Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Gralin]

Where you getting those numbers from Nickoo

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Hardly. Detransitioning is the norm. So 88% of trans kids are gay in the west and 4% bi with 92% sexually abused and almost 100% borderline. The genesis of borderline is a lack of attachment in childhood to the primary care giver. Another side effect of a lack of attachment is deficits in affect and empathy. The other thing that trans kids and adults have is asd traits, low affect and poor empathy.


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Not saying your facts are wrong, but do you have any links to back that up? Would like to explore a bit more.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You need to calm down, mate.

I'm calm.

Just tryna explain the situation.

Calling someone out doesn't necessarily equate to being triggered as you've assumed.

 

[Cap]

So I posted this on the Adelaide board but interested in other thoughts. It basically tallies sexual assualts on kids and breaks down by whom.

Who's Making News?

Tracking News Reporting of Sex Crimes Against Minors

www.whoismakingnews.com

So it's been put to me that DAs and Judges in the US are less likely to prosecute transgender people so these statistics are pointless/skewed

It's also by a tiktok creator so it's quality would be worth questioning.

Has anyone else come across this kind of information? Is it skewed? Are judges less likely to jail transgender people ?

To be honest my initial horror was who is doing the sexual assualts, friends and family, I mean WTF.

 

[owen87]

So I posted this on the Adelaide board but interested in other thoughts. It basically tallies sexual assualts on kids and breaks down by whom.

Who's Making News?

Tracking News Reporting of Sex Crimes Against Minors

www.whoismakingnews.com

So it's been put to me that DAs and Judges in the US are less likely to prosecute transgender people so these statistics are pointless/skewed

It's also by a tiktok creator so it's quality would be worth questioning.

Has anyone else come across this kind of information? Is it skewed? Are judges less likely to jail transgender people ?

To be honest my initial horror was who is doing the sexual assualts, friends and family, I mean WTF.

The bolded actually surprises you? I thought it was pretty common knowledge. Pretty sure it's the same with sexual assault, it's much less 'surprise rapist dragging you off the street' and much more someone known to the victim.

 

[Gralin]

So I posted this on the Adelaide board but interested in other thoughts. It basically tallies sexual assualts on kids and breaks down by whom.

Who's Making News?

Tracking News Reporting of Sex Crimes Against Minors

www.whoismakingnews.com

So it's been put to me that DAs and Judges in the US are less likely to prosecute transgender people so these statistics are pointless/skewed

It's also by a tiktok creator so it's quality would be worth questioning.

Has anyone else come across this kind of information? Is it skewed? Are judges less likely to jail transgender people ?

To be honest my initial horror was who is doing the sexual assualts, friends and family, I mean WTF.

was the bold put to you by someone on the board without reference to back it up?

on the person in question for the link you provided it seems they are an attorney that practices in New York who also happens to be a trans woman so I'm sure this topic has particular person interest to her as its something she sees in her work as well as sees the accusations in the community

https://twitter.com/ChrissieSeeB

 

[Gralin]

and yeah as owen87 the biggest risks to kids for assault generally come from people with regular access, eg friends, family, people who are in a position that gives them access (priests, teachers, sports coaches et)

online has changed things with a lot of online abuse now plus an avenue for access to kids that doesn't require knowing them to begin with

but those stats shouldn't be surprising to anyone really

 

[Cap]

was the bold put to you by someone on the board without reference to back it up?

on the person in question for the link you provided it seems they are an attorney that practices in New York who also happens to be a trans woman so I'm sure this topic has particular person interest to her as its something she sees in her work as well as sees the accusations in the community

https://twitter.com/ChrissieSeeB

Okay I didn't look that far into it. So a person at least in the know.

I'm aware the transgender topic can be emotive so I've tried to avoid pushing these things to hard.

I assume at some stage people will provide some sort of evidence of DAs doing it, or the constant lack of mass transgender assults will change peoples mind

 

[Engimal v3]

So I posted this on the Adelaide board but interested in other thoughts. It basically tallies sexual assualts on kids and breaks down by whom.

Who's Making News?

