Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[_Cerberus_]

Win the stoppages, get a run on. No Plan B. Refuse to tag. Leaky defence.

Pretty simples for a coach.

Can anyone on our team actually tag though? Need a level of toughness, aggression, and athleticism. Where most of our players get bumped off their feet in contests too easily, crumble under pressure than apply it, and are not exactly quick. We probably don't tag, because we have no one. Be honest, who on our team can play a defensive role on say, Petracca at center bounces? That are capable of winning the ball as well if needed? Feel the cupboard is dead bare there.

 

[_Cerberus_]

Any news on possible retirements? Felt we might have had a couple given its our last home game of the year, and the chance for a proper farewell from the fans. Unless the likes of Crozier plan to wait for post season discussions / play on via a trade. Or the likes of Bruce and Hannan plan to try play on in 2025, despite having their entire 2024 wiped clean and being 33 and 31 come then.

 

[weltschmerz]

Can anyone on our team actually tag though? Need a level of toughness, aggression, and athleticism. Where most of our players get bumped off their feet in contests too easily, crumble under pressure than apply it, and are not exactly quick. We probably don't tag, because we have no one. Be honest, who on our team can play a defensive role on say, Petracca at center bounces? That are capable of winning the ball as well if needed? Feel the cupboard is dead bare there.

West might have what it takes.

 

[VitalDread]

Any news on possible retirements? Felt we might have had a couple given its our last home game of the year, and the chance for a proper farewell from the fans. Unless the likes of Crozier plan to wait for post season discussions / play on via a trade. Or the likes of Bruce and Hannan plan to try play on in 2025, despite having their entire 2024 wiped clean and being 33 and 31 come then.

Dogs want Doc to play another year but hes weighing up his future

 

[JTCWBFC]

Any news on possible retirements? Felt we might have had a couple given its our last home game of the year, and the chance for a proper farewell from the fans. Unless the likes of Crozier plan to wait for post season discussions / play on via a trade. Or the likes of Bruce and Hannan plan to try play on in 2025, despite having their entire 2024 wiped clean and being 33 and 31 come then.

Clubs full on amateur hour right now. They'll probably forget.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Finally we’ve found our intercepting defender

Did you mean buffet defeater

 

[LittleG]

I’ve been advocating for it for years lol. Always rated him as an elite player, but it’s been obvious for a while that he’s too one paced and too lacking in defensive game to be worthwhile continuing with in my opinion. Totally with you on this one

Thought I would ask a recruiter from another vic team. Dons interested from what he understands, although he isn’t from the Dons. Unsure of value, dons usually overpay.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Macrae was one of the best midfielders in the game in 2021.

I've never argued otherwise. He's clearly been a fantastic player for us, however this shouldn't preclude discussion about where he's currently at.

The question is has the game gone past him and what is his role going forward?

I would suggest that its not on the wing.

I agree with most of what you say but I'd much rather have Macrae on the wing than Poulter.

Its more a reflection of how poor our wing stocks are that we regularly have two long shot rookies on the wings than it is for Macrae's suitability for the role.

Bevo's essentially replaced Macrae with Treloar and the rotations, or lack of stay the same.

Yes he did and he needed to. The problem is that Libba and The Bont are our two best midfielders, but they have many of the same issues as Macare. All 3 are still elite in close but not great once the ball is pushed wide. Treloar isn't great in this regard either, but he at least offers an outlet and speed if we win the contest. This is the reason that Beveridge needed to make the change in my view. As an aside Treloar has be great in the role for most of the season. Like the rest of his teammates he went completely AWOL in the second half last weekend.

So basically I don't think there's any positive change by playing Macrae at HF.

This could be a consequence of how we set up. Or it could be a consequence of Bailey Smiths indifferent season where he hasn't been able to step up and be a reliable part of our primary midfield rotation. If Smith had come on, I doubt that I'd be writing these unpopular posts. Macrae would still be doing his thing, but would have cover around the ball to help hide his defensive deficiencies.

