Things we learnt tonight......

[FuManchu]

Sorry, yes I do.

But why did it happen that way? It's as if someone pricked their confidence balloon. It just hapened so quickly, and there was no recovering.

We have two gears, flat out which is presssure pressure pressure or flat which is no pressure. The game plan whilst in possession doesnt change, its just the intensity of the defensive side that does. They just know they have to keep breaking the lines with us, we havent been able to combat that at any time in MM's tenure.

It is also a lot easier playing us when we predictably do the same things under pressure, push wide, create a vacuum in the middle for them to fill create the turnover and then put the ball back into the middle that they have filled and we have vacated and then break those lines with run and carry of the ball.

And with the high possesion game we play, we are prone to turnovers more than geelong who will run the lines individually and move it forward fast, you dont get the same chance to fill their voids as they do ours, as we are always chasing and trying to get players back into the middle which we have vacated. Less passing the ball by Geelong means less turnovers. But that is also why they are prone to a high pressure game, they do hold onto the ball individually a lot longer, so you need to be able to chase them down which is always going to be difficult or be with them at the contest for the ball which means you have to be better than them at the contest.

 

[Frankie23]

How can anyone believe Toovey is on our best 22???

He was average last night, yes he can stop is opponents to a degree (Gamble still got the better of him) but cmon, he's disposal is below average and there are many better players on our list

 

[Teak_Pies]

Geelong had 23 scoring shots from our turnovers.

 

[Rockford]

Beams looks like a ready made player. Reminded me of Selwood in his first season.

 

[Dylz48]

Im sorry mate but we are a few years away.

It is fine to have that opinion. I just think it is a joke that some people who were tipping us to be in the grand final this year now think we will struggle to make the eight on the basis of one practice match. I really dislike it when anyone jumps on or off the bandwagon so quickly

 

[shawthing09]

I think the most obvious thing we have learnt is good sides don't turn the ball over so we can't afford to get smashed in the clearances. We lost the clearances against both Essendon and Richmong, they just turned it over. Hawthorn and Geelong will not do that and as such we need to improve that area greatly. Fraser will help we certainly need bigger improvement then that (long term both Beams and Sidebottom have great stoppage awareness and will help in that aspect hopefully)

We learnt Beams won't be a NAB cup wonder. Whilst he wasn't prolific in a big game against a rampant opposition he did not look out of place. Without saying he will be as good I see him in the mould of Selwood, he has the smarts to win the ball inside and get outside, the toughness to just win the hard inside ball and is neat and has good vision in possesion.

We learnt Toovey is ahead of Goldsack and based on pre-season form so is Cox although his preformance tonight has raised the questions about how he stands up and preforms in high pressure situations.

We learnt Dawes is not AFL ready. Doesn't make contests in situations he should, gets worked under the ball to easy, is not good enough over head.

Ried can defend and given previous points on Dawes is in our best fowardline without Rocca. So deffinately should [lay most games this year.

Whilst we have a lot of percieved depth we still can't afford to have that many players out.

Anthony whilst beaten by Scarlett fought hard and contested on most situation and will learn a lot from it.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Things we learned............

Beams is in our best 22
Cox is in our best 22 despite a number of clangers last night
Toovey is in our best 22
Reid is close to being in our best 22
O'Brien is close to our most important player along with Fraser
Clarke is a star in the making
Cloke looks like he's in for a good year
Crunch time coming for Anthony, his ground level efforts are poor. Kicking straight isnt enough.
Limited contributions from our stars, Pendlebury Swan Davis and Didak, means there is plenty of room for improvement
Ben Johnson is not in our best 22
Nathan Brown has a long way to go and the reasons for drafting Leigh Brown were evident last night.
We need Rusling.
Hopefully the selection of Dawes and Wellingham is the last time in season 2009 we choose a side on reputation rather than form.
Nick Maxwell has a long way to go before he becomes a decent captain. Crying to the umpires every time he blows the whistle is not leadership.

