The league's best midfield?

[hk89]

Thomas looked like he belonged the instant he stepped over an AFL line. Statiscally wise, he had Cyril covered his first few years. As for Ellis, he was a mile ahead of him in 09'.

Thomas was a laughing stock outside Collingwood until 2010. As for miles ahead in 2009, Thomas averaged less possessions and less tackles than Ellis per game. Ellis only managed 11 games though due to injury, and Thomas has played 41 more games than Ellis, nearly two seasons worth. Two seasons is a lot of footy, and Ellis may well never catch up to Thomas, but Thomas has had a lot more match experience than Ellis (due to injury and a year off footy, NOT because he languished in VFL, although some hawks fans thinks he should have (not me ) ). I'd concede Thomas' 2010 was miles ahead of Ellis'.

By which stats did Thomas have Rioli covered in his first few years? Certainly not goals or tackles. Their dream team scores in their first 3 years have Rioli ahead each year, dream team scores are a bit simplistic , but they do summarise the basic stats.

 

[winty]

Thank god we won the Premiership last year, a lot of Saints supporters are being way too arrogant for my liking; imagine if they won the flag!

They were arrogant in 2009 too. Heaven help us if they actually win something.

Back on topic, using BF logic over the last few years, it's obvious that Geelong's midfield are head and shoulders above everyone else. After all, it's been argued on here that Scarlett and the rest of the defenders only look good because of the midfield, Mooney, SJ and Pods are only good because of the supply they get from the midfield, and Gaz was only good because of the players around him, which incidentally are all still at the club.

 

[Rev08]

Thomas looked like he belonged the instant he stepped over an AFL line. Statiscally wise, he had Cyril covered his first few years. As for Ellis, he was a mile ahead of him in 09'.

Sorry, while I rate Thomas now, no way did he look like an AFL footballer from day one. Most neutral supporters saw him as being a flashy HFF and not much more.

What he turned himself into in 2010 was completely different to that.

And no, he didn't have Cyril covered, ever. Nor will he, ever.

 

[Rev08]

They were arrogant in 2009 too. Heaven help us if they actually win something.

Back on topic, using BF logic over the last few years, it's obvious that Geelong's midfield are head and shoulders above everyone else. After all, it's been argued on here that Scarlett and the rest of the defenders only look good because of the midfield, Mooney, SJ and Pods are only good because of the supply they get from the midfield, and Gaz was only good because of the players around him, which incidentally are all still at the club.

Spot on.

Jarryd Roughead is a spud that wouldn't get a game in most other forward lines, until we're talking about Hawthorn's midfield when all of a sudden he makes them look good.

I can't keep up!

 

[Guardian Hawk]

after the first 4 or 5 it drops away badly, AND you have a very poor ruck division.....so yes, i'd say whatever ground the Hawthorn midfield makes on it's first rotation is in fact lost by it's poor ruck and lack of depth.

You think it's above average???

Was going to say I agree, then I thought about it - what sides don't drop away?

If Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell and Burgoyne are the first 4, then

Lewis, Rioli, Bateman, Young and Bruce are probably the next 5.

In contrast (as Collingwood's rotations are above, the next best side) St.Kilda's (after Hayes, Goddard, Montagna and Dal Santo) are:

Jones, Ray, Peake, McQualter and Geary? (based on games last year - maybe Armitage should be in there.)

I wouldn't say Hawthorn's next 5 falls away badly in comparison to St KIlda's next 5. Agree/disagree? What about other clubs?

 

[TownleyTime]

Thomas was a laughing stock outside Collingwood until 2010.

That is a poor troll.

As for miles ahead in 2009, Thomas averaged less possessions and less tackles than Ellis per game.

In 09', Thomas averaged 17 disposals, ditto for Ellis. Poor troll, part 2.

It's a lot easier cherry picking of a HBF without an opponent as opposed to being a HFFer, with limited opportunities.

but Thomas has had a lot more match experience than Ellis

No one is debating that. Ellis has shown his stick frame is unable to cope with the long term rigours of AFL football. That is why the jury is well & truly out on him.

By which stats did Thomas have Rioli covered in his first few years? Certainly not goals or tackles.

Thomas avg. 15 disposals p/g in his first year. Rioli 13.
Thomas avg. 16 disposals p/g in his 2nd year. Rioli 15.
Thomas avg. 17 disposals p/g in his 3rd year. Rioli 17.

Now by your own troll

Thomas was a laughing stock outside Collingwood until 2010

Thomas was a laughing stock outside Collingwood but had Rioli covered in his first 3 years yet Rioli is considered as being a valuable member of Hawthorn's midfield despite having inferior stats to Thomas, who in your words was a laughing stock.

Interesting.

 

[jabbers]

They were arrogant in 2009 too. Heaven help us if they actually win something.

