The reason I'm buoyant about this

[Markfs]

Everyone knows that beer is lighter than water.

the higher the alcohol content, the higher the buoyancy...

 

[Carringbush2010]

One term I missed in the op.

'Better than the sum of our parts '

Like the opposition we beat today, they've had their dynasty on the back of this principle.

They've never had THE best list in that time...... yet

If we can be better than the sum of our parts then contending is not nearly a decade away as some believe.

Also anyone that thinks this list right now is bottom 4 QUALITY please put forward your argument.

Would you agree Gone Critical ?

 

[Spuddd]

One term I missed in the op.

'Better than the sum of our parts '

Like the opposition we beat today, they've had their dynasty on the back of this principle.

They've never had THE best list in that time...... yet

If we can be better than the sum of our parts then contending is not nearly a decade away as some believe.

Also anyone that thinks this list right now is bottom 4 QUALITY please put forward your argument.

Would you agree Gone Critical ?

We're probably one of the better bottom 4 teams of recent times.

We have had some very close losses:

• Port by 1
• Brisbane by 1
• Saints by 9*
• Geelong by 10
• Freo by 12

We probably didn't deserve to win the Saints game, but we were up to our eyeballs in the rest, against quality opposition too. We have also knocked off ladder leaders in Melbourne, albeit under emotional circumstances.

I think our trajectory is more like Sydney than a Carlton.

 

[Markfs]

We're probably one of the better bottom 4 teams of recent times.

We have had some very close losses:

• Port by 1
• Brisbane by 1
• Saints by 9*
• Geelong by 10
• Freo by 12

We probably didn't deserve to win the Saints game, but we were up to our eyeballs in the rest, against quality opposition too. We have also knocked off ladder leaders in Melbourne, albeit under emotional circumstances.

I think our trajectory is more like Sydney than a Carlton.

I agree. I think it will be important to kid ourselves for the next couple of years.

 

[Spuddd]

I agree. I think it will be important to kid ourselves for the next couple of years.

I don't think its kidding ourselves.

The fact is we have followed a very similar trajectory thus far (+2 Years), so its not crazy to think its that far away.

Sydney:
2016 GF Loss
2017 Semi Loss
2018 First round loss
2019 8 wins
2020 6 wins
2021 Finals?


Collingwood
2018 GF Loss
2019 Prelim Loss
2020 First round loss
2021 Finish somewhere between 12-16?
2022 Likely miss finals again, similar finish to 2021?
2023 Finals?

I don't think that its unrealistic, we've got a lot of kids and it'll hinge on their ability and growth - but Sydney were able to do this, so why can't we?

 

[Markfs]

I don't think its kidding ourselves.

The fact is we have followed a very similar trajectory thus far (+2 Years), so its not crazy to think its that far away.

Sydney:
2016 GF Loss
2017 Semi Loss
2018 First round loss
2019 8 wins
2020 6 wins
2021 Finals?


Collingwood
2018 GF Loss
2019 Prelim Loss
2020 First round loss
2021 Finish somewhere between 12-16?
2022 Likely miss finals again, similar finish to 2021?
2023 Finals?

I don't think that its unrealistic, we've got a lot of kids and it'll hinge on their ability and growth - but Sydney were able to do this, so why can't we?

It's possible. Many things are possible. It would be helpful to have an atmosphere around the team that supported them but that's not going to happen with the media and collingwood fans doing endless retrospectives on buckley and eddie. Sydney doesn't have to put up with all of that. Sydney have got a group of players that have developed under the radar without the pressures that will be put on the young pie players. sydney has access to its academy. And basically, because one team did a quick turnaround, it doesnt mean another can do it. Do a comparison with hawthorn since they won their 3peat.

But we need positive thinkers...

 

[Pie eyed]

Need to beat Cartoon next week and it's been a great year, given the disaster of losing a Pres a Coach and any hope of finals.

Still managed to beat Carton at least once and One win and one draw one against the current Premiers, but more importantly Ni9thmond.

 

[Black_White]

We should be premiers next year.
I keep reading on here the poor performances of almost every player who has been on the list for more than 3 year has been due to the coach and game plan.

Once we have a new game plan and coach, Sier will be winning the Brownlow, Cox the Coleman, Murphy runner up in the Copeland etc etc.

Make sure you all keep September 2022 free .

You joke, but the second half switch of game plan yesterday shows that a new voice can have a world of difference

 

[Pistol Night]

Taking Treloar, Stevo and Phillips out of a GF team doesn't make it a bottom 4 team. Lack of effort did. When they bring it they're still a reasonable side.

