The Pre season training thread 2013/14

[True Dog]

Had a bit of a look at this morning's training session. Just a few observations:

• Stringer stood out as one who was struggling with the workload, particularly the contested stuff, poor bugger was up against Libber

 

[fronkalicious]

I watched all of training as well and agree with your observations.... I also thought Cooney moved really well specially the last grueling running drill. Redpath and Roberts look earmarked for the back line this season, they had Redpath paired with Williams in the last running drill and he did well to keep pace with him considering how good Williams was moving... Stringer really struggled when it came down to that last 20 minutes session but he wasn't the worst..... Liam Jones looked like a Zombie from the Walking Dead, he has no tank at all!!! It was embarrassing watching him so far behind his group which consisted of Young and Grant. Even in the second part when it was just Grant (who also struggles aerobically) he fell way way behind.... This kid has so much going for him but unless he discovers how to push through the pain barrier and develops some sort of tank he's going to struggle....BIG TIME

That's why I like him out of the square, with Williams (who has a massive tank) playing up the ground. Jones is an elite contested mark, which will be more deadly if he stays inside 50m. And Williams has much better delivery, making him better suited to passing the footy to advantage inside 50m.

Jones actually improved his goal-kicking last season as well.

Williams at CHF and jones out of the square is my preferred key forward combo.

 

[True Dog]

That's why I like him out of the square, with Williams (who has a massive tank) playing up the ground. Jones is an elite contested mark, which will be more deadly if he stays inside 50m. And Williams has much better delivery, making him better suited to passing the footy to advantage inside 50m.

Jones actually improved his goal-kicking last season as well.

Williams at CHF and jones out of the square is my preferred key forward combo.

I agree, he has to play as deep as possible other wise he'll just get exposed the other way.... I just hope we don't see the same thing as we did this year. As the season went on his impact on games became less and less to the point where he's getting beaten by nobody's .... He blows up early and becomes a liability for the rest of the game... Hopefully as you said a fit Williams and Disco Stu will allow us that luxury of playing him from the square

 

[DexterTan]

I did the footy tragic trek from the south east to see the Wednesday training session. Arrived nearly an hour late because of the damn bus detour they've got going on for West Footscray station.

Jack Macrae was looking ripped.

Couldn't even recognize Lukey D.

At the end of the training the lads went to the fence signing and getting pics taken.

Thought I'd have a chat with Nathan Hrovat, who was walking with Libba. Libba decided to come around with Nathan. I was thinking 'Not you Libba!' but well I let that go

Joked with Nathan that I won't be the only one talking to him at the East West Day, like last year. Asked him how his quads were, after all he kept injuring them last year. Said they were fine. I had to do the "I'm outraged" to Libba at him missing out on being named as part of the AA squad. Hrovat joked he should've been captain.

Libba was all 'Aw Shucks'. I told him use that snub, get angry!

Told them we were all excited about the VFL team and (mistakenly) said "You don't need to worry about playing there" to Libba, I forgot about Nathan who was standing next to him. Whoops! But they said, they would be there watching too. I did mention Round 2 will have the VFL and the AFL teams playing one after the other.

BTW the West Footscray station looks pretty damn good.

I said it sucked that Round 1 had to be at Subi but Libba said it was great going there first up. They had no injuries and it was the only time they had to travel to Perth for the season. Get it over and done with.

That was about it.

Happy New Year all.

 

[DexterTan]

We do need someone to give Minson a chop out! Would be so good if Cordy ends up making it - good doublae Minson/Cordy.

What about BTC?

 

[Spud 4]

I did the footy tragic trek from the south east to see the Wednesday training session. Arrived nearly an hour late because of the damn bus detour they've got going on for West Footscray station.

Jack Macrae was looking ripped.

Couldn't even recognize Lukey D.

At the end of the training the lads went to the fence signing and getting pics taken.

