News "This will kill everyone"

[Bojangles17]

They also got their 2 best players from F/S picks and couple other players as well.

going on the pedigree of scarlett and ablett, neither would have been top 10 picks which further supports my case that after top 3-5 selection 5-10 ordinarliy are no better or worse than say 20-50 absolutley NO GuARANTEES...the last 10 years shows as much...if this hand picked bunch of juniors is so gifted from pick 1-30 right now, how is it they barely won a TAC game and they are yet to break through at VFL, yet they are set to win 6 of the next 10 flags...hahahahahahaahahahahaahahaahahaah

 

[Mr Magic]

Ablett I recall was touted as a top 5 if not for the FS. Hawkins certainly was


Remember he has his old mans blood which is enough for an recruiter to salivate on.

The other father son forgotten in the first premiership is N Ablett.

I am not sure about Scarlett but I am sure those KP prospects would be rated highly

 

[Bojangles17]

Ablett I recall was touted as a top 5 if not for the FS. Hawkins certainly was

not so sure about that..if his name wasnt ablett he would have lobbed 30+..his U18 form wasn't flash...Hawkins touted as top 5 and how is he going, further evidence for my case, TY...10 of him wouldn't be worth 1 J Pod

 

[Mr Magic]

Actually , Hawkins has finally found his role. Versatility between KPF and the Ruck.

I would have thought Hawkins value has appreciated in the last month and with Pod two of the improvements which may get a waning Geelong team with age problems over the premiership line for 2010!

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

 

[CoggaRules]

To me it sounds as if you only read the bold part of my post. You cannot keep an honest face and say that a KPP will have an immediate impact in footy. Look at Vickery, Watts, Gumbleton, Astbury, Butcher (still injured), Ayce Cordy (injured), Riewoldt, Franklin. Aside from Naitanui, who is so presently overrated it's not funny, which of those is having or had an impact in the first 3 years. Granted, everyone said Franklin was a star, and make no mistake, GC will be lucky if they have one of him, and he took 3-4 years to come into it. Barring injury also.

Midfielders nowadays are the best placed to come in and have an impact so, let's theorise that GC comes in with 8 of those 17 youngsters certified GUN midfielders, but without any developed key forward or back prospects, all the KPP roles will be filled by second rate AFL or VFL players. Are you saying then that they will have, in one year, drafted a Lids, Cotchin, Martin, Foley, Trengove, Scully, Morabito, Gysberts/Bastinac? Basically, they'd have to have a miracle single draft, then their KPP's would have to go on steroids, not get injured and not be rested, (even Martin, Scully and Trengove have had a week off). It's a deep draft, but it is not that deep. Let's also pretend they pull no Fiora or JON's.

You could argue we're better positioned because we KNOW we have certified 4-5 guns, at least some of our KPP's are developed or along in their development cycle and we have a team culture, with older players upholding it. You seriously believe a team can have a winning culture where the team leaders and experience holders are VFL players and AFL players who betrayed their clubs?[/B]

you simplistic view of things is quite laughable. In a nutshell the answer to your question is yes. They are professionals, when they get paid top dollar to perform, they perform. You keep talking about it as if we were back in the days when a smoke and a tinny were the done thing at the breaks FFS.
Take a look at Judd for instance. He got shown the money and is repaying them with interest..This shitful talk about winning cultures etc etc is just that, shitful. We have debated forever about it, but the bottom line is you cant have a winning culture when your team is littered with duds that cant win. To make sure you that you give your side every opportunity to get a winning culture you either bite the bullet and rebuild and put it on hold for 3 to 5 years and when you have the cattle, then begin to foster it, or you look at your list and work out what it needs to begin to foster it from the start.

 

[CoggaRules]

GEELONG HAVE ... SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THE DRAFT ... HAD NO HIGHER PICK THAN 7

Read into that what you want ...

