Training Training thread - news and live reports

[Snake_Baker]

I think the perception that we are a young side is because we have the most players 22 y/o or younger in the comp

You & others need to stop being nice about this, and start calling it for what it is.

It's the buzzword of the anxious and ignorant.

 

[Nutjob]

Hey, don't blame me because YOUR argument evaporates when the slightest amount of heat is applied to it.

The "play these kids" rationale is straight out of the text book for football illiterates.



Yes, but the point I am making is that YOU didn't have a ****ing CLUE until they were given a run in the AFL and this is what your rationale is really about. You don't have a ****ing clue about ANY kid until they sink or swim in the AFL according to exposed form, and are therefore in NO POSITION to be claiming who should make way for anyone on that basis. It's the rantings of a football illiterate.






Zurhaar - rookie
Larkey - Pick 73
Scott - Pick 49



You wouldn't have the slightest ****ing clue. It's all just footylotto to folks like you.

At least I have an argument. You just put a bunch of words together that forms baseless crap, with a few insults.

If you actually read my post I clearly stated we need a combination of “experience and youth.” I never once referenced to only “play the kids.” We have to roll the dice on some of these kids and see if they can make it. If you want to call that “footylotto” then good for you.

If it was up to you we would still have a bunch of 28-30 year olds running around into the promise land of mediocrity. I for one am glad we don’t have “clueless” people in charge anymore and they clearly made the right call.


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[Usayed Givashe]

This is exactly what it is - a new coaching panel trying players in different positions to get a sense of what might work and what might not.

Noble said he would be doing this in his first interview as coach so no surprises here.

The other fallacy out there is that we are now somehow a 'young side'.

Our midfield will be very experienced; our defence will have solid experience and we might be a little underdone up front but even then there wont be any first year players there - Larkey, Zurhaar, Stevo have been around the block now. The forward line needs one more experienced head in there at that will be either Josh Walker or JZ.

Our list was hopelessly lopsided in 2020 - we were old and a bottom 4 side - the worst possible combination. Appropriate action was taken to cut through that at year end.

But we wont be a young side in 2021 - our first round 22 will be as experienced as the bulk of other sides in the comp.

God I hope this isn’t the case. He could be Nobles by Thursday of Round 2.

Yes, so "play the kids and we'll win premierships" is unmitigated BULLSHIT!

It's the rantings of the football IGNORANT!

Has anyone said we are guaranteed a premiership?

Not a single person has said this, it’s about positioning yourself to be one out and one back and giving yourself a chance. It’s an ultra competitive team sport with a salary cap without many certainties at all, except these 3:

1. Turner will not average more than .5 goals per game
2. Atley will not use his pace and dynamism to advantage the team
3. Hall is the least Shinbonery Player I’ve ever seen.

That my friend is bankable, which is why certain supporters don’t see it the way you do. Irrespective of your rather nuanced/convoluted concept of being better.

All I’m proposing is to select players on their ceiling, not their actual output, which is why you would never have Turner ahead of Taylor, ever. Or probably Atley over Perez for that matter. And I love Jack, I want him to get back to his best and have absolutely no issue with him being trialled down back, forward or where ever he is needed. He is the captain for a reason and perhaps more specifically one of the senior players we need to protect the kids as they come through.

As for your Supercoach fallacy you run-with. SuperCoach is Champion Data and the bloke who ran Champion Data is now our list manager... Are you honestly suggesting that we are not taking SuperCoach or Champion Data into consideration?? I’ve seen you use Champion Data based stats many times to back up one of your petty disputes, SuperCoachSupercoach meh meh meh wah wah wah. It’s not as good as the eye test but it’s the best we have at this moment.

Come on mate, you are better than this.

*, we allll need an instant bit of gratification, but you shouldn’t hang s**t on those blokes within our supporter group who have the patience and the willingness to swim through a river of s**t in order to potentially produce a premiership standard list.

And yes, we all know everything you and others say is correct in terms of Melbourne and Carlton (both of whom are btw currently significantly closer to Finals football than us despite completely ******* up multiple drafts). The thing that bothers me re: that analysis is this - what if we don’t * up the drafts like they did? What if our development program is 5x better? What if for 2-3 drafts we ******* nail it out of the Park and become capable of building a ******* Dynasty? Isn’t that what we are all here for? I know I am, like you, in a football sense I am miserable and have been for 20 years but I aim higher than 8th for my football club. I’d rather finish 18th than 8th in 2021. In any case, we’ll see who’s closer to the pin

All I want to see is 1-2 stirring victories on the back of the kids. Watching us eek out 6-7 wins on the back of Goldy, Cunners and Tarrant etc is borderline irrelevant. I’m sorry mate, but that IMO is fact.

 

[Ligma]

In my personal opinion we have a really freaking good coaching lineup that is going to propel us forward for years to come.

First few rounds we may play our best players to fell for this competition. Meaning what teams are the best, mediocre no one of the lower tier teams so we can adjust each week if we need to.

