List Mgmt. Trade Week 2016 - Live Thread

[new breed]

It's clear the club believe the premiership window is fully open and are building a list that has plenty of redundancy by sticking with experience. That's great but we also need to make sure the future pipeline isn't sacrificed - I'm confident the club will get the balance right.

The club say they dont talk premiership windows more being capable of a top four finish each season ....

Need to look at the future in good drafts interesting we will take best available so maybe English or Logue will be in contention.

 

[WCErevival]

If we are getting Petrie too i think we should just delist Mcinnes all together.

There's not really much point because we still have to pay him and we have enough list spots.

 

[Nev57]

How much ruck cover do we need for 3/4 of a season?

Lycett, Giles, Vardy can surely cover between them until Naitanui returns in the latter stages of the year. Petrie, superstar that he is, is overkill IMO.

I'm staggered by that decision ,I just can't see what Petrie has to offer how could you waste a pick on him ??


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[SpaceClef]

Would we have gotten more than Adelaide got for Lyons? They got pick 43 and change. Even in a strong draft pick 43 isn't a guarantee of getting something useable.

And bear in mind that if a club starts shopping a player they're not going to get full value for him. Just look at Mitchell and Lewis.

This is the point that actually bugs me. "I'm sure we could have got more draft picks if we wanted to" is just a blanket statement that you've got no real basis for making. We have no actual x of knowing whether the club was desperately scrambling for more picks and getting met with brick walls at every turn, or whether they were happy to sit back and hold the cards they had, because they don't release that sort of strategy publicly.

What I mean is if the club set their #1 priority as getting more draft picks then they could have. I'm sure they would have liked to improve their draft position, but only at the right price, and as you say we aren't privy to that reasoning.

So my point is that instead of prioritizing the draft above all else, they most likely prioritised holding onto contracted players unless we received a certain return, and the other clubs for whatever reason weren't willing to pay that. Whether or not that is a good list management strategy is beside the point.

The debate then turns to what the right price is, which is subjective. But to use your example of Lyons - well I think his value was reduced because he publicly wanted to leave Adelaide.

But to use the Masten example, I wouldn't be upset if we got a pick in the late 30s/early 40s for him. I think the coaches should be seriously considering what he offers the team. I think he could offer more to other clubs who have less outside run than we do, so the "well if you want him traded out, why would any other team want him" argument doesn't necessarily work.

RE: your first sentence, I think there is a fairly good likelihood of success using a pick in the late second round/early third round on a specialist player like a small forward or project ruckman, and given the holes in our list, such a player would IMO offer more to our team than Masten does.

Obviously we don't know what happened behind closed doors, and for all I know they may have been trying to achieve exactly this outcome, but that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed it didn't happen.

 

[SpaceClef]

Sensible post.


Not so sensible post. What happens if Lycett's knee flares up, Giles' game vs Crows was a one off and Vardy gets injured. All are likely. Better to have something than nothing. We'll just be back here in 12 months time lamenting another what-if season.

Then why waste a pick on Vardy? It was a cheap pick, but might have come in handy for getting Waterman and letting us use our third rounder on a small forward (rather than our second - if a small forward is what the club has in mind).

It will be ****ing annoying if we rookie Petrie

 

[swooshacummings]

Pretty weird. Gave away McCarthy, Ahern, Pickett and Marchbank for absolutely nothing. Get an A. wtf

Probs as they were not best 25 players this season yet secured a class hbf type and traded up to 3. Pretty good going I think.

 

[Broken_Chairs]

Petrie makes zero sense now, just bring in a young ruck project (i.e. Cameron or that leather eater from colburg)

 

[paran]

JOMs finals experience = 0
Lewis = 4 flags, 20+ finals
More upside maybe but right now a better player he is not.

Sam was out disposaling Tom when he was in nappies.

