Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[Del191229]

The big idea: is nostalgia killing politics?

From the Tories’ Thatcher fixation to Labour’s Blair fetish, ideas from the past are poisoning the political present

www.theguardian.com

This is an excellent piece. It's UK centric but has plenty of resonance here where Keating, Howard and at a Vic level Kennett still dominate thinking

 

[Del191229]

By the way, it's quite telling that you have to post tweets from hardcore facist twitter accounts to find pro-Russian war content. Not the first time you've posted that dude, either.

Pretty gross stuff, tbh.

The point is the video, not the handle. I don't like that person's politics, but they have good war content.

And facts aren't pro or anti anyone.

Or are we at the point where you're going to deny your own lying eyes because what you see doesn't fit what you want to see.

(What you're doing here - attack the the source to distract from the content - is harsh right politics 101. Trumpism writ large)

 

[Del191229]

Still do. There's daily footage that goes online of the Shaheeds getting shot down. Here's one from the last 8~ hours, just by way of example;

Yeah I know, their main purpose is to engage and exhaust air defence.

But them flying in broad daylight like that is relatively new, especially given it seems to be happening lots and lots more.

 

[Chadwiko]

(What you're doing here - attack the the source to distract from the content - is harsh right politics 101. Trumpism writ large)

I knew this would be your response (so predictable).

That's specifically why I first responded separately purely based on the content, and then pointed out that sharing hardcore fascists is gross.

 

[travelli]

I've spent over 30 years hearing white people do this shit. Its rude and ****en annoying. You can say what you like about your personal opinion on Thorpe. I couldn't care less.

Why is she the wrong person to say "Give us back our land!"? Are you that clueless that you think you can make that judgement.


All that may be true.

Its still not your place to say she's the wrong messenger to tell Australia's head of state "Give us back our land."

She's not speaking for you.

THe whole subject might not have come up if she didnt say anything. Now it is a global talking point.

 

[giantroo]

 

[DesertRoo]

The point is the video, not the handle. I don't like that person's politics, but they have good war content.


And facts aren't pro or anti anyone.

Or are we at the point where you're going to deny your own lying eyes because what you see doesn't fit what you want to see.

(What you're doing here - attack the the source to distract from the content - is harsh right politics 101. Trumpism writ large)

I’m so busy I can’t keep up with this tread at the moment but you’re going to have Marshall McLuhan turning is his grave with logic like that..

 

[travelli]

You wonder what the final solution will be for the people of Palestine

 

[Del191229]

Russian soldiers are trolling

 

[Del191229]

Hmm various accounts on Twitter were claiming last week that the Houthis shot down a Growler.

 

[Del191229]

That's specifically why I first responded separately purely based on the content, and then pointed out that sharing hardcore fascists is gross.

If we want to understand what is happening in the world, we need to understand all perspectives.

I know you find information and ideas that challenge your very rigid worldview hard to process.

But others are different, accept it.

I interviewed all kinds of scumbags from convicted murderers to George Osborne in my day lol.

 

[Del191229]

Moldova stuff is interesting given its location and the huge arsenal in Transnistria

 

[Chadwiko]

If we want to understand what is happening in the world, we need to understand all perspectives.

I know you find information and ideas that challenge your very rigid worldview hard to process.

But others are different, accept it.

Is that what you tell yourself?
That's how you internally justify following + repeatedly signal-boosting a bunch of hardcore fascists, while trying to convince yourself you're still a real and radical progressive?

Do you stand in front of the mirror and think "It's not weird or concerning that the only places I'm getting the reports on the Ukrainian war that prove how well Russia is doing are from unabashed and unashamed fascists on social media, because that just makes me an enlightened lefty. I'm not looking at the messenger, I'm looking at the message!"