Thought I'd have a chat with Nathan Hrovat, who was walking with Libba. Libba decided to come around with Nathan. I was thinking 'Not you Libba!' but well I let that go

Joked with Nathan that I won't be the only one talking to him at the East West Day, like last year. Asked him how his quads were, after all he kept injuring them last year. Said they were fine. I had to do the "I'm outraged" to Libba at him missing out on being named as part of the AA squad. Hrovat joked he should've been captain.

Libba was all 'Aw Shucks'. I told him use that snub, get angry!

Told them we were all excited about the VFL team and (mistakenly) said "You don't need to worry about playing there" to Libba, I forgot about Nathan who was standing next to him. Whoops! But they said, they would be there watching too. I did mention Round 2 will have the VFL and the AFL teams playing one after the other.

BTW the West Footscray station looks pretty damn good.

I said it sucked that Round 1 had to be at Subi but Libba said it was great going there first up. They had no injuries and it was the only time they had to travel to Perth for the season. Get it over and done with.

That was about it.

Happy New Year all.

That is good to hear about Macrae.

 

[paulveed]

That's why I like him out of the square, with Williams (who has a massive tank) playing up the ground. Jones is an elite contested mark, which will be more deadly if he stays inside 50m. And Williams has much better delivery, making him better suited to passing the footy to advantage inside 50m.

Jones actually improved his goal-kicking last season as well.

Williams at CHF and jones out of the square is my preferred key forward combo.

I have always thought the Jones boy should be a CHF. But given that his tank clearly has not grow to anything like the extent it should have by now, I am slowly warming to his playing out of the square [ certainly at least until it does].
But if he does, that means if Williams plays forward, he becomes the CHF, where I still prefer him from the square.
Beginning to wonder if BMac might not do what he did with Grant, and tell Jones it is off to the VFL or specific training by himself, till his problem is resolved.
It would be sad as Jones has so much potential.

 

[Mr. Walker]

That's why I like him out of the square, with Williams (who has a massive tank) playing up the ground. Jones is an elite contested mark, which will be more deadly if he stays inside 50m. .

Not disputing your comment about Jones being an elite contested mark but I do question the value of it if he can't beat his man on the lead. I don't know the real figures but my observation over the years tells me that even the tallest FFs get say 80 per cent of their goals from leads, 5 per cent from high marks and the rest from frees, joe the gooses etc. as good as Jones is at contested marking I don't believe that that alone will be enough.

 

[Mr. Walker]

Redpath and Roberts look earmarked for the back line this season,

I was hoping Roberts would be groomed for the forward line given what I see as a lack of viable options. It is an interesting dilemma for the coach - does he set up systems now for what he sees as the best set up for the year and hope it all goes well or say to himself " I know Williams will be injured for a fair chunk of the season" so set up for the less favourable, but more likely option. I would have probably gone for the latter but maybe that's why I am not the coach.

 

[Interloper]

Not disputing your comment about Jones being an elite contested mark but I do question the value of it if he can't beat his man on the lead. I don't know the real figures but my observation over the years tells me that even the tallest FFs get say 80 per cent of their goals from leads, 5 per cent from high marks and the rest from frees, joe the gooses etc. as good as Jones is at contested marking I don't believe that that alone will be enough.

Agreed. The game is also more aerobically demanding and even full forwards won't have the luxury of staying at home or dropping off their man defensively when they tire which, if Jones' reported lack of aerobic capacity is correct, could well happen in his case. Both Williams and Jones in the forward line also raises the question of the second ruck. Williams suspect shoulders versus Jones struggling to even get to the ruck contest. Fortunately Campbell solves my dilemma.

