Time For A Rookie List Rethink

[Seedsfan]

so sier was local because he was from bulleen, i think....

No he was drafted from the Knights and school footy.

 

[Markfs]

No he was drafted from the Knights and school footy.

well his situation wouldnt have been helped by how we get our rookies....either via state leagues or international

his situation seems to be more about derek hine's ability to pick players from good families.....

 

[legendstatus]

We’ve missed a few haven’t we ( trades )

whether they were getable, home sick, delisted, not worth it or no bargaining power, reckon we have lost the mystic of the 70’s & 80’s where everyone wanted to play for us!

Lynch
May
Lever
Hibbard
Tomlinson
Langdon
Hill
Riccardi
Impey
O’Meara
Cameron
Stengle
Shiel
Smith
Wright
Georgiades
Aliir
Hewett
Williams
Saad
Martin
Cerra
Prestia
Crouch
Hill
Howard
Casboult
Kelly
Yeo
McCartin
Reid





On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Markfs]

Money

 

[Go Woods]

Wrighty did a wonderful job at the Hawks as list manager/recruitment, are we waisting his talents? Should we be head hunting a new footy manager and have Wrighty completely immersed as head of list management/recruitment?
Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Horaceg]

Wrighty did a wonderful job at the Hawks as list manager/recruitment, are we waisting his talents? Should we be head hunting a new footy manager and have Wrighty completely immersed as head of list management/recruitment?
Just my 2 cents worth.

Is that what GW would want, not too sure?

 

[Go Woods]

Is that what GW would want, not too sure?

Yeah fair call, he is GM of footy, but we need his skill set & experience in list management....Or we head hunt the best list manager and improve our talent scouting resources...This is where flags are won imo.

 

[Markfs]

Yeah fair call, he is GM of footy, but we need his skill set & experience in list management....Or we head hunt the best list manager and improve our talent scouting resources...This is where flags are won imo.

I think existing players will come to the pies if we have the salary cap to pay them.

Picking the right players in the draft is another matter...and that is recruitment, not list management. I dont think we're even giving opportunities for the right players through the draft.

But in the end, wright took the job with the Pies to run the show, not to take orders from someone so he can return to something that he's done for 20 years.

Didnt we try that when neil balme was with us? A recipe for someone leaving, i think.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

So we should recruit players who are ineligible for the Cat B list instead of players who are eligible?

 

[Markfs]

So we should recruit players who are ineligible for the Cat B list instead of players who are eligible?

my thoughts are if they're in melbourne and they qualify and they're keen, then put a plan in place but i wouldnt be putting much resources into it. How much money and time was used up on the irish outside their salaries? The salary outside of the salary cap is only a component of the investment. I dont see it as a free hit.

Do you like the cat b option?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

my thoughts are if they're in melbourne and they qualify and they're keen, then put a plan in place but i wouldnt be putting much resources into it. How much money and time was used up on the irish outside their salaries? The salary outside of the salary cap is only a component of the investment. I dont see it as a free hit.

Do you like the cat b option?

We have the money to be able to afford the cat B option. It’s outside the salary cap and if the club can afford it, why not. I think we should concentrate on Australian players from other sports rather than those from overseas just because they might take less time to get up to scratch…especially so during the pandemic years….but never say never. But players like Dean Mihocek who were overlooked from the vfl are never going to be cat B eligible so I really don’t understand your point.

The Cat B list It’s only a minor part of our list management strategy anyway.

Your post thread is very misleading. I thought you were recommending something relevant to how we manage the main list and what types of players etc.

 

[Markfs]

We have the money to be able to afford the cat B option. It’s outside the salary cap and if the club can afford it, why not. I think we should concentrate on Australian players from other sports rather than those from overseas just because they might take less time to get up to scratch…especially so during the pandemic years….but never say never. But players like Dean Mihocek who were overlooked from the vfl are never going to be cat B eligible so I really don’t understand your point.

The Cat B list It’s only a minor part of our list management strategy anyway.

Your post thread is very misleading. I thought you were recommending something relevant to how we manage the main list and what types of players etc.

well i'm sorry to mislead you. Maybe you can start a thread with a better title.