Hawks have made a major gamble. They weren't going to improve enough with their list - in fact, it was likely with the number of 30yo's that they would go backwards, and they realistically viewed themselves as unable to match GWS and WB in the next couple of year. Therefore, they've pressed the button early. They are going to go backward in '17, but they're banking on retirements next year freeing salary cap, then watch them go after the FA's. Yes, JOM is a major gamble, but he has potential, and if you view Conniglio's development, it's about right now that he'll start maturing.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I am of the belief that clubs who want to win in their window but also want to look to the future rarely if ever win the ultimate prize. I don't think you can do both. When in your window you do all required to win the flag,if that is trade only with little care about draft picks then so be it. Hawthorn are the template for this.
It is of course always about balance but drafting puts you in a window in 3-5 years, it doesn't help your existing window. I actually don't envy these list management jobs at clubs as it is a bloody hard thing to get right, easy if you just want to be finalists most years only though.

 

[SpaceClef]

Petrie should just retire with dignity.

 

[Suma Magic]

The draft order list on the afl site has Carlton with GWS' 2nd round pick and hawthorn with carltons

And the trade tracker makes no mention of the GWS pick in the hawthorn - Carlton pick swap

On face value it's a terrible trade and if I was a Carlton supporter I'd be seething

Hawthorn traded their 2017 second to Gold Coast after getting GWS' 2017 second from Carlton.

Edit: you're probably right.

 

[bodazoka]

Hawks have made a major gamble. They weren't going to improve enough with their list - in fact, it was likely with the number of 30yo's that they would go backwards, and they realistically viewed themselves as unable to match GWS and WB in the next couple of year. Therefore, they've pressed the button early. They are going to go backward in '17, but they're banking on retirements next year freeing salary cap, then watch them go after the FA's. Yes, JOM is a major gamble, but he has potential, and if you view Conniglio's development, it's about right now that he'll start maturing.

It's a perfect parachute landing down the bottom of the ladder, they are awesome at list management!

 

[eaglesnutcase]

Neither am I. While the equalisation rules in place aren't perfect. I think they are pretty good.
But having Richmond as the perennial cot cases of the comp brings me immense pleasure, long may it continue.

Sorry Champ but i cant agree on the equalisation rules working.Geelong won three, Hawthorn won four Sydney in four or five GFs and now GWS and GC set to dominate for a decade!Thank god for the Bullies!

 

[QS]

Then why waste a pick on Vardy? It was a cheap pick, but might have come in handy for getting Waterman and letting us use our third rounder on a small forward (rather than our second - if a small forward is what the club has in mind).

It will be ******* annoying if we rookie Petrie

Club obviously thought Waterman wouldn't last until 70's. Vardy is 25 and if his body comes good he is a longer term prospect (e.g. Lobb). Petrie isn't a full time ruck, but he CAN ruck and his body is good. Its good planning.

We have Mitchell and I have the impression despite NN injury we are having a tilt. Why waste the opportunity to have a crack whilst Sammy is still around.

McInnes isn't much chop so why not if its a cheap pickup as a delisted free agent? I don't get the resistance really beyond saying "he's a spud" but yet he's better than our depth?

 

[eaglesnutcase]

It's clear the club believe the premiership window is fully open and are building a list that has plenty of redundancy by sticking with experience. That's great but we also need to make sure the future pipeline isn't sacrificed - I'm confident the club will get the balance right.

If thats what the club thinks then the club is off its trolley!!

 

[Feeling Groovy]

Sorry Champ but i cant agree on the equalisation rules working.Geelong won three, Hawthorn won four Sydney in four or five GFs and now GWS and GC set to dominate for a decade!Thank god for the Bullies!

But some of the other teams that havn't made a dent have been the masters of their own destruction. Melbourne, Brisbane, Carlton and even Freo in the past. Equilisation can't overcome poor management but it can give each team a chance if they get things right. The system isn't perfect of course and we see issues with West Coast and Freo and Brisbane etc having trouble attracting players and free agency may have exacerbated this (although some signs this year were positive). But the concept is pretty good.

 

[eaglesnutcase]

Club obviously thought Waterman wouldn't last until 70's. Vardy is 25 and if his body comes good he is a longer term prospect (e.g. Lobb). Petrie isn't a full time ruck, but he CAN ruck and his body is good. Its good planning.

We have Mitchell and I have the impression despite NN injury we are having a tilt. Why waste the opportunity to have a crack whilst Sammy is still around.