 

[Interloper]

I'd be happy enough to have a fit Williams in the forward line, probably at CHF. Then it's down to Jones or Campbell. Campbell is a better kick, better in the ruck and likely to improve his marking and general forward game again this year. Is Jones' marking, leading and forward craft that much better than Campbell that we can down grade the second ruck option to the extent that we would? I don't consider Campbell in a pocket (i.e. Williams, Jones and Campbell) to be an option because the mobility of the forward line is then compromised too much. If Williams is either not fit or not sustainable then I'd give Jones more of a chance.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Agreed. The game is also more aerobically demanding and even full forwards won't have the luxury of staying at home or dropping off their man defensively when they tire which, if Jones' reported lack of aerobic capacity is correct, could well happen in his case. Both Williams and Jones in the forward line also raises the question of the second ruck. Williams suspect shoulders versus Jones struggling to even get to the ruck contest. Fortunately Campbell solves my dilemma.

Yep, my preference is for one of cordy or Campbell to play every week for that very reason. Tommy to CHF and hope and pray he stays fit. Jones will need to be shooting the lights out to be in the team, be great if he can.

 

[paulveed]

Given our significantly increased options for forward line players in 2014, it is going to be fascinating to see just what kind of a structure the coach/s opt for.
Will the structure be determined by the players they select to go with, or will the guys they play decide what the structure will be?

I would think given the new interchange rule, our second ruck pretty much has to play down forward [ala like Mat Campbell in the latter games of 2013]. Most of your mids will need to spend an increased part of their 'rest' time as forwards rather than on the bench. How will that impact on the structure of the front 6, and who is selected down there ? Will 2 or 3 of our front 6 be chosen on their ability to run through the midfield, rather than them being a best 6 forward ?

When I look at our list now, we seem to have noticeably more options up forward than we have spots, even without resting mids.
I would love to be the proverbial "fly on the wall" at the first couple of MC selection sessions, or tactics meetings. I think they will be fascinating.

What ever decisions/ideas they go with, I suspect our forward half will need to look and operate markedly differently than it did in 2013, and that will want to appear very early in the season, as we cannot afford to tread water till mid season, then start getting our shite together like last year. Forward momentum needs to begin in the first few rounds, we don't want to be treading water now if we hope to be a contender for finals soon.

Commentators have talked of their being a "log jam" of teams vying for the 5-8 positions this season. We need at the very least to be somewhere inside that log jam, not limping along below it.

 

[Clay]

Had a bit of a look at this morning's training session. Just a few observations:

• Darley looks very fit and is a likely type for some senior games
• so many 'Collingwood Six Footers' (hope the term is not too outdated)
• Williams running well looking pretty fit, limited contact stuff as you would expect
• Known suspects still can't hit targets consistently but uncontested kicking generally good
• Stringer stood out as one who was struggling with the workload, particularly the contested stuff, poor bugger was up against Libber
• Bontempelli strides like a true athlete, very impressive young man

This is good, as it means that Stringer is being challenged and working hard. No point doing it easy.

 

[True Dog]

I was hoping Roberts would be groomed for the forward line given what I see as a lack of viable options. It is an interesting dilemma for the coach - does he set up systems now for what he sees as the best set up for the year and hope it all goes well or say to himself " I know Williams will be injured for a fair chunk of the season" so set up for the less favourable, but more likely option. I would have probably gone for the latter but maybe that's why I am not the coach.

I think long term he will be however for his development I think a prolonged stint down back would be good....He's leaned out a little (as has most of the group IMO) and is moving really well which was encouraging because he tended to look a little like Jonesy late in games (jogging on the spot)

 

[TempleKelvington]

Given our significantly increased options for forward line players in 2014, it is going to be fascinating to see just what kind of a structure the coach/s opt for.
Will the structure be determined by the players they select to go with, or will the guys they play decide what the structure will be?

I would think given the new interchange rule, our second ruck pretty much has to play down forward [ala like Mat Campbell in the latter games of 2013]. Most of your mids will need to spend an increased part of their 'rest' time as forwards rather than on the bench. How will that impact on the structure of the front 6, and who is selected down there ? Will 2 or 3 of our front 6 be chosen on their ability to run through the midfield, rather than them being a best 6 forward ?

When I look at our list now, we seem to have noticeably more options up forward than we have spots, even without resting mids.
I would love to be the proverbial "fly on the wall" at the first couple of MC selection sessions, or tactics meetings. I think they will be fascinating.

