Mega Thread The Random Thoughts Thread Part 3: Try Hard with a Kengeance

[Chrizzt]

the only thing stopping it from happening today is there is a law that prohibits the spent fuel returning to Australia. With a stroke of a pen, this could happen very quickly.

Unfortunately Weatherill has overly politicised the debate and this pushing of the referendum is completely against all common sense. The public need to be informed about the issue so they can understand the risks (or lack thereof) but pushing a referendum only gauges public perception at a given point in time. If the referendum shows a lack of support for the nuclear storage then all that proves is that the government was completely inept at communicating their strategy - nothing more.

 

[LukeSA]

Unfortunately Weatherill has overly politicised the debate and this pushing of the referendum is completely against all common sense. The public need to be informed about the issue so they can understand the risks (or lack thereof) but pushing a referendum only gauges public perception at a given point in time. If the referendum shows a lack of support for the nuclear storage then all that proves is that the government was completely inept at communicating their strategy - nothing more.

I think the thing Weatherill should be campaigning for Nuclear power in this state, now is a best time to do it, power plants are shutting down which if Victoria suffers a heatwave we in SA get our power cut, the only viable way for safe, clean(ish) power generation is Nuclear and SA should be a more than prime candidate for a plant. We live in a extremely stable geologically region and have access to the cutting edge of nuclear technology.

The uninformed masses will forever keep spewing the same blah blah Chernobyl... blah blah Fukushima but reality is Chernobyl was a poorly designed, poorly built, poorly operated plant in what was one of the poorest regions on earth and Fukushima was just sheer bad luck.

The thing is renewable energy at the moment is not sustainable, wind turbines are still at the mercy of mother nature, SA is not suitable for hydroelectric and while huge gains are being made in solar, the price of systems still remain out of reach for majority of people and are still vulnerable to grid power outages.

TL;DR Nuclear is the only viable solution to a state that is facing a crippling power shortages and rising prices.

 

[Grave Danger]

I think the thing Weatherill should be campaigning for Nuclear power in this state, now is a best time to do it, power plants are shutting down which if Victoria suffers a heatwave we in SA get our power cut, the only viable way for safe, clean(ish) power generation is Nuclear and SA should be a more than prime candidate for a plant. We live in a extremely stable geologically region and have access to the cutting edge of nuclear technology.

The uninformed masses will forever keep spewing the same blah blah Chernobyl... blah blah Fukushima but reality is Chernobyl was a poorly designed, poorly built, poorly operated plant in what was one of the poorest regions on earth and Fukushima was just sheer bad luck.

The thing is renewable energy at the moment is not sustainable, wind turbines are still at the mercy of mother nature, SA is not suitable for hydroelectric and while huge gains are being made in solar, the price of systems still remain out of reach for majority of people and are still vulnerable to grid power outages.

TL;DR Nuclear is the only viable solution to a state that is facing a crippling power shortages and rising prices.

"Put it over there"

 

[Doctor Feel]

One thing we can all agree on is that the state sorely needs something, whether that is nuclear or not is debatable but it's difficult to see our options. We can't attract big business here and we experience significant brain drain to the other states, it's a complex issue that will eventually need big or risky decisions to address. Unfortunately for SA, we've got the most vanilla politicians in the land. Total nothingsman with no charisma or power to unify.

 

[Power Raid]

Unfortunately Weatherill has overly politicised the debate and this pushing of the referendum is completely against all common sense. The public need to be informed about the issue so they can understand the risks (or lack thereof) but pushing a referendum only gauges public perception at a given point in time. If the referendum shows a lack of support for the nuclear storage then all that proves is that the government was completely inept at communicating their strategy - nothing more.

Don't get me started with the incompetence of governments..........and yes you're completely right

the time for community engagement is not at concept stage rather it is the planning and approvals. All the government had to do, was say we are open for business and would like to see value add industry built on the back of having 33% of the worlds uranium and specialty metals. Proposals would then filter through and the community would be invited for input on any and every specific project.

That way people can engage with facts rather than ideas.