Tracking News Reporting of Sex Crimes Against Minors

www.whoismakingnews.com

So it's been put to me that DAs and Judges in the US are less likely to prosecute transgender people so these statistics are pointless/skewed

It's also by a tiktok creator so it's quality would be worth questioning.

Has anyone else come across this kind of information? Is it skewed? Are judges less likely to jail transgender people ?

To be honest my initial horror was who is doing the sexual assualts, friends and family, I mean WTF.

Aren't transgendered people less than 1% of the population? And trans criminals would be an even smaller group. I would be surprised if there's enough data to draw any real conclusions.

 

[Gralin]

Aren't transgendered people less than 1% of the population? And trans criminals would be an even smaller group. I would be surprised if there's enough data to draw any real conclusions.

which is why people will claim conspiracies like judges let them off so they won't show up on the stats

 

[the_interloper]

The bolded actually surprises you? I thought it was pretty common knowledge. Pretty sure it's the same with sexual assault, it's much less 'surprise rapist dragging you off the street' and much more someone known to the victim.

Yeah I thought that most rape victims knew the attacker as well, the Adrian Bayley type scenario is not common (and thank * for that)

 

[Cap]

Aren't transgendered people less than 1% of the population? And trans criminals would be an even smaller group. I would be surprised if there's enough data to draw any real conclusions.

One of the talking point for the anti trans brigade is that trans people are basically sex offenders waiting to offend.

So you would assume you'd see that in the stats via a larger share of offenders

 

[Nickoo]

Not saying your facts are wrong, but do you have any links to back that up? Would like to explore a bit more.

Google interim Cass Report for a start. From this UK GIDS Tavistock was shut down and S1 and S2 treatments were restricted.

Interim report – Cass Review

cass.independent-review.uk

Then google Spectrum for Borderline service to understand the genesis of BPD which is 70+% female cohort.

Spectrum - Spectrum

www.spectrumbpd.com.au

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[Gralin]

Google interim Cass Report for a start. From this UK GIDS Tavistock was shut down and S1 and S2 treatments were restricted.

Interim report – Cass Review

cass.independent-review.uk

Then google Spectrum for Borderline service to understand the genesis of BPD which is 70+% female cohort.

Spectrum - Spectrum

www.spectrumbpd.com.au

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yeah I don't see your numbers being backed up by these links

 

[Nickoo]

yeah I don't see your numbers being backed up by these links

Hardly given that Cass at least presented those exact numbers. I take you are not familiar with this area. They will differ in various jurisdictions but in most western
Countries strikingly similar hence why Scandinavian countries and the UK are reversing long standing policies on S1 and S2 treatments in gender clinics and moving towards holistic assessment, interventions and deemphasising biological treatments in the process.

Cass’ additional work on psychological distress in adult trans cohorts after receiving S1-3 is ground breaking because it suggests little if any psychological improvement after biological treatments in isolation.


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[Gralin]

Hardly given that Cass at least presented those exact numbers. I take you are not familiar with this area. They will differ in various jurisdictions but in most western
Countries strikingly similar hence why Scandinavian countries and the UK are reversing long standing policies on S1 and S2 treatments in gender clinics and moving towards holistic assessment, interventions and deemphasising biological treatments in the process.

Cass’ additional work on psychological distress in adult trans cohorts after receiving S1-3 is ground breaking because it suggests little if any psychological improvement after biological treatments in isolation.


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give us the direct quotes out of the links you provided that back up what you said here

Hardly. Detransitioning is the norm. So 88% of trans kids are gay in the west and 4% bi with 92% sexually abused and almost 100% borderline. The genesis of borderline is a lack of attachment in childhood to the primary care giver. Another side effect of a lack of attachment is deficits in affect and empathy. The other thing that trans kids and adults have is asd traits, low affect and poor empathy.


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[Gethelred]

give us the direct quotes out of the links you provided that back up what you said here

I've just read it.

The report provides the following mentions of detransitioning in their findings:
From page 19:

1.26. Internationally as well as nationally, longer-term follow-up data on children and young people who have been seen by gender identity services is limited, including for those who have received physical interventions; who were transferred to adult services and/or accessed private services; or who desisted, experienced regret or detransitioned.