McInnes isn't much chop so why not if its a cheap pickup as a delisted free agent? I don't get the resistance really beyond saying "he's a spud" but yet he's better than our depth?

I agree Mcinnes is not much chop,but why keep him if your not going to use him?At least hes young and MAY improve a bit.Petrie is only going one way!

 

[eaglesnutcase]

But some of the other teams that havn't made a dent have been the masters of their own destruction. Melbourne, Brisbane, Carlton and even Freo in the past. Equilisation can't overcome poor management but it can give each team a chance if they get things right. The system isn't perfect of course and we see issues with West Coast and Freo and Brisbane etc having trouble attracting players and free agency may have exacerbated this (although some signs this year were positive). But the concept is pretty good.

True dat!If i was a Dees or Tigers fan id get their recruiting staff and line them up against a wall and blindfold them...

 

[westoz]

Im wondering if Petrie is being bought in to play CHF and the mention of ruck work at best could be when the ball is only in the forward line??
Yep its either as back up to the back up ruck,a spot on the rookie list or as a second tall forward option.

 

[WCErevival]

If Petrie is being brought in on the rookie list I'm guessing he wont play at all and is only there in case of a major injury.

 

[SpaceClef]

It is of course always about balance but drafting puts you in a window in 3-5 years, it doesn't help your existing window.

So Gaff and Darling didn't help us make the Prelim in 2011?

There have been a total of 11 different first and second year players who played in Grand Finals since 2012.

Obviously you can't rebuild your team from scratch and remain in your window but you can still get good immediate value from draftees which benefits the side long term as well

 

[Special Agent Utah]

Sorry Champ but i cant agree on the equalisation rules working.Geelong won three, Hawthorn won four Sydney in four or five GFs and now GWS and GC set to dominate for a decade!Thank god for the Bullies!

Gold Coast are set to dominate for the next decade?? Not from what we have seen so far

 

[Grahame]

Vardy is 25 and if his body comes good he is a longer term prospect (e.g. Lobb). Petrie isn't a full time ruck, but he CAN ruck and his body is good. Its good planning.
McInnes isn't much chop so why not if its a cheap pickup as a delisted free agent? I don't get the resistance really beyond saying "he's a spud" but yet he's better than our depth?

Agree with this. If we get Petrie for pretty much nothing I can only see upside - but not only as depth. He is an ex-captain (as is Mitchell). Given we got into a GF in 2015 (although maybe lucky), then to perform so dismally against the top sides in 2016, I reckon we pretty much have the 'cattle' but may be fell short in leadership. Adding these two guys should help immensely.

To be a real contender then all the guys who had 'best years' in 2015 - and who mostly disappeared in 2016 - are going to have to recapture that form. Plus our recruits since then (Redden, Jetta, Mitchell, Vardy) are going to need to contribute. Also the up-and-comers like Sheed, Tunbridge, Duggan and Nelson will need to continue to improve. Additionally, you hope that one of those outside the top 28 or so will put their hand up (Karpany?). There are a few ducks there to line up but all of these things are much more likely if we have really good strong leaders.

Then of course we need to find a winning style of play ...

 

[Forward Press]

I agree Mcinnes is not much chop,but why keep him if your not going to use him?At least hes young and MAY improve a bit.Petrie is only going one way!

Contracted for next year, isn't he? Can't get rid of contracted players early without the player agreeing to early termination or the terms of a trade to another club.

Petrie if we pick him up will be a useful depth player. Could also be a coach afterwards. I'm sure we wouldn't use a draft pick or pay him a high wage to lure him across.

If Petrie is being brought in on the rookie list I'm guessing he wont play at all and is only there in case of a major injury.

Some on this board mocked our acquisition of Giles this time last season. I imagine it's the same people this time around too. If our first choice ruckmen go down someone like Petrie could save our ass in a crucial game (eg Giles vs Adelaide).

 

[Lolbert]

So Gaff and Darling didn't help us make the Prelim in 2011?

There have been a total of 11 different first and second year players who played in Grand Finals since 2012.

Obviously you can't rebuild your team from scratch and remain in your window but you can still get good immediate value from draftees which benefits the side long term as well

Sydney last year are the perfect example of this...