An interesting fact.......if all your energy needs (including fuel for a car) were to come from uranium, your lifetimes waste would currently be the size of a golf ball. With gen IV reactors, this would be reduced by 1-4% of the size of a golf ball (assuming no further reprocessing was available).

 

[LukeSA]

One thing we can all agree on is that the state sorely needs something, whether that is nuclear or not is debatable but it's difficult to see our options. We can't attract big business here and we experience significant brain drain to the other states, it's a complex issue that will eventually need big or risky decisions to address. Unfortunately for SA, we've got the most vanilla politicians in the land. Total nothingsman with no charisma or power to unify.

Probably a controversial opinion but we need a ruthless Joh Bjelke-Petersen like in this state, don't ask what the public wants, just ****ing do it, progress will never happen if you ask people what they want.

 

[Steve Dore]

Probably a controversial opinion but we need a ruthless Joh Bjelke-Petersen like in this state, don't ask what the public wants, just ******* do it, progress will never happen if you ask people what they want.

LOL. How long did you live in QLD for?

Bjelke-Joe was ruthless if having total disregard for anyone else's opinion is ruthless. He was corrupt and incompetent.

 

[Grave Danger]

LOL. How long did you live in QLD for?

Bjelke-Joe was ruthless if having total disregard for anyone else's opinion is ruthless. He was corrupt and incompetent.

"Well if you, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few legs - then that's the price of doing you know, the price of business in Queensland."




* May not be an actual JB-P quote

 

[Power Raid]

I think the thing Weatherill should be campaigning for Nuclear power in this state, now is a best time to do it, power plants are shutting down which if Victoria suffers a heatwave we in SA get our power cut, the only viable way for safe, clean(ish) power generation is Nuclear and SA should be a more than prime candidate for a plant. We live in a extremely stable geologically region and have access to the cutting edge of nuclear technology.

The uninformed masses will forever keep spewing the same blah blah Chernobyl... blah blah Fukushima but reality is Chernobyl was a poorly designed, poorly built, poorly operated plant in what was one of the poorest regions on earth and Fukushima was just sheer bad luck.

The thing is renewable energy at the moment is not sustainable, wind turbines are still at the mercy of mother nature, SA is not suitable for hydroelectric and while huge gains are being made in solar, the price of systems still remain out of reach for majority of people and are still vulnerable to grid power outages.

TL;DR Nuclear is the only viable solution to a state that is facing a crippling power shortages and rising prices.

I'd prefer Australia waits until Gen IV reactors are ready.

Gen 3.5 is definitely safe; safer than any other power generation source but we only have to wait another 10-15 years for Gen IV. Gen IVs already operate in Russia but efficiency improvements are required to compete with Gen 3.5. My preferred spot for the first reactor would be the energy hungry Pilbara followed by Whyalla.

Desalination and the electric car are the natural big increases for the demand of power. The other huge opportunity is to refine titanium minerals.......australia is one of the largest producers but again ships this off overseas for the value add as our power costs are currently too high. Same said for rare earths.

Imagine SA controlling the world's power, metal refining and having education centres of excellence to support these industries!

 

[Power Girl]

LOL. How long did you live in QLD for?

Bjelke-Joe was ruthless if having total disregard for anyone else's opinion is ruthless. He was corrupt and incompetent.

carn you cooked your goose now you can lie in it.

 

[Forzaport]

Nuclear is dated and being phased out in several developed nations. The future is energy storage systems (e.g. Tesla battery pack).

If SA wasn't so ****ed economically, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

 

[Chrizzt]

I'd prefer Australia waits until Gen IV reactors are ready.

Gen 3.5 is definitely safe; safer than any other power generation source but we only have to wait another 10-15 years for Gen IV. Gen IVs already operate in Russia but efficiency improvements are required to compete with Gen 3.5. My preferred spot for the first reactor would be the energy hungry Pilbara followed by Whyalla.

Desalination and the electric car are the natural big increases for the demand of power. The other huge opportunity is to refine titanium minerals.......australia is one of the largest producers but again ships this off overseas for the value add as our power costs are currently too high. Same said for rare earths.