Teams are still getting runs from the centre against us. Now more than ever.

See above. I dont know, but it's been a glaring issue for 3 years and hasn't been addressed. I suspect it's because as Ive said before. We recruited for the last war were games were trench warfare of contested football. The game looks to be evolving more towards a blitzkrieg of fast ball movement and we dont really have any way of adjusting to that fact. We lock games down or we lose.

The only real way to address this is with a rebuild centred around dynamic utilities who can move the ball with pace and precision. And either a complete change in mindset from the coaching panel or a burning down to the ground of the same.

 

[Euku]

Can anyone on our team actually tag though? Need a level of toughness, aggression, and athleticism. Where most of our players get bumped off their feet in contests too easily, crumble under pressure than apply it, and are not exactly quick. We probably don't tag, because we have no one. Be honest, who on our team can play a defensive role on say, Petracca at center bounces? That are capable of winning the ball as well if needed? Feel the cupboard is dead bare there.

Macrae

 

[Munnez]

I've been mentioning it for 2 years, but Daniel is the one we should have moved on. A 5 year contract for a guy with significant limitations was poor.

Would happily move him on is too easily exploited. If he had pace it would be one thing but slow and short not conducive to being a contributor

 

[Munnez]

Can anyone on our team actually tag though? Need a level of toughness, aggression, and athleticism. Where most of our players get bumped off their feet in contests too easily, crumble under pressure than apply it, and are not exactly quick. We probably don't tag, because we have no one. Be honest, who on our team can play a defensive role on say, Petracca at center bounces? That are capable of winning the ball as well if needed? Feel the cupboard is dead bare there.

Reckon Bailey Williams might be a shout if given the task

 

[Mojorisin]

Would happily move him on is too easily exploited. If he had pace it would be one thing but slow and short not conducive to being a contributor

It's all about playing guys to their strengths. Not something we do currently.

 

[dogwatch]

Can anyone on our team actually tag though? Need a level of toughness, aggression, and athleticism. Where most of our players get bumped off their feet in contests too easily, crumble under pressure than apply it, and are not exactly quick. We probably don't tag, because we have no one. Be honest, who on our team can play a defensive role on say, Petracca at center bounces? That are capable of winning the ball as well if needed? Feel the cupboard is dead bare there.

How would we know? Nobody's ever been given the opportunity.

 

[Struggle]

How would we know? Nobody's ever been given the opportunity.

Baz was close to it in the Carlton game and it was in his top two games of the season. Completely blanketed and outworked Cripps only so be sent to rot at HFF 2 weeks later

 

[Libbaaaa]

It’s not necessarily clamping a guy like prime Matt de Boer, it’s about making them accountable and earning it. Newcombe had the easiest 40 touch game ever (doesn’t help that we can’t stick a tackle).

 

[weltschmerz]

How would we know? Nobody's ever been given the opportunity.

Toby McLean gave it a shot before the ACL.

 

[adogsfan5]

I've been mentioning it for 2 years, but Daniel is the one we should have moved on. A 5 year contract for a guy with significant limitations was poor.

He’s had a VERY good season.. I wanted to trade him last year and have changed my mind.

 

[Unorth]

Could very well be at base or not far off it. Guys at Gard's level do tend to sacrifice salary for security.
Baker for 2 years (instead of 1) was a little bit of a head-scratcher but that may be the same case.

You would definitely assume it’s base level. And at the time it would have been expected from us that Gards improved after a somewhat promising 2022.

it just feels like the potential is there for us to undervalue list spots and end up with the same clogging problem we face this year (McComb, Hannan, O’Brien etc).

Can anyone on our team actually tag though? Need a level of toughness, aggression, and athleticism. Where most of our players get bumped off their feet in contests too easily, crumble under pressure than apply it, and are not exactly quick. We probably don't tag, because we have no one. Be honest, who on our team can play a defensive role on say, Petracca at center bounces? That are capable of winning the ball as well if needed? Feel the cupboard is dead bare there.