 

[Pistol Night]

You joke, but the second half switch of game plan yesterday shows that a new voice can have a world of difference

Perhaps we need a coach who does impressions

 

[Carringbush2010]

We're probably one of the better bottom 4 teams of recent times.

We have had some very close losses:

• Port by 1
• Brisbane by 1
• Saints by 9*
• Geelong by 10
• Freo by 12

We probably didn't deserve to win the Saints game, but we were up to our eyeballs in the rest, against quality opposition too. We have also knocked off ladder leaders in Melbourne, albeit under emotional circumstances.

I think our trajectory is more like Sydney than a Carlton.

Might be a stretch to say Sydney but that's what I'm hoping for, entirely achievable

 

[TradeDraft]

IF we do things Right in 3 Years we can be Contenders Again

 

[Billys Back]

You joke, but the second half switch of game plan yesterday shows that a new voice can have a world of difference

I actually agreed that we needed a change in coach and assistants. New ideas, a fresh approach etc.
However, I don't believe in constantly using the coach as an excuse for the poor performance of players who are given opportunities. Whether it be Sier or Cox, players need to accept some accountability.

 

[Gone Critical]

One term I missed in the op.

'Better than the sum of our parts '

Like the opposition we beat today, they've had their dynasty on the back of this principle.

They've never had THE best list in that time...... yet

If we can be better than the sum of our parts then contending is not nearly a decade away as some believe.

Also anyone that thinks this list right now is bottom 4 QUALITY please put forward your argument.

Would you agree Gone Critical ?

I would agree almost all the great teams are better than the sum of their parts. Can’t agree with the idea that the Tigers haven’t had the best list over the journey of their 3 flags in 4 years. Had a super list overall, strong in all areas with a group of top end superstars

As to us loved bashing up the Tiges on Sunday. Still I think we are witnessing the end of a super team and they are very beatable in 21. We have some nice kids coming along but I still think our bottom half of the list age wise is one of the weaker in the comp and will take a number of seasons to rebuild.

I have no certainty of my view but trying to be objective I think our list will struggle again next year.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I would agree almost all the great teams are better than the sum of their parts. Can’t agree with the idea that the Tigers haven’t had the best list over the journey of their 3 flags in 4 years. Had a super list overall, strong in all areas with a group of top end superstars

As to us loved bashing up the Tiges on Sunday. Still I think we are witnessing the end of a super team and they are very beatable in 21. We have some nice kids coming along but I still think our bottom half of the list age wise is one of the weaker in the comp and will take a number of seasons to rebuild.

I have no certainty of my view but trying to be objective I think our list will struggle again next year.

There is fair argument that the tuggers have not had the same amount of blue chip talent compared to a wc or giants over that time.

The point that you made for me is that nearly all of the great premier teams have had success not because of list but because of system they've built. In fact all of those teams have a signature (for want of a better word) way of how they play.

System beats talent unless you're so devoid of talent no amount of system will help you, we are certainly not at that devoid of talent. Time will tell where we'll sit on the 'talent ladder' in a year or two.

I'm not bettin all my chips on 'best talent or forget about it' - we wouldn't have won in 2010 if it was talent only, as good as that team was.

 

[Gone Critical]

There is fair argument that the tuggers have not had the same amount of blue chip talent compared to a wc or giants over that time.

The point that you made for me is that nearly all of the great premier teams have had success not because of list but because of system they've built. In fact all of those teams have a signature (for want of a better word) way of how they play.

System beats talent unless you're so devoid of talent no amount of system will help you, we are certainly not at that devoid of talent. Time will tell where we'll sit on the 'talent ladder' in a year or two.

I'm not bettin all my chips on 'best talent or forget about it' - we wouldn't have won in 2010 if it was talent only, as good as that team was.