Imagine SA controlling the world's power, metal refining and having education centres of excellence to support these industries!

Gen 3.5 is the way to go for Australia. Given Australia has no prior commercial nuclear industry it would be unwise to be a first mover in the Gen IV or even SMR scene.

I think nuclear power is a necessity in Australia if we want to be even remotely serious about carbon emissions reductions, however for the near future SA is probably not the best option. Our average daily demand is around 1.5 GW, and a likely NPP for SA would probably have a capacity of 1 GW (e.g. AP1000). That's far too much reliance on one source. Energy diversity absolutely must be maintained. If nuclear was accepted as an option for Australia, then it would only really be feasible in SA in conjunction with guaranteed supply to replace Vic coal stations. In that case we'd still be sending a lot over the Heywood interconnector which is a little risky - it'd probably need to be accompanied by an upgrade to the Murraylink station.

Either way, the nuclear waste repository should go ahead regardless of our nuclear power outlook. It'd be such a typically pissant SA mentality to not go ahead given the enormous benefits that are so badly needed in this state. Additionally, given the large amount of tunneling needed the project would need a tunnel borer. Given that'd be in the state, I'd use some of the funds to then use said equipment to build some subway lines around Adelaide and get rid of the ridiculous amount of poorly-planned railway crossings. The amount of spin-off bonuses that are possible from the project are amazing.

 

[Chrizzt]

Nuclear is dated and being phased out in several developed nations. The future is energy storage systems (e.g. Tesla battery pack).

If SA wasn't so stuffed economically, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Energy storage is nowhere near commercially viable at big enough levels. Even in SA where we have some of the highest electricity prices in the world and in the best case scenarios for solar generation and usage a home still wouldn't make enough savings from a Tesla pack in it's 20 year lifetime to be economically competitive with staying on the grid.

The only type of grid-scale energy storage that is even remotely competitive in this field is pumped hydro, but Australia (and particularly SA) simply don't have the water sources to make use of this option.

Additionally, nuclear isn't being phased out at all. Germany shut off their nuclear grid after Fukushima, but now a huge amount of their power is imported from French nuclear - so they haven't actually cut back their nuclear use at all!

 

[Portia]

Additionally, nuclear isn't being phased out at all. Germany shut off their nuclear grid after Fukushima, but now a huge amount of their power is imported from French nuclear - so they haven't actually cut back their nuclear use at all!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

Germany's renewable energy sector is among the most innovative and successful worldwide. Net-generation from renewable energy sources in the German electricity sector has increased from 6.3% in 2000 to about 30% in 2014.[1][2] For the first time ever, wind, biogas, and solar combined accounted for a larger portion of net electricity production than brown coal in the first half of 2014.[3] On Sunday 15 May 2016 at 14:00 hours, renewables supplied nearly all of domestic electricity demand.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

It would be stupid to make a 100,000 year decision solely on the basis of the next 20.

 

[Dylan8]

Hmm. Yes. What our governments need are dictators imo.

 

[Chrizzt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

Yep, renewables should make up part of developed nations' energy mix - but intermittent sources (wind, solar) should make up no more than 30%. That's why Germany are hitting the wall in that regard, with a large reliance on coal power, and still having to import nearly two-thirds of it's electricity.

It would be stupid to make a 100,000 year decision solely on the basis of the next 20.

I completely agree, and that's why waiting another 20 years for new energy technologies to emerge to help decarbonise the electricity sector is the stupidest thing we can do. We must start acting on this now - replace coal with a sensible mix of renewables and nuclear (with some gas in there for diversity/balance).

 

[Forzaport]

Energy storage is nowhere near commercially viable at big enough levels. Even in SA where we have some of the highest electricity prices in the world and in the best case scenarios for solar generation and usage a home still wouldn't make enough savings from a Tesla pack in it's 20 year lifetime to be economically competitive with staying on the grid.

The only type of grid-scale energy storage that is even remotely competitive in this field is pumped hydro, but Australia (and particularly SA) simply don't have the water sources to make use of this option.