It aint a mathematical equation that says ..."Highest picks = best team"

Pathetically simplistic

yes your equation is pathetically simplisitic as well as being pathetically one dimensional. "Highest picks doesnt nessecarily = best team" ...but it sure gives you a ****ing pretty big leg up to = one of the best teams and playing finals and providing a means for people to want to go and watch.
You base your assessment on 1 team that hasnt had less than no 7 pick, discounting the father son rule that dealt them a pretty ****ing good deal. You dont base your assessement on teams like the tankers, the aints, or the bullies that were down and out and now are not because of their high draft picks...forget about us, we are also the 1 team that you can base your assessment on that backs up your argument. That leaves 14 others that prove your theory absolutely WRONG.

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

Ablett I recall was touted as a top 5 if not for the FS. Hawkins certainly was

No he was rated around 25-35. Hawkins was the top 5 pick.

yes your equation is pathetically simplisitic as well as being pathetically one dimensional. "Highest picks doesnt nessecarily = best team" ...but it sure gives you a ****ing pretty big leg up to = one of the best teams and playing finals and providing a means for people to want to go and watch.

Not if they are already furthur behind. I hate how everyone says something along the lines of:

"you're better of finishing last and getting pick 1 than finishing 12th and getting pick 5"

Do people not understand the bottom team has won 3-4 games and is furthur away from being competitive than a team that won 7-10?

The Gold Coast are coming from as far back as you could possibly be.

You dont base your assessement on teams like the tankers, the aints, or the bullies that were down and out and now are not because of their high draft picks...forget about us, we are also the 1 team that you can base your assessment on that backs up your argument. That leaves 14 others that prove your theory absolutely WRONG.

And how many flags have the tankers, saints and dogs won?

Zero. The Dogs choke every year and Carlton still don't have a dominant forward.

 

[santa claws]

I'll believe it when it happens. Carlton have Judd McLean Walker Murphy Gibbs Kreuzer Russell Henderson Hampson(PP) Yarran & Lucas as all former first round/top 20 picks on their list and yet aren't an unbeatable side, in fact a number of those players still struggle. We've got Deledio Tambling Cotchin Martin Reiwoldt Thomson Hislop Polak Vickery Rance(PP) as former first round/top 20 picks and we're a side that sits 1-10. You could got through just about every other side and find they all have upwards of 8 former first rounders on their lists, it doesn't mean a thing though if the talent can't be developed well.

Just because GC are getting all this young talent doesn't mean they are going to be a team of superstars. Have a look at their VFL record with those 12 17 year olds running around, they sit in 12th spot, 1 behind Coburg, with a 1-1-6 record. Now granted they are still kids but unless they can be developed properly I don't believe they are going to come in and play finals within 2 years, maybe in 4-5 years time as they mature.

So lets take a look back at the drafts 5-6 years ago and see how the first 15 in each fared, in 2004 of the first 15 picks only 7 have played 100 games in 6 seasons. In the 05 draft, by the end of this season, there will have been only 6 of the first 15 to have played more than 90-100 games in 5 years. Out of 30 picks thats 12 players with more than 90 games 5-6 years later. Like I said just because the GC are getting a heap of picks it doesn't mean they are guaranteed success, they are still going to have to work pretty damn hard to achieve it.

dont overlook one pertinant point. most clubs have only one first rnd pick every yr..
they will have 5 of the top 7 picks. in ech draft from 04 on it would have netted them deledio, roughhead, griffen, franklin, lewis. 05 murphy thomas ellis pendulbury ryder. o6 gibbs gumbleton hansen boak selwood. 07 kruezer cotchin masten grant palmer.
08 watts natanui hill hurley rich. 09 scully trengove martin etc. that excludes picks 9 11 13 15 and first pick at the start of every rond sheesh id give my right arm just to get some extra second rnd picks. and to get a crack at the best crop of underage kids as well sheesh. throw in the fact they will get their hands on plenty of mature types maybe not stars but good honest footballers who will get well paid and regular games.
mate im a bum but given those sort of concessions if i could not build a top 4 side within 5 yrs id go heave. the thing is when they develop those concessions they will be much more than top 4 or should be.