West kind of tagged Sicily. If anyone on the list can do a job on a midfielder it’s him. Has the tagger disposition too.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

It's all about playing guys to their strengths. Not something we do currently.

I find this particularly frustrating as this seemed to be one of Bevo's main strengths when he first joined us. He played everyone to their strengths and we over performed. Now we seem to force people into roles that clearly don't suit them.

 

[maddog37]

Seeing a few comments regarding how the midfield set-up changed after Libba went down on the weekend, I've detailed the changes we made below and the results were quite surprising to me...

CBAs After Liberatore Got Injured
13 - English (93%)
13 - Treloar (93%)
12 - Bontempelli (86%)
10 - B. Smith (71%)
5 - Macrae (36%)
2 - Daniel (14%)
1 - Lobb (7%)

English and Treloar went up 8% and 17% respectively, while Smith went up by 32%. Bontempelli, Macrae and Daniel spent around the same in the centre as they have done during the year…

CBA % - 2023
85% - English
81% - Bontempelli
78% - Liberatore
76% - Treloar
35% - Macrae
29% - B. Smith
20% - Daniel
15% - Lobb

If you want to dive a bit deeper, here is our midfield setup during Hawthorn’s dominance (Q2-Q4 10’)…

CBAs During Hawthorn’s Dominance (Q2-Q4 10’)
12 - Treloar (100%)
11 - English (92%)
10 - Bontempelli (83%)
9 - B. Smith (75%)
2 - Daniel (17%)
2 - Macrae (17%)
1 - Liberatore (8%)

Treloar attended every single CBA, English all but 1 and Bontempelli all but 2, with Smith generally taking the fourth spot. Daniel and Macrae only attended 2 CBAs each.

During this time period, there were 55 stoppages with Hawthorn winning the clearance count 24-17, but with us winning the first possession count 24-22, meaning that we were fumbling or directly turning it over at the source.

English contested 46 ruck contests against Reeves/Koschitzke in this time period with the following results…

Hitouts To Advantage
WB: 9
HW: 10

Sharks
WB: 4
HW: 5

First Possessions
WB: 20
HW: 18

Clearances
WB: 14
HW: 21

Scores From Stoppages
WB: 0.2 (2)
HW: 4.3 (27)

Lobb contested 9 ruck contests against Reeves/Koschitzke in this time period with the following results…

Hitouts To Advantage
WB: 0
HW: 1

Sharks
WB: 1
HW: 0

First Possessions
WB: 4
HW: 4

Clearances
WB: 3
HW: 3

Scores From Stoppages
WB: 0.2 (2)
HW: 0.0 (0)

Finally this is how each of the players who have attended centre bounces this year has gone in regards to actually winning the clearance, some of the numbers may surprise you...

Centre Clearances Won Per Centre Bounce Attendances
15.0% - Bontempelli
13.8% - Liberatore
13.3% - Macrae
9.6% - B. Smith
8.7% - Treloar
5.3% - English
4.5% - Daniel
0.0% - Darcy
0.0% - Khamis
0.0% - Lobb
0.0% - McLean
0.0% - Ugle-Hagen

This tells me that English has been non competitive?

Play Sweet

 

[Foxman98]

This tells me that English has been non competitive?

Play Sweet

How it was 9 hit outs to advantage to 10?

This was clearly on the midfield

 

[Mofra]

You would definitely assume it’s base level. And at the time it would have been expected from us that Gards improved after a somewhat promising 2022.

it just feels like the potential is there for us to undervalue list spots and end up with the same clogging problem we face this year (McComb, Hannan, O’Brien etc).



West kind of tagged Sicily. If anyone on the list can do a job on a midfielder it’s him. Has the tagger disposition too.

His positioning isn't great and he's get burnt in space.

Bailey Smith is the guy. High workrate, and his run with job on Cripps shows he can do the job.

 

[maddog37]

How it was 9 hit outs to advantage to 10?

This was clearly on the midfield

Attends 93% of cb and only 5% clearance rate.

