The Perth Thread

[BluesMan]

I knew it was coming though - people always want to blame someone else particularly the authorities

Yep, it's just sad. Taking ownership and copping something on the chin is hard for some to do

 

[Off The Couch]

Do we truly believe that a flashing sign advising of reduced visibility would of slowed them down - people totally ignore the reduce speed signs on the freeway when works are in progress let alone at 4.30am in the morning when minimal traffic is around.

I am not in anyway laying the blame of this accident on the truck driver but IMO trucks have become a major issue on the Kwinana freeway - watching them in your rear view mirror as they change lanes doing 100 coming up behind you puts the fear into you - there is no possible way they would be able to stop in a hurry should they need to do so. There just seems so many of them now between Rockingham and leach highway. For some reason I alwayd thought trucks had to stay in the left lane but obviously I was wrong.

 

[Teriyakicat]

They haven't really provided much detail in the news reports I've seen - I made a comment earlier that the truck was likely travelling fairly fast to have rolled over like that. Given visibility was shit, I'm surprised he was travelling at any sort of speed. Just how the crash occurred though I've no idea

I was looking out that way later that morning as I drove over the freeway and wondered where the smoke had come from- there was a long band of smoke stretched out towards the east - it ran for kilometers.
I wonder how thick that smoke band actually was (EDIT- not "thick"- I meant "wide"- and was there a gradual decrease in visibility or was visibility suddenly extremely poor?)- ie if you were tearing up the freeway at 100kph and suddenly hit it, would you have time to react if you suddenly lost all visibility? There might not have been any warning- just say the person who's 100-200m in front of you suddenly hits the smoke band and slows down, you're choofing along behind them and hit the smoke band a few seconds later.... I reckon that you might have run over the top of them before you had the chance to put your brakes on.

It's a tough one- who, in the wee hours of the morning, is going to know who to call to say there's smoke on the road when it's so dark outside, you wouldn't know where the smoke was until you drove through it? By the time the message has filtered up to reach the people who are able to act on it, there's been a bloody horrific accident.
I wouldn't blame the Main Roads people- I blame the little shits that started the fire in the first place (in early Feb). Indirectly, they are to blame.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Do we truly believe that a flashing sign advising of reduced visibility would of slowed them down - people totally ignore the reduce speed signs on the freeway when works are in progress let alone at 4.30am in the morning when minimal traffic is around.

I am not in anyway laying the blame of this accident on the truck driver but IMO trucks have become a major issue on the Kwinana freeway - watching them in your rear view mirror as they change lanes doing 100 coming up behind you puts the fear into you - there is no possible way they would be able to stop in a hurry should they need to do so. There just seems so many of them now between Rockingham and leach highway. For some reason I alwayd thought trucks had to stay in the left lane but obviously I was wrong.

Signs often now advise left and middle lanes.

 

[Keys]

I was looking out that way later that morning as I drove over the freeway and wondered where the smoke had come from- there was a long band of smoke stretched out towards the east - it ran for kilometers.
I wonder how thick that smoke band actually was- ie if you were tearing up the freeway at 100kph and suddenly hit it, would you have time to react if you suddenly lost all visibility? There might not have been any warning- just say the person who's 100-200m in front of you suddenly hits the smoke band and slows down, you're choofing along behind them and hit the smoke band a few seconds later.... I reckon that you might have run over the top of them before you had the chance to put your brakes on.

It's a tough one- who, in the wee hours of the morning, is going to know who to call to say there's smoke on the road when it's so dark outside, you wouldn't know where the smoke was until you drove through it? By the time the message has filtered up to reach the people who are able to act on it, there's been a bloody horrific accident.
I wouldn't blame the Main Roads people- I blame the little shits that started the fire in the first place (in early Feb). Indirectly, they are to blame.

You make a fair point

 

[Stronzo]

IMO public transport should be free. It runs at a loss anyway, why not free up the roadways and have people using the system then divert the spending on roadways into transport infrastructure?

Increasing ticket prices has seen a decline in patronage AFAIK.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Can't remember how to do the calculations but here's something to think about regarding stopping distances (this is for "normal cars"):

Many drivers, drive in a false belief that if the car in front suddenly started braking, they would react and brake and end up stopped the same distance apart.