I don’t agree with your conclusion that the great teams have success not because of their list but because of their system. All the great teams I have seen Richmond 67-74, Carl 68-72, Hawks 76–91, Lions 01-04, Hawks 08-15, Cats 07-11 and Tigers 17-20 were supremely talented units and that was what underpinned their success. Without it no way they become great. But you also add system and club stability to the mix to achieve that

There are some teams I have seen that had the talent but squandered it to a degree by no backing it up with stability and system. Think Collingwood 70-77 as the classic example but all the great teams have talent as their bedrock in my opinion

Probably my concession would be is that you still need that talent but in the modern game, which has become much more tactical and systems balanced the modern treat relies more on the systems aspect that the great teams of the past but talent is still the most important.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I don’t agree with your conclusion that the great teams have success not because of their list but because of their system. All the great teams I have seen Richmond 67-74, Carl 68-72, Hawks 76–91, Lions 01-04, Hawks 08-15, Cats 07-11 and Tigers 17-20 were supremely talented units and that was what underpinned their success. Without it no way they become great. But you also add system and club stability to the mix to achieve that

There are some teams I have seen that had the talent but squandered it to a degree by no backing it up with stability and system. Think Collingwood 70-77 as the classic example but all the great teams have talent as their bedrock in my opinion

Probably my concession would be is that you still need that talent but in the modern game, which has become much more tactical and systems balanced the modern treat relies more on the systems aspect that the great teams of the past but talent is still the most important.

Oops, I've misquoted. Meant to say it's a combination. Doesn't have to be THE best list and rarely is anyway which it seems you'd agree.

Not just list, not just system. However if the club can and I believe it can pull all the combinations together to make that system then we'll know the list is good in a couple of years time.

Better than the sum of its parts

 

[mwhop]

I don't think its kidding ourselves.

The fact is we have followed a very similar trajectory thus far (+2 Years), so its not crazy to think its that far away.

Sydney:
2016 GF Loss
2017 Semi Loss
2018 First round loss
2019 8 wins
2020 6 wins
2021 Finals?


Collingwood
2018 GF Loss
2019 Prelim Loss
2020 First round loss
2021 Finish somewhere between 12-16?
2022 Likely miss finals again, similar finish to 2021?
2023 Finals?

I don't think that its unrealistic, we've got a lot of kids and it'll hinge on their ability and growth - but Sydney were able to do this, so why can't we?

sydney has nailed the draft for a few seasons in a row, plus had two gun FS picks.
not saying we cant do it, but it sure is hard to emulate them from that perspective

 

[Gone Critical]

sydney has nailed the draft for a few seasons in a row, plus had two gun FS picks.
not saying we cant do it, but it sure is hard to emulate them from that perspective

Agree Sydney have a fantastic group of kids and even Mills and Heeney are young. One club getting it right draft wise doesn’t really apply to other teams

 

[Billys Back]

Richmond have a core of fantastic players. It’s that core which makes the other ‘average’ players look and play better.
They have strong leaders on and off the field making players accountable, while supporting and nurturing them.

 

[Robroy22]

All the great teams...."Richmond 67-74, Carl 68-72, Hawks 76–91, Lions 01-04, Hawks 08-15, Cats 07-11 and Tigers 17-20"....and I'll go back to the Melbourne sides of the 50's and add in the Bombers 84-85....all have ONE thing in common. They all have dominant forwards.

Coaches like to say that finals are based on defence...but GF's are won by dominant forwards.

And they all have really strong coaches. Norm Smith, Hafey, Barassi, Sheedy, Kennedy, Jeans, Matthews, Thompson, Clarkson, Hardwick....not too many "huggers" in that mob.

So my secret for success is GET a tough, demanding, uncompromising coach and then fashion your side around TOP CLASS FORWARDS.

 

[Go Woods]

Really becoming buoyant about our list heading into 2022 and beyond , quite anxious about who ends up as coach, but I’m trusting our panel to get the right person.
Bring on 2022...

 

[mwhop]

I don't think its kidding ourselves.

The fact is we have followed a very similar trajectory thus far (+2 Years), so its not crazy to think its that far away.

Sydney:
2016 GF Loss
2017 Semi Loss
2018 First round loss
2019 8 wins
2020 6 wins
2021 Finals?


Collingwood
2018 GF Loss
2019 Prelim Loss
2020 First round loss
2021 Finish somewhere between 12-16?
2022 Likely miss finals again, similar finish to 2021?
2023 Finals?

I don't think that its unrealistic, we've got a lot of kids and it'll hinge on their ability and growth - but Sydney were able to do this, so why can't we?

Sydneys list looking scary good right about now

 

[Scodog10]

Solid bump!

Reading through I did get a chuckle over GC’s comments especially after similar comments were made entering 2018. Some of the stuff from Billys Back should be pinned on the front page

FWIW this thread is a fantastic insight into how much the average Joe overrates talent and underrates the ability to harness talent. There’s no way the previous regime has this group playing this way and 12-5.

 

[domus]

Sydneys list looking scary good right about now

We always match up well against Sydney and we have an excellent record against them. I would suggest we are their bogey side