From pages 36-37:

3.21. The most difficult question in relation to feminising/masculinising hormones therefore is not about long-term physical risk which is tangible and easier to understand. Rather, given the irreversible nature of many of the changes, the greatest difficulty centres on the decision to proceed to physical transition; this relies on the effectiveness of the assessment, support and counselling processes, and ultimately the shared decision making between clinicians and patients. Decisions need to be informed by long-term data on the range of outcomes, from satisfaction with transition, through a range of positive and negative mental health outcomes, through to regret and/or a decision to detransition. The NICE evidence review demonstrates the poor quality of these data, both nationally and internationally.

From page 47:

The issues faced by detransitioners highlight the need for better services and pathways for this group, many of whom are living with irreversible effects of transition but for whom there is no clear access to services as they fall outside the responsibility of NHS gender identity services.

From page 49:

4.24. Therapists who work with detransitioners and people with regret have highlighted a lack of services and pathways and a need for services to support this population. There is also the need for more research to understand what factors contribute to the decision to detransition

There's nothing in the Cass interim report to suggest that detransition rates are the norm at all. If anything, there's a considerable amount of uncertainty throughout; from page 68:

6.1. As outlined throughout this report, there are major gaps in the research base underpinning the clinical management of children and young people with gender incongruence and gender dysphoria, including the appropriate approaches to assessment and treatment.

 

[Gralin]

I've just read it.

There's nothing in the Cass interim report to suggest that detransition rates are the norm at all.

I've not seen anything anywhere that suggests that

what I have mostly seen is that the available data on the topic of de transitioning is poor

but where that data exists the reasons for it vary but are more commonly external

eg family pressure, feeling unsafe in public, inability to get access to care etc

the cass report is also trying to walk a middle ground between groups that support gender affirming care and groups that suggest its a pathological issue that needs to be treated

compromise is not necessarily the right path in that situation though our society has been taught its the way to go when two groups disagree on something

the constant references to lack of consensus on topics really is misleading too, because 100% consensus is rarely if ever achieved and some of these topics at the time the report was released had majority support in the field but were listed as undecided in the report

 

[Gethelred]

I've not seen anything anywhere that suggests that

what I have mostly seen is that the available data on the topic of de transitioning is poor

but where that data exists the reasons for it vary but are more commonly external

eg family pressure, feeling unsafe in public, inability to get access to care etc

the cass report is also trying to walk a middle ground between groups that support gender affirming care and groups that suggest its a pathological issue that needs to be treated

compromise is not necessarily the right path in that situation though our society has been taught its the way to go when two groups disagree on something

the constant references to lack of consensus on topics really is misleading too, because 100% consensus is rarely if ever achieved and some of these topics at the time the report was released had majority support in the field but were listed as undecided in the report

Trans people represent under a percent of the population (based on data from America) so finding people who have detransitioned (considering that I've seen data which puts detransition rates as low as 0.3 percent) would be a fraught enough exercise as it is.

For context (from the first link) 1.4 million people in America identify as transgender. 0.3 percent of that is 4200; you've now got to find the ones that want to talk to you or participate in a study, when their reasons for both transitioning and detransitioning in the first place are intensely private and they may just want to get on with their lives.

As for the Cass report's issues around use of medical language, I'm struggling a little here myself. It's certainly not helpful to treat a transgendered social identity as a form of mental illness, but for research purposes they have to categorise it as something and society needs a wider lens through which to view mental illness as a whole rather than something that happens to a select few.

 

[Gralin]

Trans people represent under a percent of the population (based on data from America) so finding people who have detransitioned (considering that I've seen data which puts detransition rates as low as 0.3 percent) would be a fraught enough exercise as it is.

For context (from the first link) 1.4 million people in America identify as transgender. 0.3 percent of that is 4200; you've now got to find the ones that want to talk to you or participate in a study, when their reasons for both transitioning and detransitioning in the first place are intensely private and they may just want to get on with their lives.