What ever decisions/ideas they go with, I suspect our forward half will need to look and operate markedly differently than it did in 2013, and that will want to appear very early in the season, as we cannot afford to tread water till mid season, then start getting our shite together like last year. Forward momentum needs to begin in the first few rounds, we don't want to be treading water now if we hope to be a contender for finals soon.

Commentators have talked of their being a "log jam" of teams vying for the 5-8 positions this season. We need at the very least to be somewhere inside that log jam, not limping along below it.

I think it will be form based. If the form players are all the mid sized guys like Dickson, Stringer, Crameri, Grant and Higgins then we'll go with them and just use one of Cordy or Campbell as the genuine tall who will give will the ruck chop out. If Tommy Williams stays fit then he should make up the second tall, if not then form will dictate who we go with. If Jones is playing well then it could easily be him. I dont' think we'll play 3 talls, but I guess if they are the form guys then maybe we could.

I think we'll see a lot of forward variations and a forward line like this at various stages in a game will not be uncommon

HF: Higgins Crameri Grant

FF: Dahlhaus Stringer Dickson

OR

HF: Cooney Crameri Grant

FF: Dahlhaus Stringer Hrovat

You could throw Macrae in there as well as Stevens, Griff and Murph. Mix and match and most of the new guys can rotate through there when they play. So while I know we need to get better in the tall department and I hope we do, if we don't get the improvement from the tall forwards that we need, the options are still decent. Of course a tall like Campbell in the form he showed late last year really compliments the small and medium forwards and give will the chop out.

I reckon our number one structure is

HF Crameri Williams Grant

FF Dahlhaus Campbell Dickson

 

[True Dog]

Given our significantly increased options for forward line players in 2014, it is going to be fascinating to see just what kind of a structure the coach/s opt for.
Will the structure be determined by the players they select to go with, or will the guys they play decide what the structure will be?

I would think given the new interchange rule, our second ruck pretty much has to play down forward [ala like Mat Campbell in the latter games of 2013]. Most of your mids will need to spend an increased part of their 'rest' time as forwards rather than on the bench. How will that impact on the structure of the front 6, and who is selected down there ? Will 2 or 3 of our front 6 be chosen on their ability to run through the midfield, rather than them being a best 6 forward ?

When I look at our list now, we seem to have noticeably more options up forward than we have spots, even without resting mids.
I would love to be the proverbial "fly on the wall" at the first couple of MC selection sessions, or tactics meetings. I think they will be fascinating.

What ever decisions/ideas they go with, I suspect our forward half will need to look and operate markedly differently than it did in 2013, and that will want to appear very early in the season, as we cannot afford to tread water till mid season, then start getting our shite together like last year. Forward momentum needs to begin in the first few rounds, we don't want to be treading water now if we hope to be a contender for finals soon.

Commentators have talked of their being a "log jam" of teams vying for the 5-8 positions this season. We need at the very least to be somewhere inside that log jam, not limping along below it.

Great post Man, I would love to hear some of those match committee conversations also. I think the dilemma extends beyond the forward line making the whole team selection process both fascinating and critical to our season and development.... Imagine the discussion around trying to pick best 22 with everyone fit..... I posted earlier that the players look learner than previous pre-seasons (less bulk) which suggests a higher emphasis on running and with IC rotations capped possibly more ground time for some? This might influence team selection as well?

 

[True Dog]

I reckon our number one structure is

HF Crameri Williams Grant

FF Dahlhaus Campbell Dickson

A fit Williams in the forward line offers so much flexibility and therefore a lock as far as I'm concerned, he can go back if someone gets a hold of Roughie or Talia and chop out in the ruck for a bit as well...

