Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[the big lebowski]

Hamas is bad.
Ultra-nationalist Israeli's are bad.
All Nazis are bad.
Bibi is bad.
Putin is bad.
Hezbollah is bad.
Orban is bad.
Lukashenko is bad.
Trump is bad.

There. My positions are clarified. Glad that's settled.

What about me?

 

[Chadwiko]

What about me?

 

[tazaa]

Yes there are many right wing crazies in the Israeli cabinet and across the country as a whole. I’m unsure of what level of support this way of thinking has across the country.

What is the support like for Hamas in Gaza?

Given that Hamas mission statement is to kill Jews, and let the tree hiding the Jew yell out “there is a Jew here” quick kill it. Given that Hamas state their aim is to kill Jews, and they are clearly good at it (see Oct 7 2023).

What do the people of Gaza think about this group that they elected?

Edit: googling things works just as well as asking

Gazans increasingly back a two-state solution, as support for Hamas drops

Support for a two-state solution nearly doubled in Gaza, as fewer back “armed struggle” for an independent Palestinian state.

www.nbcnews.com

So around 34% of Gaza support Hamas post oct 7. Down 13% since oct 7.

So would that mean that 47% of Gaza population would like to kill a Jew hiding behind a tree?

I wonder what % of Australians would like to wipe out another country who elected leadership whose stated aim was to kill any Australian hiding behind a tree and had 47% support to do that?

Hopefully we never have to find out

Edit 2: around 50% of Israelis support a two state solution that would see those that want to murder them for being Jews, given their own country

As international support for an independent Palestine grows, here’s what Israelis and Palestinians now think of the two-state solution

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is opposed to a two-state solution, but many ordinary Israelis and Palestinians don’t feel the same way.

theconversation.com

There is no rationalising this conversation.

There are 700,000 Palestinians who want their homes back.
There are millions more in the 76 years since their grandparents were removed by force that will never be able to return.

The reality is the state of Israel is a failed state, built as settler colonial outpost for Europeans to migrate to and as a strategic ally for the US to have in the middle east. This is simply Zionism.

Starting in the 1880s, the Zionist movement set up colonies in Palestine and promoted Jewish mass immigration.
The movement spread the false and deeply racist idea that Palestine was a land without people for a people without a land. Zionist settler colonialism enjoyed the political support of Western imperial powers.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on 10 November 1975, "Determines that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination" with 72 votes in favour, 35 votes against, and 32 abstentions. It was revoked on 16 December 1991 due to powerful lobbying to give validity to the state of Israel.

You cannot simply take a view upon a conflict that began in 1948 and make sense of it all without acknowledging the above.

The Nakba is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs through their violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is used to describe the events of the 1948 Palestine war in Palestine as well as the ongoing persecution and displacement of Palestinians by Israel.
As a whole, it covers the fracturing of Palestinian society and the long-running rejection of the right of return for Palestinian refugees and their descendants.

It doesn't matter what Palestinian Arabs and Jews want.
The Israeli government is racist, dangerous and has no regard for human life.
Unless the above is acknowledged and used as the starting point, everything else is irrelevant.
Israel has taken something that wasnt theres. They justify it by quoting scriptures that date back 3000 years.
Its bullshit.

Hence why this conflict will go on forever. There will never be peace. And history will always side with the occupied, not the occupiers. So for that, **** Israel.

 

[Chadwiko]

There is no rationalising this conversation.

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

If you don't come in this thread often tazaa there's a bunch of historical context that won't be readily apparent to you.

 

[ferball]

View attachment 2137546

A cover? This is the worst thing I've seen posted in this thread.

 

[tazaa]

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

If you don't come in this thread often tazaa there's a bunch of historical context that won't be readily apparent to you.

No I have been following that narrative.

There needs to be an acknowledgement of the sheer hypocrisy of it all.

Russia has been called out for its actions by the west.
Whereas Israel can cause destruction with impunity and is supported and backed in equivocally without question.

Ukraine is getting help from their aggressor.
Palestine is getting absolutely none.

I’m making the point of never to conflate the 2. At all.

 

[ferball]

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

If you don't come in this thread often tazaa there's a bunch of historical context that won't be readily apparent to you.

The context here has always been US intervention in Ukrainian politics (since 2004 when they sent Paul Manafort to worm his way into Yanukovych's inner circle) led to this war, not "Yay Russia" or any of the shit you claim about people.