As for the Cass report's issues around use of medical language, I'm struggling a little here myself. It's certainly not helpful to treat a transgendered social identity as a form of mental illness, but for research purposes they have to categorise it as something and society needs a wider lens through which to view mental illness as a whole rather than something that happens to a select few.

yes mental health issues need to be de-stigmatized but correlation does not equal causation as well and there has been a push from certain people to associate mental health issues or other trauma experienced by trans people as the "real" reason they want to transition

the GC movement went big on attacking autism earlier this year and it got real eugenicist in nature

this of course stemmed from a study or report somewhere that reported on autism in trans people

part of the issue is of course how we treat people with mental health issues, how we treat neurodivergent people in general etc

for people looking to discredit the validity of being trans its fertile ground, and when I see the regurgitation of the same arguments that have been used previously against gays, blacks, women, pretty much anyone fighting for rights that wasn't part of the power structure, I get a little cynical about the validity of the position

 

[Gethelred]

yes mental health issues need to be de-stigmatized but correlation does not equal causation as well and there has been a push from certain people to associate mental health issues or other trauma experienced by trans people as the "real" reason they want to transition

the GC movement went big on attacking autism earlier this year and it got real eugenicist in nature

this of course stemmed from a study or report somewhere that reported on autism in trans people

part of the issue is of course how we treat people with mental health issues, how we treat neurodivergent people in general etc

for people looking to discredit the validity of being trans its fertile ground, and when I see the regurgitation of the same arguments that have been used previously against gays, blacks, women, pretty much anyone fighting for rights that wasn't part of the power structure, I get a little cynical about the validity of the position

But that's kind of the thing: adequate research needs to be done, and that research cannot be solely sociological in nature.

There shouldn't be anything inherently offensive with investigating transgender dysphoria as a mental health issue, because it's connected - as far as we know - to adverse mental health outcomes. The problem here is not with the scientists or the scientific process of experimentation or discovery; the problem is with the wider societal prerogative to stigmatize and to marginalise people without pretext.

 

[Gralin]

But that's kind of the thing: adequate research needs to be done, and that research cannot be solely sociological in nature.

There shouldn't be anything inherently offensive with investigating transgender dysphoria as a mental health issue, because it's connected - as far as we know - to adverse mental health outcomes. The problem here is not with the scientists or the scientific process of experimentation or discovery; the problem is with the wider societal prerogative to stigmatize and to marginalise people without pretext.

i think there are two issues, one of which you have covered there

the other is the growing prevalence of groups that exist purely to push incorrect information via research papers

it makes it even harder to get to real information because they flood the field with their own views

 

[Gralin]

Gethelred the above isn't an issue specific to this topic, we've seen it with vaccine misinfo for example

where you have a "university or research foundation" that releases a bunch of peer reviewed papers that they review among themselves that match the ideological position they have already established on the topic

and you end up with this circular scenario where they are validating each others findings and then that group of papers is used to push the narrative to the wider public via the media and social media

 

[owen87]

yes mental health issues need to be de-stigmatized but correlation does not equal causation as well and there has been a push from certain people to associate mental health issues or other trauma experienced by trans people as the "real" reason they want to transition

I assume growing up feeling as though your brain and your body don't 'fit' together would be pretty mentally challenging, it really shouldn't be a surprise that mental health issues come up for trans people. It's one of those things where if you remove any and all context and nuance then you end up with 'trans people are mentally ill therefore we should ignore them' as a stance some people take.

From memory isn't the transitioning process generally also associated with a reduction in mental health issues?

 

[Gralin]

I assume growing up feeling as though your brain and your body don't 'fit' together would be pretty mentally challenging, it really shouldn't be a surprise that mental health issues come up for trans people. It's one of those things where if you remove any and all context and nuance then you end up with 'trans people are mentally ill therefore we should ignore them' as a stance some people take.

From memory isn't the transitioning process generally also associated with a reduction in mental health issues?

The data is limited as with everything but from memory gender affirming care has been shown to have positive impact.

And that can be as simple as using the name and pronouns the patient wants.

People read gender affirming care and go straight to hormones and surgery but that is only one possible aspect and certainly not where it starts.

And yes mental health professionals are part of it and honestly that is a good thing, and should probably be more common in general.

Dealing with our health systems can be pretty traumatic in general and the overall welfare of patents isn't looked after enough