I agree that cat b's isnt a focus although we were relying on cat b's from ireland to provide key position players... and that option is no longer an option.

My point about the salary cap and the fact that cat b's were outside that cap, is that a lot of time and money is spent on coaching and supporting the cat b player. I dont see that small saving on the salary as being worth it. I would prefer that we concentrate on lower league players. If we were to get cat b's onto the list, then make them australian, as you suggest. However, I still dont think it's worth wasting time on non-footy people.

if you like, we could change this to a word association thread.....i'll go first

cap

 

[Bianconeri]

That said I think our balance has been off and we invested too heavily in tall Cat B types (Cox, Keane, Tohill, Wilson, Madgen) in an effort to fix our key position hole and it's created a big list issue.

The other issue is other than Cox the rest aren’t really key position players, they’re just tall. We need to pick blokes with the frame to play key position not any random tall athletic bloke.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Also would prefer we stop picking vanilla late picks in their draft year with little prospects of making it when you can get the same player from a state league who's further along in their development.

But don’t many of us punters also label many our state league pickups as “vanilla”? …

… John Noble, Kyle Martin, Sam Dwyer just OTTOMH.

 

[Aussie pie]

Just my opinion from what I’ve seen over the past decade. I keep reading about how some people think Hine is a great recruiter, I’d say not. Now whether it’s him or a list management issue I’m not sure but honestly he’s had so many misses it’s not funny. I look at our list atm and the only A graders drafted since Pendles and sidey are DeGoey and Moore. (Too early for Nick) But both Moore and Nick were F/s so no real skill in recruiting.
We have some good players but seriously our drafting and recruiting has been horrible.
I’m sure some will disagree, fair enough but I go back to my original point re Dekka, he’s honestly not that great at the job which is extremely difficult one to do.

 

[peter9789]

Just my opinion from what I’ve seen over the past decade. I keep reading about how some people think Hine is a great recruiter, I’d say not. Now whether it’s him or a list management issue I’m not sure but honestly he’s had so many misses it’s not funny. I look at our list atm and the only A graders drafted since Pendles and sidey are DeGoey and Moore. (Too early for Nick) But both Moore and Nick were F/s so no real skill in recruiting.
We have some good players but seriously our drafting and recruiting has been horrible.
I’m sure some will disagree, fair enough but I go back to my original point re Dekka, he’s honestly not that great at the job which is extremely difficult one to do.

I don't think you can merely separate recruitment from list management. Its fair to say Hine like all recruiters has enjoyed some hits (Grundy 18, DeGoey 5, Maynard 30, Langdon 65 to mention a few), and misses (Scharenberg 6, Freeman 10, and Stephenson 6).

Our list management over the past 10 years to me has been the major issue holding the club back, and we don't know, as outsiders how much influence this has had over the recruitment approach. For example Stephenson being picked ahead of Naughton or Noah Balta who were obviously better list fits being key position players.

I'm not defending Hine for a minute as I've not been happy with many of his picks but trading away first round draft picks (Treloar, Beams et al) has lessened the access to the high end talent in some of the draft pools.

Its a tough job and much easier in hindsight.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Just my opinion from what I’ve seen over the past decade. I keep reading about how some people think Hine is a great recruiter, I’d say not. Now whether it’s him or a list management issue I’m not sure but honestly he’s had so many misses it’s not funny. I look at our list atm and the only A graders drafted since Pendles and sidey are DeGoey and Moore. (Too early for Nick) But both Moore and Nick were F/s so no real skill in recruiting.
We have some good players but seriously our drafting and recruiting has been horrible.
I’m sure some will disagree, fair enough but I go back to my original point re Dekka, he’s honestly not that great at the job which is extremely difficult one to do.

Harsh

A large portion of our list was traded in and we’re not judging Hine on any of those.

Some highish draft picks turned out OK as expected (DeGoey, Grundy)

Some highish draft picks were a bust for reasons that can’t reasonably be pinned on Hine (Stephenson … he won the R/S!!!, Scharenberg and Freeman joined the club at a time our injury prevention was poor)

And there were a few highish draft picks that were a bust, but not that many (Kennedy, Broomhead, any others?)