BTW Ukraine still discriminates against Roma people, even they are happy to have them fighting Russia. Just not so happy to let them access the same supports other internally displaced people in Ukraine get, or get voting rights/citizenship yet and if they've left the country odds are they won't be allowed back in. (A little bit like what's happened to Palestinians until last year.) You want us to support freedom for some but not for others.

 

[giantroo]

 

[Del191229]

There’s a whole lot of differences but at the end of the day it’s killing people vs killing people.

No it isn't.

That's the same flawed logic that leads Chadwiko to think two pictures of cities in rubble are by definition "the same" because concrete is concrete.

Israel's Prime Minister invoked religion - Amalek - when they started the Gaza campaign, which has been a a very studiously planned and carried out mission to destroy EVERYTHING in Gaza, to make it unhabitable, and done with absolutely no regard for civilian life.

The only organisation recently to carry out that kind of deliberate attempt to wipe out an entire people in the name of religion was Daesh against the Yazidis.

But Daesh was never a state recognised by the UN.

Israel is.

We actually have no real comparator for what Israel is doing in history.

You need to go back to the British Empire or Nazis to find an example of a technologically advanced power using every weapon at its disposal for the express purpose of removing an entire population numbering in the millions - one that is completely defenceless in the face of these advanced weapons.

And doing it completely openly and without and regard at all for basic human rights.

This is unprecedented in our experience - it has not happened in living memory.

Its genocide, plain and simple.

Russia and Ukraine are fighting a war, and have been since 2014 (as Zelensky himself says). Its a big war sure, and the biggest in Europe in living memory.

But its the same scale as the Iran - Iraq War, and all things considered, its quite a strange old school war in that both sides have largely restricted themselves to military targets, and even when civilian/dual use infrastructure is attacked, it hasn't been utterly wiped out in the way Israel has done to Gaza.

Comparing Ukraine and Gaza simply isn't possible. Its apples and oranges, they are not the same thing.

One is a war and the other is a genocide.

To pretend otherwise is to deny the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza, to deny that millions of people are being systemically killed and their entire society destroyed at every single level.

 

[Del191229]

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

You are.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

Right here you're doing it. Literally right here.

You're rationalisng Israel's action by comparing them to what Russia is doing.

Simple question.

Do you believe the Israeli campaign in Gaza since October 7 (they started bombing that very day) is genocide?

 

[Del191229]

There's frigging nightclubs pumping in Kyiv and Lvov, and people are comparing it with Gaza where there's full blown famine and polio has made a resurgence ffs. Catch the **** ontae yourselves.

These are NOT the same things, and pretending they are is clear denial of the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Fact.

 

[andana]

There are 700,000 Palestinians who want their homes back.

The only way seems to be direct action. Most people would fight for it.

 

[Chadwiko]

You're rationalisng Israel's action by comparing them to what Russia is doing.

No, I'm not rationalising Israel's atrocities. I'm highlighting them to contrast and expose your hypocrisy. And you keep making it effective because you are as predictable as ever.

Simple question.

Do you believe the Israeli campaign in Gaza since October 7 (they started bombing that very day) is genocide?

Short answer: yes.

(Longer answer would get into what modern definitions of 'genocide' are in the context of the ICC and how difficult it is to prove such cases, blah blah blah).

You seem to think I'm in some way supportive of Israel's actions in Gaza, when from the very beginning I've been unambiguously opposed.

But hey, since we're on the subject of 'simple questions', I've got one for you;

Do you believe that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is illegal, unjustified, and inexcusable?

I'll wait.

 

[Del191229]

Short answer: yes.

(Longer answer would get into what modern definitions of 'genocide' are in the context of the ICC and how difficult it is to prove such cases, blah blah blah).

Good.

You seem to think I'm in some way supportive of Israel's actions in Gaza, when from the very beginning I've been unambiguously opposed.

No, I don't think you're actively supportive of the genocide.

But hey, since we're on the subject of 'simple questions', I've got one for you;

Do you believe that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is illegal, unjustified, and inexcusable?

I'll wait.

See, this is the mixing apples and oranges.

The real question is do I believe Russia's invasion is genocide.

No I don't.

That's the only comparator when the issue is genocide denial.

Yes, Russia's invasion is clearly illegal under international law.

The other two words you've deployed there are entirely emotive, subjective and frankly pointless when the discussion is a genocide.

Do you think Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a genocide that can be discussed in the same manner as Israel's genocide of the Palestinians of Gaza.