Additionally, nuclear isn't being phased out at all. Germany shut off their nuclear grid after Fukushima, but now a huge amount of their power is imported from French nuclear - so they haven't actually cut back their nuclear use at all!

Batteries are becoming more powerful and cheaper every year. Battery technology is also making giant leaps in terms of how they work and resources required to produce them. Today's Tesla pack will be laughable compared to what will be available in 10 years. Nuclear technology is still largely based on the original design and in 60 years there still isn't a better option than 'put it in a hole for 100,000 years' when it comes to nuclear waste.

Germany is a terrific example of a forward thinking country, their use of French energy is temporary.

Once renewable energy becomes commercially viable and it will, energy generation from non-renewable energy will collapse.

 

[Portia]

Yep, renewables should make up part of developed nations' energy mix - but intermittent sources (wind, solar) should make up no more than 30%. That's why Germany are hitting the wall in that regard, with a large reliance on coal power, and still having to import nearly two-thirds of it's electricity.

Denmark is running at over 50% renewables, and unlike Germany (and Denmark) we have vast tracts of land and wind and sea to generate electricity for our much smaller population to use.

I completely agree, and that's why waiting another 20 years for new energy technologies to emerge to help decarbonise the electricity sector is the stupidest thing we can do. We must start acting on this now - replace coal with a sensible mix of renewables and nuclear (with some gas in there for diversity/balance).

Why would we wait 20 years to push hard for renewable energy? Can you imagine how much we can get done even before new energy technologies arrive?

 

[Power Raid]

Nuclear is dated and being phased out in several developed nations. The future is energy storage systems (e.g. Tesla battery pack).

If SA wasn't so stuffed economically, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

it does seem to be being phased out in developed nations but that is reactors designed in the 1950s and built in the 60s are coming to the end of their useful lives and democracy choses the easiest political route rather than the best route.

Compare with China, who is rolling out the largest fleet of reactors ever, bigger than that of the US's rollout. They have taken the AP-1000 and created the first model-T ford for nuclear power, meaning they will have safe, clean, reliable base load.

The laws of economics won't change, just look at the correlation between energy and wealth. Nations with the most expensive power, or little source of power, will become tomorrow's peasant nations of the world.

I'm all for battery storage, renewables etc especially for homes and remote locations but the key is having the right energy mix. This mix has to support industry, water production and the electric car.


Power reactors under construction - (note add 1-3 years on these dates as they always run behind schedule)

Start † Reactor Type Gross MWe
2016 India, NPCIL Kudankulam 2 PWR 950
2016 India, NPCIL Kakrapar 3 PHWR 640
2016 India, Bhavini Kalpakkam FBR 470
2016 Russia, Rosenergoatom Novovoronezh II-1 PWR 1070
2016 USA, TVA Watts Bar 2 PWR 1180
2016 China, CNNC Sanmen 1 PWR 1250
2016 China, SPI Haiyang 1 PWR 1250
2016 China, CNNC Changjiang 2 PWR 650
2016 China, CNNC Fuqing 3 PWR 1080
2016 China, CGN Fangchenggang 2 PWR 1080
2016 India, NPCIL Rajasthan 7 PHWR 640
2016 Pakistan, PAEC Chashma 3 PWR 300

2017 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 3 PWR 440
2017 Russia, Rosenergoatom Pevek FNPP PWR x 2 70
2017 Russia, Rosenergoatom Leningrad II-1 PWR 1070
2017 UAE, ENEC Barakah 1 PWR 1400
2017 China, CGN Taishan 1 PWR 1700
2017 China, CGN Taishan 2 PWR 1700
2017 China, CNNC Sanmen 2 PWR 1250
2017 China, SPI Haiyang 2 PWR 1250
2017 China, CGN Yangjiang 4 PWR 1080
2017 China, CNNC Fuqing 4 PWR 1080
2017 China, China Huaneng Shidaowan HTR 200
2017 China, CNNC Tianwan 3 PWR 1060
2017 Russia, Rosenergoatom Rostov 4 PWR 1200
2017 Korea, KHNP Shin-Kori 4 PWR 1350
2017 Korea, KHNP Shin-Hanul 1 PWR 1350
2017 India, NPCIL Kakrapar 4 PHWR 640
2017 India, NPCIL Rajasthan 8 PHWR 640
2017 Pakistan, PAEC Chashma 4 PWR 300