 

[paulveed]

I think it will be form based. If the form players are all the mid sized guys like Dickson, Stringer, Crameri, Grant and Higgins then we'll go with them and just use one of Cordy or Campbell as the genuine tall who will give will the ruck chop out. If Tommy Williams stays fit then he should make up the second tall, if not then form will dictate who we go with. If Jones is playing well then it could easily be him. I dont' think we'll play 3 talls, but I guess if they are the form guys then maybe we could.

I think we'll see a lot of forward variations and a forward line like this at various stages in a game will not be uncommon

HF: Higgins Crameri Grant

FF: Dahlhaus Stringer Dickson

OR

HF: Cooney Crameri Grant

FF: Dahlhaus Stringer Hrovat

You could throw Macrae in there as well as Stevens, Griff and Murph. Mix and match and most of the new guys can rotate through there when they play. So while I know we need to get better in the tall department and I hope we do, if we don't get the improvement from the tall forwards that we need, the options are still decent. Of course a tall like Campbell in the form he showed late last year really compliments the small and medium forwards and give will the chop out.

I reckon our number one structure is

HF Crameri Williams Grant

FF Dahlhaus Campbell Dickson

Here in TK we come upon some of the difficulties that concern me. Guys like Dal, Coons, Rat and possibly Cramers can spend some time in the midfield. In the future Stringer might prove up to it, but I doubt he is fit enough yet. Grant and Dickson I can't see as mids. With none of Boyd, Libba or Wal overly endowed with pace, could we afford to run Higgo or Gia in the mix as they would only make our midfield pace problem significantly worse.

Generally the talls will need to take their breaks on the bench, as will the defenders predominantly. With the limitations on rotations, a fair % of the mid's breaks will then need to be taken on field. The backline in the modern game is virtually now a no go zone for tired players to hide.

If we take your 3 forward lineups, let us look at them from a rotation perspective. Lineup 1. Given what I have said earlier, I would see Dal as the only one capable of regularly swapping with the mids. Both Cramers himself and BMac I think, have indicated his forays into the midfield will be occasional rather than regular for now. That only leaves one place in the front 6 for rotations.

Lineup 2. works better with Coons, Dal and Rat providing 3 possible options. But it also gives us zero talls. [ As does 1. incidentally].

Lineup 3. More balanced for sure, but it again brings us back to 1 or at best 1.5 rotatable options.

Don't get me wrong, I am not being critical of you or what you put forward, merely pointing out what I was getting at in my original post. I am damned if I have an answer.
Chris Scott pointed out in a commentary he did for AFL.com that these changes [ limited rotations] will lead to endurance athletes being given preference over good footballers with limited tanks.
I am something of a traditionalist, and would prefer at least 2 talls in our front 6. But I think we are then going to need a minimum of 2, and better still 3 of the remaining players to be mids, or seriously mid capable.
Foreseeing this I imagine is why BMac has harped on from day 1 of his tenure, about wanting players who can successfully fill multiple roles. IE, just how many 'pure' forwards can a modern forward line succeed with or carry.
Is this spelling the end for 'one trick ponies', and perhaps why the Matty Panos's etc of this world are no longer on our list. Are we headed for teams with a skeleton of versatile talls, surrounded by little other than a squad of mids?
And is it why we seem to be looking for tallish/er potential mids, so they can double as 'pretend' talls if they are athletic enough, while still functioning as genuine mids?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Jones won't work as a goal-square player - if he can't beat a man heading up the flanks and wings as a CHF, what hope does he have out of the goal square, where delivery is often under pressure, less room to move in, more 3rd man defenders, etc - and if he were to play out of the goal square, that would encourage more long bombs into 50 which is exactly what the modern game is moving away from, now with precision passing into 50 (look at Hawthorn's game style last year).

I can see the arguments of him not playing at CHF, but the fact is it's still a better position than FF.

 

[paulveed]

Great post Man, I would love to hear some of those match committee conversations also. I think the dilemma extends beyond the forward line making the whole team selection process both fascinating and critical to our season and development.... Imagine the discussion around trying to pick best 22 with everyone fit..... I posted earlier that the players look learner than previous pre-seasons (less bulk) which suggests a higher emphasis on running and with IC rotations capped possibly more ground time for some? This might influence team selection as well?