 

[Del191229]

Behind Trump’s Views on Ukraine: Putin’s Gambit and a Political Grudge

The roots of Donald Trump’s animus toward Ukraine — an issue with profound consequences should he be elected again — can be found in a yearlong series of events spanning 2016 and 2017.

www.nytimes.com

That's quite a paragraph.

 

[Liam Boy]

I digress. So Hamas send an army into Israel. They indiscriminately murder men, women, children. They rape, they mutilate, they kidnap.

The October 7th rape claims are widely known to have been lies cooked up by zionists in the immediate aftermath. There is no evidence a single rape was committed by any hamas militant during the Oct 7th attacks. There is no footage of such a thing happening, and there's no accuser, or anyone who claims to have witnessed such a thing. The New York Times' reporting on this matter has been discredited and debunked:

The Story Behind the New York Times October 7 Exposé

“Screams Without Words,” the New York Times story about sexual violence by Jeffrey Gettleman, Adam Sella, and Anat Schwartz comes under fire.

theintercept.com

The beheaded babies line is similar. No evidence, no footage, but Netanyahu still puts it in every speech. He does it because as you've demonstrated, western audiences are primed to believe absolutely anything about Arabs and Palestinians, due to decades of racist hatred and popular depictions of arabs as terrorists, religious fundamentalists etc. There were so many lies about things hamas did on that day that it's hard to know how much of it to believe. Many of them were just reversing actual stories of things the IDF did in Sabra and Shatila, such as cutting a pregnant woman's stomach open and cooking a baby in an oven.

Israel on the other hand actually has been indiscriminately murdering men, women, and children. As well as raping and torturing captives who were arrested without charge in occupied terrority. much of this has been reported in the Israeli english language press:

Doctor who saw abused Gazan detainee: 'I couldn't believe an Israeli guard could do this'

Prof. Yoel Donchin, a Doctor at Sde Teiman Who Saw the Gazan Detainee After He Was Allegedly Abused by Nine Israeli Reservists, Expressed Shock at the Man's Condition. 'I Was Certain This Was Revenge by the Nukhba Against the Nukhba,' He Said, Referring to the Elite Hamas Unit

www.haaretz.com

Israeli army prosecutor: Sde Teiman soldiers beat, tased, sodomized Gaza detainee

The Five IDF Soldiers Arrested Last Month Are Accused of Severely Abusing a Palestinian Detainee. The Military Prosecutor Had Requested They Remain Under House Arrest for an Additional Two Weeks

www.haaretz.com

 

[Del191229]

The October 7th rape claims are widely known to have been lies cooked up by zionists in the immediate aftermath. There is no evidence a single rape was committed by any hamas militant during the Oct 7th attacks. There is no footage of such a thing happening, and there's no accuser, or anyone who claims to have witnessed such a thing. The New York Times' reporting on this matter has been discredited and debunked:

The Story Behind the New York Times October 7 Exposé

“Screams Without Words,” the New York Times story about sexual violence by Jeffrey Gettleman, Adam Sella, and Anat Schwartz comes under fire.

theintercept.com

The beheaded babies line is similar. No evidence, no footage, but Netanyahu still puts it in every speech. He does it because as you've demonstrated, western audiences are primed to believe absolutely anything about Arabs and Palestinians, due to decades of racist hatred and popular depictions of arabs as terrorists, religious fundamentalists etc. There were so many lies about things hamas did on that day that it's hard to know how much of it to believe. Many of them were just reversing actual stories of things the IDF did in Sabra and Shatila, such as cutting a pregnant woman's stomach open and cooking a baby in an oven.

Israel on the other hand actually has been indiscriminately murdering men, women, and children. As well as raping and torturing captives who were arrested without charge in occupied terrority. much of this has been reported in the Israeli english language press:

Doctor who saw abused Gazan detainee: 'I couldn't believe an Israeli guard could do this'

Prof. Yoel Donchin, a Doctor at Sde Teiman Who Saw the Gazan Detainee After He Was Allegedly Abused by Nine Israeli Reservists, Expressed Shock at the Man's Condition. 'I Was Certain This Was Revenge by the Nukhba Against the Nukhba,' He Said, Referring to the Elite Hamas Unit

www.haaretz.com

Israeli army prosecutor: Sde Teiman soldiers beat, tased, sodomized Gaza detainee

The Five IDF Soldiers Arrested Last Month Are Accused of Severely Abusing a Palestinian Detainee. The Military Prosecutor Had Requested They Remain Under House Arrest for an Additional Two Weeks

www.haaretz.com

Aside from all, an attack like October 7 isn't justification for the genocide of Gaza. There is no justification for genocide.