Just can’t wait to watch the boys play again!


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[Val Keating]

You & others need to stop being nice about this, and start calling it for what it is.

It's the buzzword of the anxious and ignorant.

The Hawks pride themselves on not gifting games and they’re the most successful side since the 70’s.

 

[Shinboner1]

Bullshit.

They also delisted Paul Ahern, Joel Crocker, Lachie Hosie and Tom Murphy.

They also delisted & re-rookied one of the kids that you claim should get a spot over Ziebell.

who?

 

[Shinboner1]

Who was the tall fella running laps with the broken hand Passmore?

Matt Mcguiness.
Blown tendon in hand. Might be ready for rd1 but not pushing it.

 

[Shagga is all Class]

Good post.

I can see Jack down back in a defence that holds it's structure and looks to get out using forward movement either by long kicking or midfield running transition. Based on what I saw last year, this is the game plan that is emerging. It's also why Brown was viewed as having less tactical value.

Jack & L-Mac could be utilised as the rebounding kicking springboards. Jack also plays taller than his height and has the smarts to zone well defensively. His only real liability is top line pace.

Once saw an interview with Jakovich who was savaged after a game by Malthouse in which Carey took Jakovich apart. Malthouse was adamant that Jako had to beat or nullify that bloke over the next 10 years in order for West Coast to win finals and a flag. And if Jako couldn't to it, Malthouse was gonna find someone who could.

So in the modern context, our coaches should be looking at the LMACs and Kyrons to take those mid-forward threats such as Dusty, Danger and Fyfe.

As for JZ, well the Dogs were looking to delist Matthew Boyd and then tuned him into a half back. Was he quick? Don't think JZ is finished just yet. Bit of a utility type, forward, possibly back and in case of emergency, inside mid. JZ is at least worth a preseason trial at HB.

I am more interested in our coaching panel showing a sustainable brand of football than who is selected. The most recent recruitment and drafting has all been geared to certain types other than Corr. One would hope the recruitment fits the brand.

 

[Wonderdog]

The play the kids” rationale has been round a long time. I recall Cunners being gifted a lot of games when he first came in. His performances at that stage certainly didn’t warrant them.

I guess the logic was He is a high draft pick, he has lots of talent, the quicker he getsthe experience in the big time the quicker the talent will be turned into performance. Cunners is proof that the theory works. We also tried it with others. Basti comes to mind, but it did work out so well.


We still have plenty of experienced Guys to provide onfield leadership & direction so there is no point having the most talented VFL side. I think we will rotate the draftees through alongside JZ, Goldy et al.

 

[Usayed Givashe]

The Hawks pride themselves on not gifting games and they’re the most successful side since the 70’s.

There is no gifting games, the kids are already better than the incumbents. How is this so hard to comprehend? Did you not watch us last year? We are vomitus.

Imagine you and snake as the co-chairmen of selectors at the Suns last year... “Can’t play Rowell” “of course we can’t mate” “need to back in Will Brodie” or some other scrubber. Ditto for Rankine and Anderson and whatever incumbent scrub was keeping their spot warm.

FFS, These ‘kids’ are more developed and twice as professional and better than half our list.

Blind loyalty to players who have been our list almost a decade and shown essentially nothing is not a recipe for success either.

 

[The Y Factor]

Clubs have built dynasties playing youth, others have won flags. What we have done for the last 20 years hasn’t worked and that’s fact.

I’m not suggesting we play only kids and I don’t think the previous poster was either. We need a balance between youth and experience, with the goal being to win a flag not necessarily winning round 1 next year.

Ziebell is nearing 30 and has never played half back. Perez for example has shown promise playing that half back role and is 10 years younger. Can I see the rationale behind a poster preferring to go with the younger more equipped player ? Yes I can.


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I think we are reading too much into JZ playing one scrap match at CHB.

The coach has stated he wants players to be flexible and be able to play multiple roles.

my guess is that they are planning for that capability which should not limit the opportunity of our youngsters snd may in fact provide more opportunity for the ones able to play multiple roles.

Certainly the original posters concerns are reasonable but I would think unwarranted

 

[The Y Factor]

The play the kids” rationale has been round a long time. I recall Cunners being gifted a lot of games when he first came in. His performances at that stage certainly didn’t warrant them.

I guess the logic was He is a high draft pick, he has lots of talent, the quicker he getsthe experience in the big time the quicker the talent will be turned into performance. Cunners is proof that the theory works. We also tried it with others. Basti comes to mind, but it did work out so well.


We still have plenty of experienced Guys to provide onfield leadership & direction so there is no point having the most talented VFL side. I think we will rotate the draftees through alongside JZ, Goldy et al.

and their young bodies won’t last 22 games each so there will be opportunity throughout the year!

 

[The Y Factor]

You raise an interesting point, but you left out Xerri. Perhaps they have Josh earmarked for a KPF spot?