I mean, you literally just did it again;




You shared that post of the North Korean flag near the (cough cough) "liberated" Ukranian village of Tsukurino, because 'omg lol those cheeky Russians. Such trolls! ' (let's ignore for a second why/how Russians on the frontline of a warzone in occupied Ukraine could possibly source a North Korean flag so quickly for a "troll")... and then while on the same Twitter profile of that account, you noticed the story of the Growler crash.
How did that same Twitter account share it? Oh that's right, with the implication that it crashed because the pilots were female, stirring up his fascist followers into predictable hate and bigotry;









Btw... that same account that you posted because we "need to understand all perspectives" loves to repost and signal boost your classic good old fashioned anti-semitic George Soros conspiracies, etc




Not to mention pretty sick shit like referring to captured Ukrainian soldiers as "meat batches" (but please, tell me again how your delicate sensitivities are harmed by people calling the Russians "orcs");





You know what though? You aren't the first and won't be the last smart person to get slowly and successfully radicalised by fascists online. I just hope that you're smart enough to see this as a wake-up call and come back to reality before it's too late. It takes a big person to have the self-awareness to recognise when they've gone in too deep to something that has betrayed their own values and morals in the pursuit of tribalism.

Honestly, I'd respect the hell out of you if instead of getting defensive about this and trying to argue against it, you copped to it, put your hand up and said 'my bad', and learned from it.

 

[ferball]

Sorry who does Lydia Thorpe represent? All indigenous people in Australia? All indigenous people in her electorate?

Pretty sure that whatever else indigenous people think of someone, when they get up and say stuff like that most (like every one I've met) would say "**** yeah! Give it back."

Seems it was just a year ago when she was vehemently against the voice despite around 60-70% indigenous support.

So what? Do you know why?

Did she liase with other aboriginal senators, other parties, etc before she launched an international headline grabbing bit of grandstanding.

Dunno, don't care. Why should she.

Breaking every rule of normal common decency as a human being

Not everyone thinks that common decency is bowing to a king ffs. The King of Australia isn't Australian, even if he did go to one of the poshest and most exclusive private schools in the country.

We should probably all be saying "give us back our land."

 

[Del191229]

 

[ferball]

cc ferball

Indigenous elder scolds Lidia Thorpe for yelling ‘disrespectful’ comments at King Charles

Aunty Violet Sheridan says the Victorian senator ‘does not speak for me and my people’ and called yelling of ‘**** the colony’ inappropriate

www.theguardian.com

Yep different indigenous people have very different views on all sorts of things and sometimes it gets quite heated.

 

[Del191229]

Sorry who does Lydia Thorpe represent? All indigenous people in Australia? All indigenous people in her electorate?

She's a Senator for Victoria who was elected comfortably, albeit as a Green

 

[Chadwiko]

Yep different indigenous people have very different views on all sorts of things and sometimes it gets quite heated.

Yup, that's true.

I don't really want to spend a second day debating this issue, because I suspect that in the broader sense, you and I are closer to agreement than disagreement here.

The point I was making yesterday was that Lidia Thorpe is the wrong person to be leading the charge for this valid cause, and I linked that article to provide some additional evidence to the things I was saying about her relationships with many, many Elders that you seemed to disagree with.

 

[Del191229]

Is that what you tell yourself?
That's how you internally justify following + repeatedly signal-boosting a bunch of hardcore fascists, while trying to convince yourself you're still a real and radical progressive?

Do you stand in front of the mirror and think "It's not weird or concerning that the only places I'm getting the reports on the Ukrainian war that prove how well Russia is doing are from unabashed and unashamed fascists on social media, because that just makes me an enlightened lefty. I'm not looking at the messenger, I'm looking at the message!"

I mean, you literally just did it again;

View attachment 2149407


You shared that post of the North Korean flag near the (cough cough) "liberated" Ukranian village of Tsukurino, because 'omg lol those cheeky Russians. Such trolls! ' (let's ignore for a second why/how Russians on the frontline of a warzone in occupied Ukraine could possibly source a North Korean flag so quickly for a "troll")... and then while on the same Twitter profile of that account, you noticed the story of the Growler crash.
How did that same Twitter account share it? Oh that's right, with the implication that it crashed because the pilots were female, stirring up his fascist followers into predictable hate and bigotry;


View attachment 2149408

View attachment 2149413




Btw... that same account that you posted because we "need to understand all perspectives" loves to repost and signal boost your classic good old fashioned anti-semitic George Soros conspiracies, etc

View attachment 2149414


Not to mention pretty sick shit like referring to captured Ukrainian soldiers as "meat batches" (but please, tell me again how your delicate sensitivities are harmed by people calling the Russians "orcs");

View attachment 2149417



You know what though? You aren't the first and won't be the last smart person to get slowly and successfully radicalised by fascists online. I just hope that you're smart enough to see this as a wake-up call and come back to reality before it's too late. It takes a big person to have the self-awareness to recognise when they've gone in too deep to something that has betrayed their own values and morals in the pursuit of tribalism.