 

[Blade of Chronic]

can't believe the knee jerk reaction it is the bloody nab cup
I still reckon will make top 4

either way I'd much rather lose like we did last night then to have won and got a player injured like Geelong

We may be able to make top 4. But we still have a few more years until we can win the premiership. And I'm sick of all this "it is the nab cup" bull****. Only sore losers say that when their team has lost. It may just BE the nab cup but both teams played with basically a full team and both were playing like it was a H&A season. So technically the same result would have happened in the H&A season. But now we can see how far we are behind to the likes of Geelong and Hawthorn we can start preparing ourselves to get better and hopefully change the outcome of the next game.

 

[Blade of Chronic]

Sorry, yes I do.

But why did it happen that way? It's as if someone pricked their confidence balloon. It just hapened so quickly, and there was no recovering.

We have a young team. We can't handle the pressure and intensity. I really think Mick Malthouse should work on this somehow because once we are losing by 2-3 goals we just seem to wither away.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

It is fine to have that opinion. I just think it is a joke that some people who were tipping us to be in the grand final this year now think we will struggle to make the eight on the basis of one practice match. I really dislike it when anyone jumps on or off the bandwagon so quickly

Sometimes you have to jump off bandwagons, to replace lost and broken wheels and teams of horses, that sort of thing. We had played weak opposition until last night. We got a reality check, and some of our suspicions about players were all but confirmed. One thing we know is that we need Rocca as a forward line presence with Cloke gathering the ball further down ground.

We also need to try Stanley in the middle. He may be as bad as some say he will be, but who else in the team looks any more likely to get the ball at centre bounces etc? Surely he has more to offer than Cook?

Talking about rabbits in headlights, Cox resembled one last night. His disposal suffers in direct proportion to the intensity of the pressure put on him. Good opposition coaches will curb his influence on the game.

I think next time we will go back to playing Geelong one on one, and the scores will be closer. We saw last night that we are not going to win a shootout with them, because their midfield will smash us?

Incidentally, I am glad that the Wellingham bandwagon never attracted me, because it must be in a sorry state at the moment. He looked very ordinary once again last night.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

And with the high possesion game we play, we are prone to turnovers more than geelong who will run the lines individually and move it forward fast, you dont get the same chance to fill their voids as they do ours, as we are always chasing and trying to get players back into the middle which we have vacated. Less passing the ball by Geelong means less turnovers.

Geelong is a much higher possession side than we are. They were last night, and without looking at the stats, I'm certain that they have been for the last two years in which they've been dominant. Geelong have been breaking possession records over the last two years.

 

[Optimax]

Geelong is a much higher possession side than we are. They were last night, and without looking at the stats, I'm certain that they have been for the last two years in which they've been dominant. Geelong have been breaking possession records over the last two years.

Yep this is the first year of any sort of high possession game plan

 

[FuManchu]

Geelong is a much higher possession side than we are. They were last night, and without looking at the stats, I'm certain that they have been for the last two years in which they've been dominant. Geelong have been breaking possession records over the last two years.

Once Geelong have created the space thru quick transfer of the ball they then allow run and carry from the backline with relatively few possessions into the forward line, whereas we have a lot of possessions around the flanks with chip chip chip for nowhere near the distance travelled.

The weight of numbers of their possessions only tells me that they get a lot more ball up forward a hell of lot more than us and for more effect.

look at how more effective they are for each possession than we are.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

Once Geelong have created the space thru quick transfer of the ball they then allow run and carry from the backline with relatively few possessions into the forward line, whereas we have a lot of possessions around the flanks with chip chip chip for nowhere near the distance travelled.

The weight of numbers of their possessions only tells me that they get a lot more ball up forward a hell of lot more than us and for more effect.

look at how more effective they are for each possession than we are.

You were arguing that they're less prone to turnovers because they play a lower-possession game, and that's wrong. They actually play a much higher-possession game than us-- have done for several years.

EDIT: We've been through this before, but I too wish we'd play the corridor more. However, you simply can't say we turn the ball over more than them because we're a higher-possession side than them. The stats tell you that this isn't the case. The main reason we turned the ball over last night is because they were outworking us. They worked harder than we did when they didn't have the ball. They also blitzed at clearances, which meant the ball was in our half of the ground more often than not, which meant our possessions were under enormous scoreboard and territorial pressure, which was made more difficult to withstand than usual because of the 20m-kick and pass-backwards rules.