The total stopping distance of a vehicle is made up of 4 components.

• Human Perception Time
• Human Reaction Time
• Vehicle Reaction Time
• Vehicle Braking Capability

The human perception time; is how long the driver takes to see the hazard, and the brain realize it is a hazard requiring an immediate reaction. This perception time can be as long as ¼ to ½ a second.

Once the brain realizes danger, the human reaction time is how long the body takes to move the foot from accelerator to brake pedal. Again this reaction time can vary from ¼ - ¾ of a second.

These first 2 components of stopping distance are human factors and as such can be effected by tiredness, alcohol, fatigue and concentration levels. A perception and reaction time of 3 or 4 seconds is possible. 4 seconds at 100 km/hr means the car travels 110 metres before the brakes are applied.

Once the brake pedal is applied there is the vehicles reaction time which depends on the brake pedal free-play, hydraulic properties of the brake fluid and working order of the braking system.

http://www.sdt.com.au/safedrive-directory-STOPPINGDISTANCE.htm


Here's a table of stopping distances of "trucks"- of unlisted tonnage:
http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/stopping.htm

A truck going at 60mph (a little under 100kph) will take about 300ft to stop- roughly 100m- and do it in about 5 seconds.

100m is a bloody long stopping distance!

 

[kane249]

IMO public transport should be free. It runs at a loss anyway, why not free up the roadways and have people using the system then divert the spending on roadways into transport infrastructure?

Increasing ticket prices has seen a decline in patronage AFAIK.

Charging for parking at the park and rides is stupid as well

 

[Keys]

IMO public transport should be free. It runs at a loss anyway, why not free up the roadways and have people using the system then divert the spending on roadways into transport infrastructure?

Increasing ticket prices has seen a decline in patronage AFAIK.

It seems quite pointless to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on infrastructure only to price it's use too high so that it isn't used to its optimum

 

[Teriyakicat]

You make a fair point

Just heard that the van driver had stopped.
Gees......

 

[gaskin]

Any other students on here notice a tertiary concession price increase this year? I'm chewing through $10 a week for 3 days at Uni when last year I would have gone through not much more than half that.

 

[Off The Couch]

IMO public transport should be free. It runs at a loss anyway, why not free up the roadways and have people using the system then divert the spending on roadways into transport infrastructure?

Increasing ticket prices has seen a decline in patronage AFAIK.

And increase the rates for parking at the same time

 

[Stronzo]

And increase the rates for parking at the same time

And rego for SUVs and non economical cars.

 

[Off The Couch]

Just heard that the van driver had stopped.
Gees......

That's terrible - difficult to decide what to do when it's too thick to drive. It's a bit like torrential rain - you can slow down but that doesn't mean the vehicle behind you is going to do the same.

 

[kane249]

If you are going to stop, pull over to the emergency lane where it's safe.

 

[Off The Couch]

If you are going to stop, pull over to the emergency lane where it's safe.

If it was as thick as they say, it would be quite nerve racking pulling across lanes to the emergency lane, but to just stop - I'm just not sure what he was thinking. Terrible price to pay

 

[kfc1]

What speed have they reported him to have been travelling at?
I'm surprised that the police have released details of the crash so quickly- they usually take a lot longer than that... or is this what the media vultures have concluded?

I havent seen any speed mentioned, just the poor visibility. Regardless, the truck driver killed two people when he hit them from.behind, therefore driving way too fast for conditions. The road rules are quite explicit about driving at a safe speed and distance behind another vehicle.

 

[kfc1]

Can't remember how to do the calculations but here's something to think about regarding stopping distances (this is for "normal cars"):

Many drivers, drive in a false belief that if the car in front suddenly started braking, they would react and brake and end up stopped the same distance apart.

The total stopping distance of a vehicle is made up of 4 components.

• Human Perception Time
• Human Reaction Time
• Vehicle Reaction Time
• Vehicle Braking Capability

The human perception time; is how long the driver takes to see the hazard, and the brain realize it is a hazard requiring an immediate reaction. This perception time can be as long as ¼ to ½ a second.