Back on topic, using BF logic over the last few years, it's obvious that Geelong's midfield were head and shoulders above everyone else. After all, it's been argued on here that Scarlett and the rest of the defenders only look good because of the midfield, Mooney, SJ and Pods are only good because of the supply they get from the midfield, and Gaz was only good because of the players around him, which incidentally are all still at the club.

(edited for accuracy) no one should doubt Geelong were the best midfield till about halfway through last year.

 

[hk89]

In 09', Thomas averaged 17 disposals, ditto for Ellis. Poor troll, part 2.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...09&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2009&fid2=P&fopt2=2009

Thomas 17.2 Eliis 17.4 i.e. Ellis had more. Given Ellis's tackle count was also higher, I'd guess he did more of the hard stuff to get those possessions too, but I can't find contested possession stats going back further than last year, so I could be wrong.

Ellis has shown his stick frame is unable to cope with the long term rigours of AFL football.

And yet his frame managed to stay together to the point he played every game last year. Troll. Hopefully with what appears to have been a decent pre-season this year he'll have an improved 2011, unlikely to catch Thomas, but he has until 2012 to show Thomas' 2010 form based on games played.

Thomas avg. 15 disposals p/g in his first year. Rioli 13.
Thomas avg. 16 disposals p/g in his 2nd year. Rioli 15.
Thomas avg. 17 disposals p/g in his 3rd year. Rioli 17.

You have an unusual rounding method:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...12&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2006&fid2=P&fopt2=2008

First year: Thomas 14.1 Rioli 13.8 Rioli averages more goals and tackles
2nd Year: Thomas 15.8 Rioli 15.6 Again Rioli averages more goals and tackles
3rd Year: Thomas 15.7 Rioli 17.3 Rioli also averages more goals and tackles

Perhaps you are not a troll, and just use a different stats source, care to link?

Thomas was a laughing stock outside Collingwood but had Rioli covered in his first 3 years yet Rioli is considered as being a valuable member of Hawthorn's midfield despite having inferior stats to Thomas, who in your words was a laughing stock.

Clearly your stats are wrong, and in any case only look at total possessions and not goals and tackles. I suspect Thomas may have seen more midfield rotation than Cyril over that time, but Cyril also played closer to goal which makes the comparisons a bit tricky, and is why I mentioned Dream team points which tries to balance out those factors (although not very well at times), and Cyril beat Thomas in every year over his career so far (comparing to Thomas' 1st, 2nd , 3rd years).

 

[TownleyTime]

I suspect Thomas may have seen more midfield rotation than Cyril over that time, but Cyril also played closer to goal which makes the comparisons a bit tricky

That is pure guess work on your part & without any factual basis.

 

[jabbers]

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...09&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2009&fid2=P&fopt2=2009

Thomas 17.2 Eliis 17.4 i.e. Ellis had more. Given Ellis's tackle count was also higher, I'd guess he did more of the hard stuff to get those possessions too, but I can't find contested possession stats going back further than last year, so I could be wrong.




And yet his frame managed to stay together to the point he played every game last year. Troll. Hopefully with what appears to have been a decent pre-season this year he'll have an improved 2011, unlikely to catch Thomas, but he has until 2012 to show Thomas' 2010 form based on games played.



You have an unusual rounding method:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...12&type=A&fid1=P&fopt1=2006&fid2=P&fopt2=2008

First year: Thomas 14.1 Rioli 13.8 Rioli averages more goals and tackles
2nd Year: Thomas 15.8 Rioli 15.6 Again Rioli averages more goals and tackles
3rd Year: Thomas 15.7 Rioli 17.3 Rioli also averages more goals and tackles

Perhaps you are not a troll, and just use a different stats source, care to link?





Clearly your stats are wrong, and in any case only look at total possessions and not goals and tackles. I suspect Thomas may have seen more midfield rotation than Cyril over that time, but Cyril also played closer to goal which makes the comparisons a bit tricky, and is why I mentioned Dream team points which tries to balance out those factors (although not very well at times), and Cyril beat Thomas in every year over his career so far (comparing to Thomas' 1st, 2nd , 3rd years).

The fact is as it stands last season Thomas was superior. He raised the physicality of his game and improved his endurance. Rioli is yet to prove he can be an elite midfielder. Thomas proved last year he can be. Time will tell.

 

[hk89]

That is pure guess work on your part & without any factual basis.

A bit like your claims of Thomas being miles ahead of Ellis in 2009 despite the stats not supporting it, and Thomas having Cyril covered in his first 3 years, oh and Sewell not being able to get a game at most AFL clubs. One troll after another really.

 

[the distributer]

A bit like your claims of Thomas being miles ahead of Ellis in 2009 despite the stats not supporting it, and Thomas having Cyril covered in his first 3 years, oh and Sewell not being able to get a game at most AFL clubs. One troll after another really.

well he certainly has them covered now doesnt he lol.