Yeah TD it would be great to be in the room. I like your observation re some modern players going for the 'less bulk'/greater running ability model. Quite a number of players across the league seemed to be moving to a different body shape last season.
The rub is, they need to retain, or even increase their strength at the same time, given mid sized players are increasingly going to have to compete with talls if coaches opt for more mids, and fewer tall players in their teams.
As an ex middle distance runner myself, I can confirm endurance runners generally gravitate to the leaner end of the scale. But as footballers they are still going to need the strength and power as well. Let us hope that Andy Barnett's philosophies and methods re 'power' in athletes can produce just that in our players, ie: power with endurance without sacrificing speed.
I think the really successful finals teams usually have a pretty stable and settled back 6, generally only running other players through there for specific match-up reasons, or to cover injuries etc.

On Williams, I pretty much agree, if fully fit I would expect to see him in the front 50. That is unless AB and BMac can get some serious body onto Fletch R in time for the season, which might give us extra options for F50 talls. Right now I see Williams as unique among our tall options, but FR if he can body up to match his height, has both the skill set and instincts for a quality tall forward who is still capable of playing back.

 

[Interloper]

Brian , from my memory was only 5 10 " There a outs and reasonably solid build.
Ironically his two brothers were the string beans around the 6 3" mark,

Funny how it works with genetics sometimes. Perhaps his mother also brought some height into the equation.
What's interesting to ponder is whether we would have drafted Cordy under the current regime (first round anyway) from a physical perspective. Would the current team have forseen and worn the 5 years of physical development required to get him on the park with any consistency? Or would they have thought, no we'll keep an eye on him in local leagues and pick him up when he's matured a bit (or in this particular case - after St Kilda have delisted him).
With all the talk about the development of various new draftees, the physical rate at which individual players are likely to develop is quite interesting (imo). Being a bit of a horse person, pedigrees are studied and considerable weight is given to the physical development and rate of development of both sides of the family as well as the traits present in the subject itself, and as much as it can be, the age at which the subject is likely to peak or be able to sustain consistent racing is predicted and factored in. They're not all 2yr olds or even 3 yrolds. Some won't be ready till 4 but it's possible that at that age their best will be better than the early maturers produce at 2 or 3. Maybe Macca and his people do a bit of research in that regard at the same time as all the character and footballing assessments are going on. Macca strikes me as someone who has a bit of a knack for seeing what will be with the right preparation.

 

[yebiga]

I am not a Williams for the forward line fan.
First, his history of injuries is likely to undermine any plan and the more important his planned role the greater the pain if and when he goes down. I would plan to use him as the swing man, back pocket to forward pocket as required if and when he is available. In other words he is a bonus, the icing not the cake. The man needs to be managed with extraordinary care and it is simply foolhardy to plan for him to play a key role for 20 or so games in a season.

 

[True Dog]

I am not a Williams for the forward line fan.
First, his history of injuries is likely to undermine any plan and the more important his planned role the greater the pain if and when he goes down. I would plan to use him as the swing man, back pocket to forward pocket as required if and when he is available. In other words he is a bonus, the icing not the cake. The man needs to be managed with extraordinary care and it is simply foolhardy to plan for him to play a key role for 20 or so games in a season.

Not sure at this stage of his career we should be taking the softly softly approach with him (when he's fully recovered).... He's out of contract at the end of the season and he does it all or nothing in my book.... I agree we don't want to structure a forward line around him but no hiding him on the footy ground (IMO).....

 

[Spud 4]

Not sure at this stage of his career we should be taking the softly softly approach with him (when he's fully recovered).... He's out of contract at the end of the season and he does it all or nothing in my book.... I agree we don't want to structure a forward line around him but no hiding him on the footy ground (IMO).....

I agree we cant structure our whole forward line around him but he has got to show something.