 

[Mr Magic]

And how many flags have the tankers, saints and dogs won?

The past three!!

Hawthorn.


Based on N Davis effort for Swans Geelong snatched defeat from from jaws of victory and underperformed for another year before prodding Johnson and telling Ablett he wasnt fit.

So three cover it so far!!

 

[Bruce Monteath]

No he was rated around 25-35. Hawkins was the top 5 pick.



Not if they are already furthur behind. I hate how everyone says something along the lines of:

"you're better of finishing last and getting pick 1 than finishing 12th and getting pick 5"

Do people not understand the bottom team has won 3-4 games and is furthur away from being competitive than a team that won 7-10?

The Gold Coast are coming from as far back as you could possibly be.



And how many flags have the tankers, saints and dogs won?

Zero. The Dogs choke every year and Carlton still don't have a dominant forward.

Not sure I agree with this - it depends if the team is in development stage on the way up (maybe us) as opposed to holding on top aged players in the hope of having one last tilt and on the way down (maybe Adelaide).

 

[TOOs_Finest]

I think the concessions aim to fast track a Geelong or Brisbane style dominance over a 3 or 4 year period at some point in the near to medium future of these clubs, but I don't see it happening off the bat (ie. not within in the first 5 years).

People continue to underestimate how much of a role bonding and leadership plays in a team's success. And this is what makes recruiting established players a double edged sword for these new clubs. The established players they recruit will be players who are already unsettled at their clubs, or who are happy to chase some money. It just so happens, and not by coincidence, that these players are not the types capable of providing the bonding and leadership required to lift a team of good players to the next level. Ablett is now seemingly more likely to go than stay, but despite being probably the best individual player in the league, I think most people, albeit from the outside, would rate the likes of Ling, Bartel and Corey as better leaders and comrades. Personally, I cannot see Ablett moving to the GC, and being an inspirational captain, helping to fast-track the juniors.

On the flip side, the players whom the new clubs have rightly targeted, and would prefer to recruit, who have been identified as having good leadership qualities (Cotchin, Gibbs, Selwood, etc) have (again not coincidentally) rejected their offers and re-signed with their current clubs.

But as many have mentioned, you cannot deny that putting so many highly-rated young players into one environment will at some point form the crux of a potentially pretty powerful unit. But it will take time for them to reveal and develop the leaders who will take them that next step.

 

[santa claws]

No he was rated around 25-35. Hawkins was the top 5 pick.



Not if they are already furthur behind. I hate how everyone says something along the lines of:

"you're better of finishing last and getting pick 1 than finishing 12th and getting pick 5"

Do people not understand the bottom team has won 3-4 games and is furthur away from being competitive than a team that won 7-10?

The Gold Coast are coming from as far back as you could possibly be.



And how many flags have the tankers, saints and dogs won?

Zero. The Dogs choke every year and Carlton still don't have a dominant forward.

1/ interesting that people ignore the fact that since the inception of the draft geelong have always had a very strong core group to build around. there has never been a need for them to actually bottom out because of this.
interesting also is the fact they looked genuine premiership material in 04 and 05 yet had a poor yr in 06 that netted them arguably the missing piece of the premiership puzzle in selwood.

2/ in a way you are right that there is some yrs not a lot of difference between pick 1 and 5 but the real key is the following yr when a pp comes into play. if we had won only 4 games we would have had a player like bastinac and this yr we would be looking at picks 4 and 6. instead we are going to have this debate rage another season when we are in exactly the same position as we are now.

3/ in recent times we have finished 16 12 9 16 9 15. and even when finishing 9th we could not have been further away from actually being competetive than when we won two spoons. people need to realise the win loss column means jack when starting from scratch.