Once the brain realizes danger, the human reaction time is how long the body takes to move the foot from accelerator to brake pedal. Again this reaction time can vary from ¼ - ¾ of a second.

These first 2 components of stopping distance are human factors and as such can be effected by tiredness, alcohol, fatigue and concentration levels. A perception and reaction time of 3 or 4 seconds is possible. 4 seconds at 100 km/hr means the car travels 110 metres before the brakes are applied.

Once the brake pedal is applied there is the vehicles reaction time which depends on the brake pedal free-play, hydraulic properties of the brake fluid and working order of the braking system.

http://www.sdt.com.au/safedrive-directory-STOPPINGDISTANCE.htm


Here's a table of stopping distances of "trucks"- of unlisted tonnage:
http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/stopping.htm

A truck going at 60mph (a little under 100kph) will take about 300ft to stop- roughly 100m- and do it in about 5 seconds.

100m is a bloody long stopping distance!

Good post. Keep this in mind next time a truck is up your ass. If its a car you might survive but a truck will kill you.

 

[RU_]

Came back past Kwinana freeway entry on Sunday morning at about 3am on the way home from fishing, was absolutely horrid to try and see through the smoke. Would have thought it would be dispersed by then, but was just thick as can be.

 

[Teriyakicat]

That's terrible - difficult to decide what to do when it's too thick to drive. It's a bit like torrential rain - you can slow down but that doesn't mean the vehicle behind you is going to do the same.

If it was as thick as they say, it would be quite nerve racking pulling across lanes to the emergency lane, but to just stop - I'm just not sure what he was thinking. Terrible price to pay

Yeah- that's very true- both posts.
Details of what happened haven't been released- and probably won't ever be released to the public. The van might very well have pulled across to the emergency lane and stopped- the truck might also have been trying to pull over.

It's just tragic- and people are blaming one or the other parties involved without any evidence to support it.

There was a third vehicle involved- a ute, I think. What part did that vehicle play? I've only read bits and pieces of news reports.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Good post. Keep this in mind next time a truck is up your ass. If its a car you might survive but a truck will kill you.

Don't worry- I'm very aware of trucks and their stopping distances... And very wary..
It pisses me off that there are quite a few truck drivers who seem to not have the first clue. I've seen them tailgate- hanging off the back of another truck or, worse, a car - less than a couple of metres behind, particularly down Leach Highway as they race to turn into Stirling Highway in Freo. Seriously- they should have their licences taken away immediately if that's how they want to drive.

 

[UFO Tatsu]

So CH9 news running the story about how the crash on the kwinana freeway happened and why drivers weren't warned about poor visibility as it was reportedly down to 1 metre which sounds like bs to me

Without wanting to apportion blame it's curious to me that if visibility was that bad why a truck was travelling fast enough to roll in an accident - takes a fair bit of momentum to flip a truck.

And if you can't see very far surely you have the common sense to slow down without having to be told

How exactly do they wish to be "warned" that visibility was poor?

SMS so that they can be warned while on the road? ... wait

Warning signs on the road side informing them of poor visibility? ... wait

 

[Freo Big Fella]

The idea of a "poor visibility warning" is the most ridiculous ****ing thing I've ever heard.

Surely, even for the most self absorbed Perth driver, if you're at the wheel and conditions deteriorate to the point where you can't see shit, you slow down and proceed very carefully until you can.

 

[Off The Couch]

Most talk back radio from truck drivers are laying the blame on the truckie. While it may have been stupid to stop they say that it's obvious that the truck driver was still doing the speed limit rather than slowing right down.

 

[UFO Tatsu]

That's terrible - difficult to decide what to do when it's too thick to drive. It's a bit like torrential rain - you can slow down but that doesn't mean the vehicle behind you is going to do the same.

I was heading towards Margaret River from Albany when we got caught in a pretty big storm. It was bucketing down and you can barely see 5m in front of you. The missus was telling me to stop on the side of the road. I was like no way. If I cannot see what is ahead of me, then a road train isn't either. There is no way I am going to stop any where which isn't a proper resting stop.