 

[FuManchu]

You were arguing that they're less prone to turnovers because they play a lower-possession game, and that's wrong. They actually play a much higher-possession game than us-- have done for several years.

But they are less prone to turnovers once they are in the clear, which is what I have said. Once they are in the clear they do not transfer the ball around anywhere near as much as we are. That is why I said you either have to chase them down or you have to be at the contest for the ball when in dispute. But granted, they do transfer it around quite a lot and quite quickly especially around that HB area to create that free man to run and carry, but after that ......................

EDIT: We've been through this before, but I too wish we'd play the corridor more. However, you simply can't say we turn the ball over more than them because we're higher-possession side than them. The stats tell you that this isn't the case.

The stats dont tell you where and when they do what with the ball. Look at how they carry the ball into the forward area compared to us. Them breaking the lines with run and carry opens up their forward line. Whereas we slowly move it around the flanks with lots of possesion and when we get to this point between HF and the wing, we are forced to find options in a forward area that has been flooded back into. And if we dont hit up a target cleanly, the ball then becomes a contest and its always 50/50 then. So our movement forward is a lot more possession than theirs. We over possess, they dont

 

[Palmer Stoat]

FuManchu, you have qualified the point that I initially disagreed with. That said, I still don't agree with what you're saying: I don't think that the shortest path between defence and attack is necessarily the lowest-possession path in Geelong's case. That is, they run and share the ball all over the ground it seems to me, including through the middle. Given the extraordinary possession totals Geelong rack up, I don't think you can say they flip it around only at HB and are low-possession and direct in all other areas of the ground.

But let's just agree to disagree.

 

[FuManchu]

FuManchu, you have qualified the point that I initially disagreed with. That said, I still don't agree with what you're saying: I don't think that the shortest path between defence and attack is necessarily the lowest-possession path in Geelong's case. That is, they run and share the ball all over the ground it seems to me, including through the middle. Given the extraordinary possession totals Geelong rack up, I don't think you can say they flip it around only at HB and are low-possession and direct in all other areas of the ground.

But let's just agree to disagree.

No probs

but I also like to point out that all their hard work and set up is done thru that HB line. They create such an intensity and maze of possesion that the the opposition have to pour resources in there to counter it. And because its still in your forward area you still think you are half a chance, so you pour even more men into there to create pressure. Its almost a game of keepings off and then when they see they have drawn enough into that area, THEN they say lets get it out of here quick while they are all back here and then they stream forward faster than we can get back. Its a perfect ploy

 

[Vampire013]

Guess what I think we learnt from last night?
We learnt nothing.
It was the Carlton Cup ffs. They have won this competition a few times of late and ended up with the wooden spoon in the real season.
Yes it would have been nice to win, but we lost.
The players looked like they did not care.
Geelong went out like mad men to win last night and we played at half place.
Geelong have bruised egos because of last years Grand Final and wanted to win at all costs. We did not.
If there is a repeat of last night in round 3 at the MCG, then I will agree with a lot of the posts here, but until we start getting flogged in the real season I will consider us a top 4 side with hopes of winning a Premiership.
Geelong won last night and lost Josh Hunt for the season with a knee.

 

[mattys123]

I think we also learnt that a few players careers are now on the line;

1. Ben Johnson; Not getting any younger, skills are still terrible
2. Wellingham; Been there 3-4 years, has to make our best 25 by years end
3. Cook, Cox, Goldsack, Toovey; All around the same age, 2-3 years experience, need to step up or ship out.
4. Presti, Lockyer, O'bree; Due to age more then anything, how much longer can they go on, I'd say Presti's last year, O'bree 1-2 more, same for Tarks.

Obviously giving passes to the real youngsters and also players like Anthony, Dawes and McCarthy who have had some past experience, but have shown enough to be safe at year's end, but we do need improvement our of these type of players.

And I know Cook didnt play last night, but he is in that group for the reason stated.

 

[daicos21]

things we learnt tonite

Collingwood cannot win grand finals

It sure *****ing looks like it.

 

[MarkT]

Over the course of the NAB cup I learnt, in no particular order:

Maxwell isn;t in our best side;
Beams is great find;
Sidebottom will be a player;
We can't ruck our way out of a wet paper bag;
Presti is still a quality FB;
We don't kick well enough across the board;
We will finish 4th.