4/ finally if the dogs and saints are tankers as you imply it has certainly made them top 4 contenders regular finalists and a chance. its where we need to get before we can even contemplate a premiership.

hmm dont tank and finish as high as 9th or tank and at least get in the ball park.
i suppose we dont need to change to much after all failure to maximise the draft since its inception is what we have been good at. heckk its been so good for us we have played two finals series with ordinary lists.

graham richmond made us a power because he realised you did everything you could with the system you had to work with, even cheat or bend the rules if need be. the draft is no different its about time all supporters got their heads around this.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

1/ interesting that people ignore the fact that since the inception of the draft geelong have always had a very strong core group to build around. there has never been a need for them to actually bottom out because of this.
interesting also is the fact they looked genuine premiership material in 04 and 05 yet had a poor yr in 06 that netted them arguably the missing piece of the premiership puzzle in selwood.


4/ finally if the dogs and saints are tankers as you imply it has certainly made them top 4 contenders regular finalists and a chance. its where we need to get before we can even contemplate a premiership.

hmm dont tank and finish as high as 9th or tank and at least get in the ball park.

Santa, to read points 1 and 4 in isolation makes me scratch my head a little.

If I am reading correctly, you are providing Geelong as a good example of a club who hasn't needed access to high draft picks to collect 2 flags in a period of dominance of at least 3 years.

On the other hand, you are using St. Kilda and Bulldogs as examples of teams who have tanked to, so far, become solid top four teams for a similar period, without a premiership between them, yet at least. (Btw, did the Bulldogs tank? I can't actually remember)

Nothing certain, but just maybe there is something in this whole "winning culture" argument thing

So, the question is, should we strive to be the next Geelong, or the next St Kilda?

 

[CoggaRules]

No he was rated around 25-35. Hawkins was the top 5 pick.



Not if they are already furthur behind. I hate how everyone says something along the lines of:

"you're better of finishing last and getting pick 1 than finishing 12th and getting pick 5"

Do people not understand the bottom team has won 3-4 games and is furthur away from being competitive than a team that won 7-10?

The Gold Coast are coming from as far back as you could possibly be.



And how many flags have the tankers, saints and dogs won?

Zero. The Dogs choke every year and Carlton still don't have a dominant forward.

dude you need to wake up, if you indeed know you are actually asleep.

So by your calculations, 5 comes before 1 yeah, as such you are no better off with pick 1 than pick 5? Ok...try this on for size. We got cotch at pick? and we would have been no better off if we didnt have pick 2 and had pick 5 yes? Same goes with Dustin Martin at pick 3...yes?

More importantly, simpletons like yourself havent quite got with the program yet..if you ever will. It isnt about winning flags dude, its all about being in the group that play in September year in year out for a decade.

 

[CoggaRules]

Santa, to read points 1 and 4 in isolation makes me scratch my head a little.

If I am reading correctly, you are providing Geelong as a good example of a club who hasn't needed access to high draft picks to collect 2 flags in a period of dominance of at least 3 years.

On the other hand, you are using St. Kilda and Bulldogs as examples of teams who have tanked to, so far, become solid top four teams for a similar period, without a premiership between them, yet at least. (Btw, did the Bulldogs tank? I can't actually remember)

Nothing certain, but just maybe there is something in this whole "winning culture" argument thing

So, the question is, should we strive to be the next Geelong, or the next St Kilda?

Let me be of assistance dude. I will take a wild guess and suggest that what santa is trying to say is, what is better, spewing that we fell at the last hurdle, in terms of losing a prelim, or being beaten on the big day, or spewing that once again we are part of the rubbish that wallows in the mire of mediocrity -> useless. What you need to take into account is when we are spewing we lost in a prelim or lost in the big one, that equates to a ****ing pretty big improvement on the win column for that year, which is light years ahead of what we have and have had.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Let me be of assistance dude. I will take a wild guess and suggest that what santa is trying to say is, what is better, spewing that we fell at the last hurdle, in terms of losing a prelim, or being beaten on the big day, or spewing that once again we are part of the rubbish that wallows in the mire of mediocrity -> useless. What you need to take into account is when we are spewing we lost in a prelim or lost in the bog one, that equates to a ****ing pretty big improvement on the win column for that year, which is light years ahead of what we have and have had.