2018 Russia, Rosenergoatom Novovoronezh II-2 PWR 1070
2018 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 4 PWR 440
2018 France, EdF Flamanville 3 PWR 1600
2018 Finland, TVO Olkilouto 3 PWR 1720
2018 Korea, KHNP Shin-Hanul 2 PWR 1350
2018 UAE, ENEC Barakah 2 PWR 1400
2018 Brazil Angra 3 PWR 1405
2018 Argentina Carem25 PWR 27
2018 China, CGN Yangjiang 5 PWR 1080
2018 China, CNNC Tianwan 4 PWR 1060

2019 USA, Southern Vogtle 3 PWR 1200
2019 USA, SCEG Summer 2 PWR 1200
2019 UAE, ENEC Barakah 3 PWR 1400
2019 China, CGN Fangchenggang 3 PWR 1150
2019 China, CGN Hongyanhe 5 PWR 1120
2019 China, CGN Yangjiang 6 PWR 1080
2019 China, CNNC Fuqing 5 PWR 1150
2019 Romania, SNN Cernavoda 3 PHWR 720

2020 Russia, Rosenergoatom Leningrad II-2 PWR 1070
2020 China, CGN Hongyanhe 6 PWR 1120
2020 China, CGN Ningde 5 PWR 1150
2020 China, CGN Fangchenggang 4 PWR 1150
2020 China, CNNC Fuqing 6 PWR 1150
2020 UAE, ENEC Barakah 4 PWR 1400
2020 Romania, SNN Cernavoda 4 PHWR 720

Oh and the fuel requirements to fill a core is 3 years operating requirements, plus a fourth year ready to go in the shed and three more yet to be processed. I'd suggest uranium will be the place to be by 2019.

 

[LukeSA]

Once renewable energy becomes commercially viable and it will, energy generation from non-renewable energy will collapse.

What are we supposed to do until that point? SA is staring down the barrel of a massive energy crisis, we cannot sit on our hands* waiting for renewable technology to become viable.

*but we will because #soufstraya

 

[Steve Dore]

carn you cooked your goose now you can lie in it.

just feeding the chooks girly

 

[Power Raid]

Denmark is running at over 50% renewables, and unlike Germany (and Denmark) we have vast tracts of land and wind and sea to generate electricity for our much smaller population to use.

Why would we wait 20 years to push hard for renewable energy? Can you imagine how much we can get done even before new energy technologies arrive?

price is not the only consideration for energy mix but it can't be ignored either.

safety, reliability, base load, affordable, environment and industry all need consideration.

 

[Forzaport]

it does seem to be being phased out in developed nations but that is reactors designed in the 1950s and built in the 60s are coming to the end of their useful lives and democracy choses the easiest political route rather than the best route.

Compare with China, who is rolling out the largest fleet of reactors ever, bigger than that of the US's rollout. They have taken the AP-1000 and created the first model-T ford for nuclear power, meaning they will have safe, clean, reliable base load.

The laws of economics won't change, just look at the correlation between energy and wealth. Nations with the most expensive power, or little source of power, will become tomorrow's peasant nations of the world.

I'm all for battery storage, renewables etc especially for homes and remote locations but the key is having the right energy mix. This mix has to support industry, water production and the electric car.