Scores from stoppage with Lobb versus English does not flatter Tim.

English wins tap and then doesn’t impact the contest enough. Needs to block, shepherd and tackle more.

Needs a wake up call as I feel the ruckman sets the tone at stoppages and Tim is playing below his best in terms of impact on the contest physically.

 

[lachy]

It’s not necessarily clamping a guy like prime Matt de Boer, it’s about making them accountable and earning it. Newcombe had the easiest 40 touch game ever (doesn’t help that we can’t stick a tackle).

It's not even about 1 player. Bont did not have a single hard tag. 3 or 4 different players made sure he was heavily covered at each contest and from the spread at the contest

On SM-G996B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[flipper83]

Seeing a few comments regarding how the midfield set-up changed after Libba went down on the weekend, I've detailed the changes we made below and the results were quite surprising to me...

CBAs After Liberatore Got Injured
13 - English (93%)
13 - Treloar (93%)
12 - Bontempelli (86%)
10 - B. Smith (71%)
5 - Macrae (36%)
2 - Daniel (14%)
1 - Lobb (7%)

English and Treloar went up 8% and 17% respectively, while Smith went up by 32%. Bontempelli, Macrae and Daniel spent around the same in the centre as they have done during the year…

CBA % - 2023
85% - English
81% - Bontempelli
78% - Liberatore
76% - Treloar
35% - Macrae
29% - B. Smith
20% - Daniel
15% - Lobb

If you want to dive a bit deeper, here is our midfield setup during Hawthorn’s dominance (Q2-Q4 10’)…

CBAs During Hawthorn’s Dominance (Q2-Q4 10’)
12 - Treloar (100%)
11 - English (92%)
10 - Bontempelli (83%)
9 - B. Smith (75%)
2 - Daniel (17%)
2 - Macrae (17%)
1 - Liberatore (8%)

Treloar attended every single CBA, English all but 1 and Bontempelli all but 2, with Smith generally taking the fourth spot. Daniel and Macrae only attended 2 CBAs each.

During this time period, there were 55 stoppages with Hawthorn winning the clearance count 24-17, but with us winning the first possession count 24-22, meaning that we were fumbling or directly turning it over at the source.

English contested 46 ruck contests against Reeves/Koschitzke in this time period with the following results…

Hitouts To Advantage
WB: 9
HW: 10

Sharks
WB: 4
HW: 5

First Possessions
WB: 20
HW: 18

Clearances
WB: 14
HW: 21

Scores From Stoppages
WB: 0.2 (2)
HW: 4.3 (27)

Lobb contested 9 ruck contests against Reeves/Koschitzke in this time period with the following results…

Hitouts To Advantage
WB: 0
HW: 1

Sharks
WB: 1
HW: 0

First Possessions
WB: 4
HW: 4

Clearances
WB: 3
HW: 3

Scores From Stoppages
WB: 0.2 (2)
HW: 0.0 (0)

Finally this is how each of the players who have attended centre bounces this year has gone in regards to actually winning the clearance, some of the numbers may surprise you...

Centre Clearances Won Per Centre Bounce Attendances
15.0% - Bontempelli
13.8% - Liberatore
13.3% - Macrae
9.6% - B. Smith
8.7% - Treloar
5.3% - English
4.5% - Daniel
0.0% - Darcy
0.0% - Khamis
0.0% - Lobb
0.0% - McLean
0.0% - Ugle-Hagen

I think the issue is our flick it around game style. Against strong midfields the opposition can just stick to their opponents and harry the player with the ball until we lose possession or turn it over.
The opposition then get the ball and hold on to it and charge forward, either breaking tackles or drawing additional tacklers releasing other players.
Hawthorn was given a fair bit of leeway with prior opportunity but in finals the whistle often gets out away and we've seen enough evidence that against the better teams our midfield game style doesn't stack up.
The real kicker is that, even when the flicking it around does work it doesn't seem to translate into efficient forward entries.
It's really frustrating that we keep persisting with it.