Gee, almost makes me wonder why we aren't sitting around talking about all of our preliminary final performances over the past decade when you consider how many first round draft picks we have had.

Just maybe the path out of this "mire of mediocrity" has a lot more to do with things other than the number pinned up next to the name of the draft picks you select

ps: my actual thoughts on this topic can be seen in post #62 in this thread

 

[CoggaRules]

Gee, almost makes me wonder why we aren't sitting around talking about all of our preliminary final performances over the past decade when you consider how many first round draft picks we have had.

Just maybe the path out of this "mire of mediocrity" has a lot more to do with things other than the number pinned up next to the name of the draft picks you select

ps: my actual thoughts on this topic can be seen in post #62 in this thread

another post dripping with lameness...have you been on the planet in the last decade? If you have please explain how many of our recruiters in that time are still in the job...then when you have explained that, how many of those recruiters that got shown the door, were swept upon by other teams, since they were that good at spotting talent. The mire of mediocrity has everything to do with one point when it comes to the tigers, the inferiority complex...to worried about what the media perceived us as , i.e. eat their own, to call a spade a spade and sack duds, players, coaches, recruiters etc...since to a man, barring a couple, they all got jobs that had nothing to do with footy in the sense of footy depts..after they were escorted off the premises.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

another post dripping with lameness...have you been on the planet in the last decade? If you have please explain how many of our recruiters in that time are still in the job...then when you have explained that, how many of those recruiters that got shown the door, were swept upon by other teams, since they were that good at spotting talent. The mire of mediocrity has everything to do with one point when it comes to the tigers, the inferiority complex...to worried about what the media perceived us as , i.e. eat their own, to call a spade a spade and sack duds, players, coaches, recruiters etc...since to a man, barring a couple, they all got jobs that had nothing to do with footy in the sense of footy depts..after they were escorted off the premises.

Lol, so you agree with my "dripping with lameness" post then... funny stuff

 

[CoggaRules]

Lol, so you agree with my "dripping with lameness" post then... funny stuff

naaa dude...you are living in lala land. You see this is what you dont and will never get. You can have the numero uno supremo recruiter in your midst. He would most likely find those gems they talk about from later draft picks that back up that argument on not needing high draft picks. But if you have that numero uno supremo in your midst and have high draft picks, then you dont get the situation where we have tigerheads excusing a number 4 pick, with the well used excuse that if he had been 40 then he wouldnt have been critisised. He would have been 40 and 4 would have been at CHF as we speak and you and many others would be thinking differently on the subject of do high draft picks make you competitive..

 

[David3030]

I have been saying thisa for the past 18 months, I even started a thread on the AFL board about it. I started off saying they were getting a minimum 15 first round draft picks, and in what appears to be a deep draft pool year and got told well they cannot be left to languish at the bottom for the first few years.

My answer to thar is why the **** not?

I further stated they were being gifted at least 3 premierships in their first 7 years only to be told that they have to be made competitive. No they don't !!!

I'm glad someonr has finally seen the light. Pity the drop kicks who came up with the Gold Coast and GWS draft concessions actually had no foresight about what they were doing. However, I suspect their heads are still buried deep in the sand. Its time the AFL allowed people who know and love the game to run it rather than drop kicks with little or no intelligence.

 

[CoggaRules]

I have been saying thisa for the past 18 months, I even started a thread on the AFL board about it. I started off saying they were getting a minimum 15 first round draft picks, and in what appears to be a deep draft pool year and got told well they cannot be left to languish at the bottom for the first few years.

My answer to thar is why the **** not?

I further stated they were being gifted at least 3 premierships in their first 7 years only to be told that they have to be made competitive. No they don't !!!

