]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

I couldnt care a less who runs this club as long as they run it properly. However I am aware that in about 2 weeks time there will be a motion put to the board for significant personnel change. If this is not accepted an EGM will be scheduled.

The intentions of the rival group is to not remove Pagan for at least 12 months.

As it sits Fraser Brown is not part of this rival group however there are some influential people with a high profile Carlton person prepared to be a club benefactor which will significantly assist the club financially.

Personally I think the board has done a reasonably good job the past couple of weeks however it does concern me that there is a heap of talk about the infighting going on, the different factions and the players not being happy with the coach.

However this scenario ends (whether the current board remains or there is a change) up I just hope that it is all done quickly so that we can at least get solid stability within the club and move forward.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

I couldnt care a less who runs this club as long as they run it properly. However I am aware that in about 2 weeks time there will be a motion put to the board for significant personnel change. If this is not accepted an EGM will be scheduled.

The intentions of the rival group is to not remove Pagan for at least 12 months.

As it sits Fraser Brown is not part of this rival group however there are some influential people with a high profile Carlton person prepared to be a club benefactor which will significantly assist the club financially.

Personally I think the board has done a reasonably good job the past couple of weeks however it does concern me that there is a heap of talk about the infighting going on, the different factions and the players not being happy with the coach.

However this scenario ends (whether the current board remains or there is a change) up I just hope that it is all done quickly so that we can at least get solid stability within the club and move forward.

Good post. I too am not adverse to change as long as it is for the better and as long as we aren't hurting ourselves publicly with trumped up accusations just to ensure the change occurs.

If some more Carlton money men came on board, I would be rapt. I have no particular loyalty to Smogon or Pagan, just a sense of justice.

 

[OZBomb]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

I couldnt care a less who runs this club as long as they run it properly. However I am aware that in about 2 weeks time there will be a motion put to the board for significant personnel change. If this is not accepted an EGM will be scheduled.

The intentions of the rival group is to not remove Pagan for at least 12 months.

As it sits Fraser Brown is not part of this rival group however there are some influential people with a high profile Carlton person prepared to be a club benefactor which will significantly assist the club financially.

Personally I think the board has done a reasonably good job the past couple of weeks however it does concern me that there is a heap of talk about the infighting going on, the different factions and the players not being happy with the coach.

However this scenario ends (whether the current board remains or there is a change) up I just hope that it is all done quickly so that we can at least get solid stability within the club and move forward.

I agree with ODN, good post.

Atleast this is telling us something... instead of pretending we're all morons for being positive in the current climate.

 

[Blue Thunder]

Thanks ODN and OZBOMB. I try to be objective with my views and like you guy's I dont mind who is in power providing they make good decisions, have a solid plan in place and have the ability and the network to grow our brand, then they will have my full support!

Whatever happens over the next few months I am confident that come the end of the year we will all be able to put the last couple of years behind us and be positive about the next 10 years!