 

[Chadwiko]

The real question is do I believe Russia's invasion is genocide.

No I don't.

Yes, Russia's invasion is clearly illegal under international law.

The other two words you've deployed there are entirely emotive, subjective and frankly pointless when the discussion is a genocide.

What is there to equivocate and obfuscate on? I think most rational observers would agree without difficulty that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is "inexcusable" and "unjustified". Those words aren't emotive or "frankly pointless".

Also, the discussion is not focused on "genocide" - that's just an attempt by you to reframe the discussion to suit your narrative, but I'm not playing your game.

There are precious few scenarios where an act of aggression on one country is "justifiable" by another country, and precisely zero of those scenarios apply to the Ukrainian conflict.

But once again, when presented with the opportunity to defend and excuse Russia's atrocities, you do what you always do.

Thank you for proving the point I was making all along.

 

[Del191229]

Also, the discussion is not focused on "genocide" - that's just an attempt by you to reframe the discussion to suit your narrative, but I'm not playing your game.

Yes it is, you posted two pics saying what Israel is doing in Gaza and what Russia is doing in Ukraine are the same.

I said that was genocide denial, you had a big wig out, here we are. Discussing genocide denial.

It is literally the question at hand.

Do you think Russia's invasion/war in Ukraine is a genocide like the one we've agreed Israel is carrying out in Gaza.

There are precious few scenarios where an act of aggression on one country is "justifiable" by another country, and precisely zero of those scenarios apply to the Ukrainian conflict.

But once again, when presented with the opportunity to defend and excuse Russia's atrocities, you do what you always do.

Thank you for proving the point I was making all along.

Right now you're proving my point that comparing Russia's actions in Ukraine with what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide denial and that you're a contemporary Holocaust denier accordingly.

 

[Del191229]

The US invasion and occupation of Iraq is a plausible comparison for Russia in Ukraine.

It led to atrocities like Haditha, killed hundreds of thousands, led to ongoing terrorist threats.

But it wasn't a genocidal enterprise like what Israel is doing to Gaza.

 

[Chadwiko]

Yes it is, you posted two pics saying what Israel is doing in Gaza and what Russia is doing in Ukraine are the same.

Nope!
Nice try at reframing the issue to suit your narrative -that is classic 'you'- but nope!
I posted those pics of what Russia did to Vovchansk specifically to refute prior claims by you that 'Russia isn't levelling cities'.

You attempted to divert the topic to make it seem like me pushing back on your pro-Russian claims was somehow me denying the Israeli atrocities in Gaza are tantamount to Genocide (a claim I've never denied, by the way) because that is what you always do when backed into a corner; you shift the goal-posts and go on the attack.

It's why everyone who disagrees with you about Russia/Ukraine gets labelled a 'nazi' or 'nazi sympathiser' by you at some point. It's inevitable. And it's transparent. And it's pathetic.

Do you think Russia's invasion/war in Ukraine is a genocide like the one we've agreed Israel is carrying out in Gaza.

Simply on the basis of 'scale', the answer has to be 'no'.

However, both Israel and Russia are guilty of;

• Targeting civilians
• Targeting civilian infrastructure
• Carpet bombing cities
• Using overwhelming and excessive military force against soft-targets
• Their military forces committing war crimes and atrocities, including rape, the use of prohibited weapons, terror tactics, and the like
• Their entire military campaigns/operations/war being unjustified and disproportionate
• etc etc

You want to try and shift the goalposts to make it seem as if just because life in Kyiv is comparatively safe compared to Gaza, that you cannot compare the Ukrainian and Gazan conflicts. Well to that I'd say; more Ukrainians have died in this conflict than Palestinians in Gaza. So yes, I do think there are comparisons to be made that have merit without falling into what you describe as "genocide denial".

And that is the difference between you and me, that deep down you know but refuse to come to grips with; only one of us has been consistent and uniform in their condemnation of both Russia and Israel's atrocities. And it ain't you.

...comparing Russia's actions in Ukraine with what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide denial and that you're a contemporary Holocaust denier accordingly.

There you go again. You just can't help yourself, can you. It's sad really.