I'm glad someonr has finally seen the light. Pity the drop kicks who came up with the Gold Coast and GWS draft concessions actually had no foresight about what they were doing. However, I suspect their heads are still buried deep in the sand. Its time the AFL allowed people who know and love the game to run it rather than drop kicks with little or no intelligence.

dude, believe me, from what you are suggesting and asking and having problems with, you are the biggest drop kick to walk the planet.
So in your book, those dumb arses are gifting the new franchises flags, and you say no they dont. i.e. they should struggle for a decade or 2 just like the rest did, for 50 years or more back in the days when they pulled the carts with horsed yeah? Give you the tip, i know most definetely one head thats buried in more than sand dude and that one is the one that suggests what you do.
Hell they should be given the swans treatement. They took 85 years to win a flag...its a recipe for success when pouring money into new franchises...fool.

 

[_RT_]

dont overlook one pertinant point. most clubs have only one first rnd pick every yr..
they will have 5 of the top 7 picks. in ech draft from 04 on it would have netted them deledio, roughhead, griffen, franklin, lewis. 05 murphy thomas ellis pendulbury ryder. o6 gibbs gumbleton hansen boak selwood. 07 kruezer cotchin masten grant palmer.
08 watts natanui hill hurley rich. 09 scully trengove martin etc. that excludes picks 9 11 13 15 and first pick at the start of every rond sheesh id give my right arm just to get some extra second rnd picks. and to get a crack at the best crop of underage kids as well sheesh. throw in the fact they will get their hands on plenty of mature types maybe not stars but good honest footballers who will get well paid and regular games.
mate im a bum but given those sort of concessions if i could not build a top 4 side within 5 yrs id go heave. the thing is when they develop those concessions they will be much more than top 4 or should be.

Who says that every pick they take will turn out to be like those players you named?

There is a possibility that some of their picks could end up being spuds like first round picks from 2000: Livingston, McDougall, Smith, Angwin, Sporn & Davies or 2001 failed first rounders like Sampi, Molan, Cole, Watson, Brooks, Harvey & Elstone or 2002 failures like Walsh Brennan Laycock Schulz Bell & Smith or 2003 spuds like Tenace Trotter Dunn Watts Willoughby Morrison & Spaanderman. From the first round of 04 Meesen Egan Thomson Meyer Dunn Pattison Wood and Willitts could all be considered failures.

From those 5 drafts there were 99 picks in the first round including PP, 34 of those picked have failed to deliver. If you wanted to get technical you could add names like Pettifer, McMahon, Polak, the Clarke brothers, Power & Bradley, as players who managed to play around 100 games but are widely regarded as spuds who were/are lucky to have got that far.

The point is having a swag of draft picks means sweet FA if you can't develop them right. Take a look at our own club as a perfect example of what I'm talking about, since 2005 we've had players taken with picks 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 8, 8, 9, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16 & 18 (15 first rounders/PP) on our list and yet we've been in contention for the spoon most years. If GC/GWS are guaranteed success because they have a swag of first round picks then why aren't we up there battling for the flag?

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

dude you need to wake up, if you indeed know you are actually asleep.

So by your calculations, 5 comes before 1 yeah, as such you are no better off with pick 1 than pick 5? Ok...try this on for size. We got cotch at pick? and we would have been no better off if we didnt have pick 2 and had pick 5 yes? Same goes with Dustin Martin at pick 3...yes?

Which would you rather:

Option A) Your team wins 4 games for the year and you add picks 1,17,33 and 49.

Option B) Your team wins 8 games and adds pick 5,22,38 and 54.

Those picks for option A are (theoretically) going to improve your team by more than those in option B, but not by much. And you're allready a long way behind.

And if you **** those picks up (or draft lesser players than team B) you are a long way behind and have no picks.

More importantly, simpletons like yourself havent quite got with the program yet..if you ever will. It isnt about winning flags dude, its all about being in the group that play in September year in year out for a decade.

I see now. We should aspire to be like Adelaide, St. Kilda and the Bulldogs instead of Geelong or the Brisbane Lions.

 

[coke_zero]

I see now. We should aspire to be like Adelaide, St. Kilda and the Bulldogs instead of Geelong or the Brisbane Lions.

You have to make the finals before you can actually try to get to a flag. once we get 2-3 years of finals we should then be competing for the premiership. No one said we should be aiming for anything less than a premiership. But there are steps you need to do before it.