Surely those two will be in the mix as well as JZ

for me, The JZ on the backline is purely about flexibility for the captain do they can blood the new recruits etc through the midfield.

He will surely play forward. Back and even limited midfield minutes if snd when needed.

 

[DunderHead]

Once saw an interview with Jakovich who was savaged after a game by Malthouse in which Carey took Jakovich apart. Malthouse was adamant that Jako had to beat or nullify that bloke over the next 10 years in order for West Coast to win finals and a flag. And if Jako couldn't to it, Malthouse was gonna find someone who could.

So in the modern context, our coaches should be looking at the LMACs and Kyrons to take those mid-forward threats such as Dusty, Danger and Fyfe.

As for JZ, well the Dogs were looking to delist Matthew Boyd and then tuned him into a half back. Was he quick? Don't think JZ is finished just yet. Bit of a utility type, forward, possibly back and in case of emergency, inside mid. JZ is at least worth a preseason trial at HB.

I am more interested in our coaching panel showing a sustainable brand of football than who is selected. The most recent recruitment and drafting has all been geared to certain types other than Corr. One would hope the recruitment fits the brand.

Jack impacts the game. I reckon there is an increased value in a player like this being able to play in all three regions of the field when necessary. Its probably even more valuable again if we're fielding a young side that is likely to need support in each area at various stages of games.

 

[The Y Factor]

Jack impacts the game. I reckon there is an increased value in a player like this being able to play in all three regions of the field when necessary. Its probably even more valuable again if we're fielding a young side that is likely to need support in each area at various stages of games.

100%

Similar talk from the coach about the ruck position. Talk of two rucks - likely to blood the next young ruck and educate him under Goldy.

games into and support the young - maximise our experience

 

[Snake_Baker]

People carry on like Perez and Hayden are walk up starts because they showed some positive traits in a very experimental season, but there's no way right now that they are better footballers than Jack Ziebell

7

Jack Ziebell

Age

33

Ht

188cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.1

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

6.3

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

4.6

5star

MG

369.5

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.6

3star

MG

125.8

2star

D

16.2

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

4.8

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

3.0

5star

, and playing blokes in the AFL for development is probably the biggest fallacy going around.

The anxious and ignorant want to see it because they have this idea that it will fast track a premiership. What rot!

 

[Snake_Baker]

As for JZ, well the Dogs were looking to delist Matthew Boyd and then tuned him into a half back. Was he quick? Don't think JZ is finished just yet. Bit of a utility type, forward, possibly back and in case of emergency, inside mid. JZ is at least worth a preseason trial at HB.

JZ as a defender depends upon the game plan that it utilised, but unfortunately most folks don't put that level of thought in to it.

 

[Snake_Baker]

who?

Hayden

 

[Snake_Baker]

All I want to see is 1-2 stirring victories on the back of the kids.

You have very low standards.

 

[Shagga is all Class]

Jack impacts the game. I reckon there is an increased value in a player like this being able to play in all three regions of the field when necessary. Its probably even more valuable again if we're fielding a young side that is likely to need support in each area at various stages of games.

It is a long season that needs hardened bodies and the fact is many of our kids got injured when given the opportunity last year.

LMAC took, what until 25 years of age to produce a season to warrant the hype. Atley peaked early but can at least get on the park every week.

Far out, if the Dogs can get away will playing Caleb Daniel in the backline, then a scratch game with Ziebell or even Jack Mahony back there is no cause for concern. IMHO both are more likely than Bonar.

 

[Val Keating]

There is no gifting games, the kids are already better than the incumbents. How is this so hard to comprehend? Did you not watch us last year? We are vomitus.

Imagine you and snake as the co-chairmen of selectors at the Suns last year... “Can’t play Rowell” “of course we can’t mate” “need to back in Will Brodie” or some other scrubber. Ditto for Rankine and Anderson and whatever incumbent scrub was keeping their spot warm.

FFS, These ‘kids’ are more developed and twice as professional and better than half our list.

Blind loyalty to players who have been our list almost a decade and shown essentially nothing is not a recipe for success either.

If they earn their spot it’s theirs.

 

[The Anvil]

There is no gifting games, the kids are already better than the incumbents. How is this so hard to comprehend? Did you not watch us last year? We are vomitus.

.

Come on, the kids are better than the incumbents?

The kids have a crapload of potential and have had some nice moments but as it stands the kids aren’t even better than Dom Tyson!


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[Caracas]

It's pretty well known that I am not one of the "play the kids at all costs" root & branch rebuild automatons.

That is the football supporter equivalent of praying. It's for the ignorant.

I’m not sure whether I 100% agree with you on this Snake. Although, I strongly suspect I do. However, the post itself is priceless. Cruel, but...


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[dus]

I’m not going to worry about who, I’m more interested in the how.

 

[Passmore]

Even if we don't play the kids initially, we will at some point. Natural attrition will take care of that.The U23 brigade make up over half the list.

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