Power reactors under construction - (note add 1-3 years on these dates as they always run behind schedule)

Start † Reactor Type Gross MWe
2016 India, NPCIL Kudankulam 2 PWR 950
2016 India, NPCIL Kakrapar 3 PHWR 640
2016 India, Bhavini Kalpakkam FBR 470
2016 Russia, Rosenergoatom Novovoronezh II-1 PWR 1070
2016 USA, TVA Watts Bar 2 PWR 1180
2016 China, CNNC Sanmen 1 PWR 1250
2016 China, SPI Haiyang 1 PWR 1250
2016 China, CNNC Changjiang 2 PWR 650
2016 China, CNNC Fuqing 3 PWR 1080
2016 China, CGN Fangchenggang 2 PWR 1080
2016 India, NPCIL Rajasthan 7 PHWR 640
2016 Pakistan, PAEC Chashma 3 PWR 300

2017 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 3 PWR 440
2017 Russia, Rosenergoatom Pevek FNPP PWR x 2 70
2017 Russia, Rosenergoatom Leningrad II-1 PWR 1070
2017 UAE, ENEC Barakah 1 PWR 1400
2017 China, CGN Taishan 1 PWR 1700
2017 China, CGN Taishan 2 PWR 1700
2017 China, CNNC Sanmen 2 PWR 1250
2017 China, SPI Haiyang 2 PWR 1250
2017 China, CGN Yangjiang 4 PWR 1080
2017 China, CNNC Fuqing 4 PWR 1080
2017 China, China Huaneng Shidaowan HTR 200
2017 China, CNNC Tianwan 3 PWR 1060
2017 Russia, Rosenergoatom Rostov 4 PWR 1200
2017 Korea, KHNP Shin-Kori 4 PWR 1350
2017 Korea, KHNP Shin-Hanul 1 PWR 1350
2017 India, NPCIL Kakrapar 4 PHWR 640
2017 India, NPCIL Rajasthan 8 PHWR 640
2017 Pakistan, PAEC Chashma 4 PWR 300

2018 Russia, Rosenergoatom Novovoronezh II-2 PWR 1070
2018 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 4 PWR 440
2018 France, EdF Flamanville 3 PWR 1600
2018 Finland, TVO Olkilouto 3 PWR 1720
2018 Korea, KHNP Shin-Hanul 2 PWR 1350
2018 UAE, ENEC Barakah 2 PWR 1400
2018 Brazil Angra 3 PWR 1405
2018 Argentina Carem25 PWR 27
2018 China, CGN Yangjiang 5 PWR 1080
2018 China, CNNC Tianwan 4 PWR 1060

2019 USA, Southern Vogtle 3 PWR 1200
2019 USA, SCEG Summer 2 PWR 1200
2019 UAE, ENEC Barakah 3 PWR 1400
2019 China, CGN Fangchenggang 3 PWR 1150
2019 China, CGN Hongyanhe 5 PWR 1120
2019 China, CGN Yangjiang 6 PWR 1080
2019 China, CNNC Fuqing 5 PWR 1150
2019 Romania, SNN Cernavoda 3 PHWR 720

2020 Russia, Rosenergoatom Leningrad II-2 PWR 1070
2020 China, CGN Hongyanhe 6 PWR 1120
2020 China, CGN Ningde 5 PWR 1150
2020 China, CGN Fangchenggang 4 PWR 1150
2020 China, CNNC Fuqing 6 PWR 1150
2020 UAE, ENEC Barakah 4 PWR 1400
2020 Romania, SNN Cernavoda 4 PHWR 720

Oh and the fuel requirements to fill a core is 3 years operating requirements, plus a fourth year ready to go in the shed and three more yet to be processed. I'd suggest uranium will be the place to be by 2019.

The appeal of nuclear certainly is strong and I can appreciate why China is building so many reactors. China is also the biggest user of solar in the world and probably coal as well.

 

[Portia]

China and Russia also traditionally don't give a shit about their people.

 

[Forzaport]

What are we supposed to do until that point? SA is staring down the barrel of a massive energy crisis, we cannot sit on our hands* waiting for renewable technology to become viable.

*but we will because #soufstraya

So the argument has already shifted from "lets store nuclear waste" to "lets build a nuclear power plant". We may as well then change the name of the city to Springfield.

My argument is that we should focus on renewable energy as that is the future. The only radioactive waste we should be worrying about is the waste we already generate.