Honestly, I'd respect the hell out of you if instead of getting defensive about this and trying to argue against it, you copped to it, put your hand up and said 'my bad', and learned from it.

It's pretty amazing that you can't grasp the very basic notion that RT does not equal endorsement.

You go and wall yourself of even further in what is already a very barren intellectual world.

Some of us are big boys who are perfectly capable of understanding the nasty old complicated world out there.

And the last thing I want is the respect of someone who rats on their footy club to journos (and sends weird PMs to other posters trying to convince them of your point of view.)

 

[Chadwiko]

It's pretty amazing that you can't grasp the very basic notion that RT does not equal endorsement.

I'm not in the business of retweeting/reposting ultra-fascists, so it's not something I've ever had to try and hide behind.

 

[Del191229]

Yup, that's true.

I don't really want to spend a second day debating this issue, because I suspect that in the broader sense, you and I are closer to agreement than disagreement here.

The point I was making yesterday was that Lidia Thorpe is the wrong person to be leading the charge for this valid cause, and I linked that article to provide some additional evidence to the things I was saying about her relationships with many, many Elders that you seemed to disagree with.

What Senator Thorpe did yesterday was the first sensible thing she's done in years lol.

 

[ferball]

Yup, that's true.

I don't really want to spend a second day debating this issue, because I suspect that in the broader sense, you and I are closer to agreement than disagreement here.

The point I was making yesterday was that Lidia Thorpe is the wrong person to be leading the charge for this valid cause, and I linked that article to provide some additional evidence to the things I was saying about her relationships with many, many Elders that you seemed to disagree with.

When someone else stands up and does it then Lydia Thorpe won't be the person leading that charge will she.

Someone does have to say this, no one else stood up.

Its not a polite or comfortable thing to do so in some ways its better that a person many consider a ratbag does it. Then other people can say privately "well she has a point but we'd prefer to be polite and respectful about it."

What you posted was one of thousands of elders around the country, all of whom will differing opinions on what she said depending on all sorts of things they take into consideration. Its not my business to pass any sort of judgement on any of that. I can see why she thinks that was inappropriate. Indigenous people put alot of importance on respect and protocol, which is why welcome to country, and acknowledgement of elders (even if no indigenous epople are present) means so much to them.

Others would say there comes a time when protocols need to be challenged and paying them lip service when the respect they are sposed to engender is a one way street and not coming back is inappropriate in itself. There are times when the status quo needs to be publicly challenged and disrespected. In the old days this might even lead to war.

 

[ferball]

Is this really someone saying wtte of "its traumatic that we had to run over hundreds of people with a bulldozer."

 

[Del191229]

I'm not in the business of retweeting/reposting ultra-fascists, so it's not something I've ever had to try and hide behind.

Didn't you RT Visegrad lol?

I completely understand the "no platform for fascists" position from an activist position.

But this is a place to share and discuss information on world events.

I know no matter how many times I say Putin is a siloviki piece of shit who ordered the murder of a hero of mine in Anna Polistskavaya you'll just skate over it.

The real issue here is you're just another aggressive white male know it all who wants to shut down anyone or any facts that challenges your worldview.

 

[Del191229]

When someone else stands up and does it then Lydia Thorpe won't be the person leading that charge will she.

Someone does have to say this, no one else stood up.

Its not a polite or comfortable thing to do so in some ways its better that a person many consider a ratbag does it. Then other people can say privately "well she has a point but we'd prefer to be polite and respectful about it."

What you posted was one of thousands of elders around the country, all of whom will differing opinions on what she said depending on all sorts of things they take into consideration. Its not my business to pass any sort of judgement on any of that. I can see why she thinks that was inappropriate. Indigenous people put alot of importance on respect and protocol, which is why welcome to country, and acknowledgement of elders (even if no indigenous epople are present) means so much to them.

Others would say there comes a time when protocols need to be challenged and paying them lip service when the respect they are sposed to engender is a one way street and not coming back is inappropriate in itself. There are times when the status quo needs to be publicly challenged and disrespected. In the old days this might even lead to war.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm genuinely amazed Aboriginal people aren't blowing up trains stations.

And very glad that's not happening.