Yeah, there were busts like Ben Crocker, but we got him with pick 65, so what did we expect? And some of those late picks / rookie picks were a win (Maynard, Mihocek)

Of our current list …

• 8 were traded in
• 3 came in through Cat B (international / alt pathway - a free punt)
• 8 were either Father / Son or academy
• 24 were from the draft, of which 16 of those were from the last 3 drafts and so the jury is still out on them.

 

[stui magpie]

Cat B rookies are a free hit, a speculative development pick.

Players picked in the first 10 of the Rookie draft average 42 career games. It's all in the picking.

People mature at different rates, a kid that may not have been considered draftable at 18, if they put their head down and go to a next tier down league can be very draftable in their early 20's instead.

The Cat B's are much more a lottery, looking at a local who played AFL as a junior then went to another sport for a few years can be worth a punt as can be bringing in players from overseas. Several clubs have had good success with Irish imports, yeah the failures outweigh the successes but that also applies in the national draft.

 

[Go Woods]

I think existing players will come to the pies if we have the salary cap to pay them.

Picking the right players in the draft is another matter...and that is recruitment, not list management. I dont think we're even giving opportunities for the right players through the draft.

But in the end, wright took the job with the Pies to run the show, not to take orders from someone so he can return to something that he's done for 20 years.

Didnt we try that when neil balme was with us? A recipe for someone leaving, i think.

I agree that Wright came across to us as the next step in his career. So he ain’t going to step backwards but we need his caliber type to run our recruiting department.
Imo we haven’t addressed this properly, we need a top shelf recruiting manager, the same said for a list manager.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

well i'm sorry to mislead you. Maybe you can start a thread with a better title.

I agree that cat b's isnt a focus although we were relying on cat b's from ireland to provide key position players... and that option is no longer an option.

My point about the salary cap and the fact that cat b's were outside that cap, is that a lot of time and money is spent on coaching and supporting the cat b player. I dont see that small saving on the salary as being worth it. I would prefer that we concentrate on lower league players. If we were to get cat b's onto the list, then make them australian, as you suggest. However, I still dont think it's worth wasting time on non-footy people.

if you like, we could change this to a word association thread.....i'll go first

cap

No more foreign Cat B players might have been a better title.

I really don’t see the money concerns as being remotely relevant. If the club is making enough to pay for cat be development then why not. It only takes the next Taigh Keneally to land on our doorstep to make it a success.

Personally I think we’d have more success with local players but the global pool of potential multitalented sportsmen is very large and still worth a punt. It’s low risk high reward. Even Mason Cox almost won us a flag!!!

 

[sr36]

The other issue is other than Cox the rest aren’t really key position players, they’re just tall. We need to pick blokes with the frame to play key position not any random tall athletic bloke.

I think Dekka got it wrong drafting tall cat b players. KPP are all about reading the ball flight and contesting - which can't be seen in most other sports . Go athletic running players from other sports- new blokes pick up the skills well and the running role requirements transfer much better than KPP.

 

[Markfs]

fair enough

 

[Bianconeri]

But don’t many of us punters also label many our state league pickups as “vanilla”? …

… John Noble, Kyle Martin, Sam Dwyer just OTTOMH.

Martin didn’t really work out, but Noble is best 25 and Dwyer had a solid couple of years.

Take Bianco for example, he’s essentially a less AFL ready Sam Dwyer.

 

[Markfs]

it doesnt help to use our past choices of state players as examples of what we could get from the lower leagues.

Hine's choices have been crap in that area.

 

[Markfs]

I think Dekka got it wrong drafting tall cat b players. KPP are all about reading the ball flight and contesting - which can't be seen in most other sports . Go athletic running players from other sports- new blokes pick up the skills well and the running role requirements transfer much better tann KPP.

The cat b option gave him the option of projecting his grandiose expectations about what the irish would deliver.... aside from the father sons has he ever recruited a key position player that looked even a tiny bit dynamic? When he gushes about someone over 192cm like nathan murphy, they end up being lame. I'd love to see him moved along...