 

[Del191229]

Nope!
Nice try at reframing the issue to suit your narrative -that is classic 'you'- but nope!
I posted those pics of what Russia did to Vovchansk specifically to refute prior claims by you that 'Russia isn't levelling cities'.

I'm not sure when I ever made that claim, seems like something you invented, I clearly do occupy a lot of your thoughts lol.

You attempted to divert the topic to make it seem like me pushing back on your pro-Russian claims was somehow me denying the Israeli atrocities in Gaza are tantamount to Genocide (a claim I've never denied, by the way) because that is what you always do when backed into a corner; you shift the goal-posts and go on the attack.

Bro what are you even on about.

It's why everyone who disagrees with you about Russia/Ukraine gets labelled a 'nazi' or 'nazi sympathiser' by you at some point. It's inevitable. And it's transparent. And it's pathetic.

OK.

Simply on the basis of 'scale', the answer has to be 'no'.

Good, finally, after all the bluster we finally get there.

However, both Israel and Russia are guilty of;

• Targeting civilians
• Targeting civilian infrastructure
• Carpet bombing cities
• Using overwhelming and excessive military force against soft-targets
• Their military forces committing war crimes and atrocities, including rape, the use of prohibited weapons, terror tactics, and the like
• Their entire military campaigns/operations/war being unjustified and disproportionate
• etc etc

Ahhh, here comes the weasel bit.

Both have done that yes, but Israel at a such a level as have conducted a genocide on Gaza, Russia has not conducted a genocide on Ukraine.

You want to try and shift the goalposts to make it seem as if just because life in Kyiv is comparatively safe compared to Gaza, that you cannot compare the Ukrainian and Gazan conflicts.

Well, yeah, its a pretty good measure ... as most rational people would agree lol.

You're again dancing perilously close to genocide denial.

There is NO comparison between life in Kyiv in Gaza. None.

One is utterly destroyed, its population slaughtered, every school, hospital, power plant, water treatment facility destroyed, the entirety of it in rubble.

Kyiv still has pumping nightclubs ffs.

Well to that I'd say; more Ukrainians have died in this conflict than Palestinians in Gaza. So yes, I do think there are comparisons to be made that have merit without falling into what you describe as "genocide denial".

Interesting.

Certainly the civilian casualties in Ukraine are far far below what Israel has inflicted on Gaza. That's fact.

Most estimates from international organisations have Ukranian civilian casualties at about 40kish, with 15k dead. In over two years of war.

In a year Israel has killed over 150k Gazans if we go by The Lancet, reality is probably far higher.

Gaza toll could exceed 186,000, Lancet study says

The study finds factors like diseases will lead to many more indirect deaths in the long run even if the war stops now.

www.aljazeera.com

And you usually hold up what the Ukranian government says as fact - so let's do that - Ukraine says its lost 31,000 soldiers (albeit earlier this year)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/25/ukraine-war-casualties-zelensky-russia/

These numbers don't add up.

The reality is Israel has killed multiples more people in Gaza, the vast majority civilians, in far less time.

The majority of Ukranian casualties are military too. Personally I think you're actually right, that Ukranian military losses over the two years probably do surpass Israel's toll of civilians in gaza.

Ukraine's probably lost 200k soldiers imo.

But that doesn't fit your narrative so ... ummmmmm.

(Also, and like, I'm stunned this needs to be repeated, but its Israel relentless murder of civilians that makes a genocide, among other things).

And that is the difference between you and me, that deep down you know but refuse to come to grips with; only one of us has been consistent and uniform in their condemnation of both Russia and Israel's atrocities. And it ain't you.

LOL, keep telling yourself that. Whatever.

There you go again. You just can't help yourself, can you. It's sad really.

Its not something I throw about lightly.

 

[Del191229]

This isn't about me downplaying what Russia has done in Ukraine ... its about the scale of the destruction in Gaza.

We've not seen anything like this.

Yes, cities have been destroyed like Grozny or Mosul during fighting.

But we've never seen an entire multi million population urban centre COMPLETLEY destroyed with modern advanced weapons as a tactic of collective punishment.

 

[Chadwiko]

Strap yourselves in folks.

I'm not sure when I ever made that claim, seems like something you invented, I clearly do occupy a lot of your thoughts lol.

You're not sure? That's okay - I am sure. I remember it well.

You know what's interesting though? It appears a lot of your posts in question on the topic have suddenly been deleted. How convenient. I'm sure you'd never delete your own posts in an effort to hide what you previously said in a losing argument, would you?