 

[hk89]

The fact is as it stands last season Thomas was superior. He raised the physicality of his game and improved his endurance. Rioli is yet to prove he can be an elite midfielder. Thomas proved last year he can be. Time will tell.

Agreed, as a midfielder Thomas was ahead in 2010. Cyril started to show signs he could handle more game time playing in the midfield towards the middle, and end of the season though , with 27 possessions in the last round against the pies. I'd expect to see him spend even more time in the midfield this year. BTW not sure Thomas is quite elite on 2010 form, certainly very very good though, and would be very happy to have him in a hawk's jumper

 

[hk89]

well he certainly has them covered now doesnt he lol.

Yup.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Suns will have best Midfield. Problem is their Forward line is non-existent.

 

[Bardo State]

By the end of the season the team with the "best midfield" will be the 2011 premiers.

 

[absfab]

Thomas looked like he belonged the instant he stepped over an AFL line.

Honestly, what a load of Bull.

Thomas took a big step up in 2010. Before that he was highly suspect as a massive blunder. All feathers no meat.

It happens. Good for him for working into his potential, but please don't try to rewrite history.

 

[absfab]

By the end of the season the team with the "best midfield" will be the 2011 premiers.

First, I don't agree. The Premier will have a very good midfield. Not neccessarily the best.

Second, if you were correct, then don't bet on Hawthorn for the flag.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

My thoughts on Thomas changed during 09. Prior to that season he was a Leon Davis clone - doing all the showy stuff, getting on the end of possession chains, and not chasing his opponent (leaving him in acres of space on turnovers).

During the 2009 season, he began to take on a role of responsibility (this might have coincided with his midfield move), he started doing more of the 'hard' things - tackles, shepards, long chases, etc.

A piece of play which summed up the 'new' Thomas was against Brisbane. Starting in Pies forward pocket he chased one player, then a second, and finally a third before laying a bump out on the wing. He tapped the ball to a team-mate and got back up to provide a shepard so that his team-mate could dispose without pressure. At the ensuing contest, he arrived to be a link in the chain, spotting up Swan for an easy snap on goal.

All that work, and only one 'stat'.....yet for mine it was the moment he arrived as an equal to his media/public perception.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

First, I don't agree. The Premier will have a very good midfield. Not neccessarily the best.

Second, if you were correct, then don't bet on Hawthorn for the flag.

And what do you think of Hawthorns chances this season absfab??

 

[doppleganger]

Agreed, but as mentioned in the post you replied to, Ellis deserves another year before passing final judgement, Thomas wasn't THAT far ahead until 2010 and had a 1 year head start on Ellis. May not live up to #3, but hopefully has improvement left in him.

Heading into 2009, Thomas already had two top 10 BnF finishes under his belt - 6th in 07 & 8th in 08 (both in finals teams)....he had established himself as one of Collingwood's best players.

He was given a new role in 2009, where MM made him focus on his defensive side, then in 2010 he was released into the middle and is now not only one of Collingwood's best, but comfortably sits with discussions regarding league bests.

Ellis is miles behind Thomas, he was when drafted, in 2009, and is even further behind than ever now.

Hawthorn bombing out in both the 05 & 06 drafts is clearly starting to hurt.....in that period they had 3 top 10 picks - Ellis, Dowler and Thorp - who all seem like poor picks. Because these blokes didn't come on, guys like Bateman, Osborne, Guerra are still keys and they have even gone out and brought in even more veterans like Bruce and Burgoyne.

 

[hk89]

Hawthorn bombing out in both the 05 & 06 drafts is clearly starting to hurt.....in that period they had 3 top 10 picks - Ellis, Dowler and Thorp - who all seem like poor picks. Because these blokes didn't come on, guys like Bateman, Osborne, Guerra are still keys and they have even gone out and brought in even more veterans like Bruce and Burgoyne.

Agreed. Pies seem to have had an excellent hit rate with their drafting over the last few years. Having two top 10 picks delisted after they played so few games was very painful, and will hurt the club for several years to come.

 

[wce4premiership]

Based on the top 5 players i think st. kilda have the best midfield quite comfortably.

Dal santo
Hayes
Goddard
Montagna
Jones (tagger)

Considering dal santo would be the weakest link out of the non taggers is an endorsement for the rest of them.

 

[spartan hawks]

The cats had the best midfield up to 2010.However without being biased i think the hawks have passed them and at the moment have the best midfield for 2011 season.

 

[PieEyedLad]

St. Kilda have the best few players running around in their midfield, undoubtably.

But, I'd feel that clubs would rather be in Collingwood's position, with Swan, Dids, Pendles, Daisy, Ball, Wellers, Sidey, Beamer, Blair and even Johnno all capable of doing a great job on ball. All very, very handy players.

I wouldn't swap our midfield situation with anyone elses, not in a hundred years.