Actually I didn't learn all that. Some of it was just reinforced.

 

[surfer1]

For what its worth I posted this on Nicks

I really dont care about the result, Being in Sydney I was happy enough to see the 4 games on TV. The water temperature is still 23 degrees the swans are rarely in the news and its mid March ffs the rugby league has only just kicked off.

So were we fair dinkum last night? I do not have a clue. Probably to some extent

Did MM sit on the sidelines to see if there were kinks or deficiences. I bet he did.

Did we like, what we saw in Beams, Steele, Barham, Cox Presti, Jack so early on? I did.

Did we accept that some of our established players are maybe in their final year and will be replaced in the year by younger and already more skillful players. I did

Its a long winter I am looking forward to plenty of warm fuzzy feelings to our young and extremely skillful young list.

 

[Invigoration]

Things we learned............

Beams is in our best 22
Cox is in our best 22 despite a number of clangers last night
Toovey is in our best 22
Reid is close to being in our best 22
O'Brien is close to our most important player along with Fraser
Clarke is a star in the making
Cloke looks like he's in for a good year
Crunch time coming for Anthony, his ground level efforts are poor. Kicking straight isnt enough.
Limited contributions from our stars, Pendlebury Swan Davis and Didak, means there is plenty of room for improvement
Ben Johnson is not in our best 22
Nathan Brown has a long way to go and the reasons for drafting Leigh Brown were evident last night.
We need Rusling.
Hopefully the selection of Dawes and Wellingham is the last time in season 2009 we choose a side on reputation rather than form.
Nick Maxwell has a long way to go before he becomes a decent captain. Crying to the umpires every time he blows the whistle is not leadership.

I agree with pretty much everything here, well said

 

[NT.Thunder]

Ben Johnson - Hmmmm

IMO, we should say thank you for the effort you put in this pre-season and enjoy the VFL. We'll call you if we need you.

He was absolutely woefull last night and some of the younger brigade should be started ahead of him. Couldnt control the pill to save his life.

Lets get Beams or Sidey in before him. Beams is needed for his clearance work and Sidey would be great out of defence with Clarke/Shaw/Thomas at times.

How much TOG did Sidey have last night? Pretty low i think.

Anyway, we played bad and the cats were great. Nothing to worry about. I think Bryan is needed in our best 22. Definately has potential and adds a bit of hardness that Wood doesnt have.

Jack will be right and playing as a third fwd if Rocca ever makes the paddock again will benifit us and him.

Be patient, our time is coming.

 

[HFF]

It's very difficult to deliver an in-depth analysis over one game because we have had a terrific pre-season to date with plenty of positives and finds.

However, main things we learnt last night:

Wellingham is not a tagger. I actually believe we don't need a tagger. We should just go head-to-head with the opposition and back ourselves in to hurt the opposition rather than negate them. This is why, whilst Toovey has been good, I don't see him in our best 22. If we are good enough we will prevail. Sharrod should be used as an attacking midfield option, hunt the ball, not the man.

Ben Johnson is NOT in our best 22. All signs show he has had a terrific pre-season, yet he still makes poor decisions and his footskills are no longer reliable. It's crunch time for Johnno.

Very tough to have a crack at Jack because he had the game's premier defender playing on him, which is a wonderful show of respect towards him. However, I still think Rus is ahead of him. His break-line speed causes so many headaches and he has a great vertical leap with sticky hands. I don't understand how people forget he was the #1 marking option inside 50 in the last month of season 2007. All we need is for his body to stand up.

Travis Cloke has superstar material written all over him. Harry Taylor did not beat him, rather we did. Couldn't get the ball down there to him and when we did, he was vastly outnumbered with opponents crashing into him or his space. He still looked like the most dangerous key forward out on the park IMO and that is scary considering how terrible we were.

We are still a few pre-seasons off in terms of physical development and maturity. Whilst signs are showing we have improved and progressed across the board, we are still a young team. The great man Bucks even said we had so many players out there who hadn't even played 20 games and they were up against AA's, premiership players and brownlow medallists. Geelong's best players are in the core age group 25-30, minus Selwood. Our best players are still babies, with no established stars other than perhaps Didak, Medhurst and Davis.