Case in point;

Here's me quoting a post of yours where you say facetiously that Russia was justified in "using full bore military force" on Mariupol despite it being a city of 500,000;




But when I click on the actual post of yours? It's mysteriously gone!



Funny how several of your posts from this discussion seem to be gone. But you seem to have forgotten that when posts are deleted, if someone has quoted the now-deleted posts they still show up;



As you can see, I've been consistent on this issue for over a year; levelling cities is bad. No matter who is doing it.

Bro what are you even on about.

You know exactly what's being discussed. You're just losing the argument so you're playing dumb, obfuscating, and shifting the goal-posts.

Ahhh, here comes the weasel bit.

Both have done that yes, but...

No. There is no 'but' here. Both are bad. Both are atrocities. Both are evil acts of aggression. The fact that Gaza is a smaller target doesn't change that.

There is NO comparison between life in Kyiv in Gaza. None.

And the only person trying to suggest there is a comparison is you.

Because you know full well Kyiv is not where the conflict is (despite you blustering with bravado that 'Kyiv will fall within two weeks' at the start of the conflict as you led the cheerleading for Putin here on BigFooty).

Certainly the civilian casualties in Ukraine are far far below what Israel has inflicted on Gaza. That's fact.

Most estimates from international organisations have Ukranian civilian casualties at about 40kish, with 15k dead. In over two years of war.

In a year Israel has killed over 150k Gazans if we go by The Lancet, reality is probably far higher.

Gaza toll could exceed 186,000, Lancet study says

The study finds factors like diseases will lead to many more indirect deaths in the long run even if the war stops now.

www.aljazeera.com

Okay, well let's be clear. There are not 150,000 dead Gazans. The link you provided says the following if you had actually bothered to read it;

"According to Gaza’s Ministry of Health, more than 38,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its military offensive on October 7 in the wake of deadly Hamas attacks."

So, there's 38,000~ dead in Gaza. Of which approximately 17,000 are children. Those are awful, awful figures and do not attempt for one second to suggest that I'm saying anything to the contrary.

In raw numbers, and using the Palestinian authorities own numbers, that equates to approximately 1 out of every 55 Palestinians living in Gaza has lost their life.

And you usually hold up what the Ukranian government says as fact - so let's do that - Ukraine says its lost 31,000 soldiers (albeit earlier this year)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/25/ukraine-war-casualties-zelensky-russia/

"Earlier this year" as in... almost a full year ago. Nice try.

The currently generally accepted Ukranian casualty count is;

12,000-14,000 civilian deaths
80,000-100,000 military deaths
(Speaking of believing Russia, Russia claims that Ukraine's actual death toll is 500,000. Which would be a figure that represents 1 in 4 of every Palestinian citizen by the way).

These numbers don't add up.

Your numbers don't add up, because you got them wrong at the outset. My numbers add up fine.

The reality is Israel has killed multiples more people in Gaza, the vast majority civilians, in far less time.

No, that's simply not correct. And me pointing out that your basic math is wrong is not any form of "genocide denial" before you attempt to suggest as much.

The majority of Ukranian casualties are military too.

Sure, but it's not an easy comparison because it's borderline impossible to determine the difference between a civilian and a Hamas militant, especially when Israel claims all civilians are Hamas, and Hamas claims that all militants are civilians.

LOL, keep telling yourself that. Whatever.

I don't need to keep telling myself. It's readily apparent. And besides, I have enough people PMing me and laughing at you and encouraging me to continue taking you to school to keep me going.

Its not something I throw about lightly.

It comes like breathing to you.

Go on, call me (a Jewish guy) a "nazi" again. I know you want to.

 

[Del191229]

Strap yourselves in folks.

It is quite entertaining how you really think you're playing to an audience here. You do it all the time, like telling me how my reputation on here is shit and so on. It's very weird.

You're not sure? That's okay - I am sure. I remember it well.

Man you didn't even remember posting about your own birthday on here ffs.

You know what's interesting though? It appears a lot of your posts in question on the topic have suddenly been deleted. How convenient. I'm sure you'd never delete your own posts in an effort to hide what you previously said in a losing argument, would you?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL jesus and his mother, the posts don't exist because you invented this shit in your head .

Case in point;

Here's me quoting a post of yours where you say facetiously that Russia was justified in "using full bore military force" on Mariupol despite it being a city of 500,000;

View attachment 2138288

Yeah, I said they did it you buffoon. A second ago you were accusing me of denying that Russia had ever levelled cities.

Christ almighty.

But when I click on the actual post of yours? It's mysteriously gone!

View attachment 2138292

OK you're going full online tragic nuff here.

Funny how several of your posts from this discussion seem to be gone. But you seem to have forgotten that when posts are deleted, if someone has quoted the now-deleted posts they still show up;

View attachment 2138296

Oh man, its not me deleting the posts, its the mods deleting the long fights that ensue whenever you say some dumb shit, and I call it out.

These wigouts inevitably end with you telling everyone for the 69th time that you're Jewish, with the clear implication (sometimes actually started) that daring to disagree with you, the Jewish super genius, is anti-semitic.

As you can see, I've been consistent on this issue for over a year; levelling cities is bad. No matter who is doing it.

So the US and its allies shouldn't have levelled Mosul or Raqqa to destroy Daesh?

See, this is where your stupid childish American insistence on right and wrong and good guys and bad guys always always always catches you out.

You know exactly what's being discussed. You're just losing the argument so you're playing dumb, obfuscating, and shifting the goal-posts.



No. There is no 'but' here. Both are bad. Both are atrocities. Both are evil acts of aggression. The fact that Gaza is a smaller target doesn't change that.

Its not the fact that Gaza is a smaller target, its that Israel has systematically destroyed the entire place in a way that Russia has not done to Ukraine.

These are facts your struggle to process for some reason.

And the only person trying to suggest there is a comparison is you.

Because you know full well Kyiv is not where the conflict is (despite you blustering with bravado that 'Kyiv will fall within two weeks' at the start of the conflict as you led the cheerleading for Putin here on BigFooty).

No sherlock shit for brains, that's the entire point. Russia hasn't extended its war into a Ukraine wide campaign of extermination against all Ukrainians and all their institutions and facilities.

You're literally agreeing with me.

Okay, well let's be clear. There are not 150,000 dead Gazans. The link you provided says the following if you had actually bothered to read it;

I did read it you awful little genicide denier.

"According to Gaza’s Ministry of Health, more than 38,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its military offensive on October 7 in the wake of deadly Hamas attacks."

And as The Lancet says:

The study pointed out that the death toll is higher because the official toll does not take into account thousands of dead buried under rubble and indirect deaths due to destruction of health facilities, food distribution systems and other public infrastructure.

So, there's 38,000~ dead in Gaza. Of which approximately 17,000 are children. Those are awful, awful figures and do not attempt for one second to suggest that I'm saying anything to the contrary.

No, the toll is far higher and you're engaging in active genocide denial here, it is utterly disgusting.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2024/10/8/one-year-of-israels-war-on-gaza-by-the-numbers

"Earlier this year" as in... almost a full year ago. Nice try.

The currently generally accepted Ukranian casualty count is;

12,000-14,000 civilian deaths
80,000-100,000 military deaths

"Generally accepted" now lol, old mate Zelensky not good enough for you.

(Speaking of believing Russia, Russia claims that Ukraine's actual death toll is 500,000. Which would be a figure that represents 1 in 4 of every Palestinian citizen by the way).

You still don't understand the difference between soldiers and civilians do you.

Your numbers don't add up, because you got them wrong at the outset. My numbers add up fine.

That's what the Holocaust deniers who say 6 million weren;t killed say too.

No, that's simply not correct. And me pointing out that your basic math is wrong is not any form of "genocide denial" before you attempt to suggest as much.

Sorry, in Australia we say maths. Only people who have completely and utterly absorbed a US worldview say "math".

Sure, but it's not an easy comparison because it's borderline impossible to determine the difference between a civilian and a Hamas militant, especially when Israel claims all civilians are Hamas, and Hamas claims that all militants are civilians.

Oh my God, absolute standard genocide denial.

Are you saying the Palestinian children shot in huge numbers by Israeli troops - actively targeted and murdered - are borderline impossible to tell them from Hamas guys.

This is some of the sickest shit I've ever seen posted on here.

I don't need to keep telling myself. It's readily apparent. And besides, I have enough people PMing me and laughing at you and encouraging me to continue taking you to school to keep me going.

Wow, you must be cool as, big news here on the internet.

It comes like breathing to you.

Go on, call me (a Jewish guy) a "nazi" again. I know you want to.

There it is.