Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[burge13]

And before you ask, I don't follow women's darts normally, this is an interesting situation though. Darts is non-contact but a reaction like this can't be good for the sport. You'd think those born as a man wouldn't have an advantage?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sports/a-double-win-for-a-trans-darts-player-has-enraged-martina-navratilova/news-story/11d44d1736847fb3782e0f2e585b94dc

It's a 2.3m throw so there shouldn't be any real advantage no. Yet they still separate it to give women a shot at winning as none get close on the major events. Snooker would have no advantage for men over women, not a very physical game yet women dont win.

For this article specifically, surely you can't play both! Pick one and stick to it, it's segregated or completely open surely. Get Luke Littler over to the women's side

 

[Gruffles]

The problem is, parents, teachers, community leaders are being told- No, if they're "identifying" as another "gender", you must never question it. You must never ask whether they're just a young female (or young male) who sits on one end of the behavioural bell curve. You must assume they have this "gender identity" which is permanently different to their "assigned sex" (an oxymoron).

Just on this, as a teacher I don't feel like it's my place to question a student's gender identity. That is something for the student to investigate and explore themselves with the right professionals around them. I am not a qualified mental or physical health professional, I'm qualified in managing and facilitating student learning.

So do I have a problem with being told not to question it? Not at all.

 

[ShanDog]

its accurate

there are a couple of things at play as far as I can tell

1 - We're talking about real single issue people in these organisers of the anti trans rallies

whether its last years one with KJK or this years one without her

the main drivers behind these groups and rallies literally only care about being anti trans

nothing else matters to them, some like KJK are pretty open about it, have said many times they will work with anyone that agrees with them on this one issue because they consider this the number one issue

others I think are a little in denial about that and don't believe that its happening, they can't understand why a misogynist nazi would jump on the bandwagon of saving women from the trans agenda

for the first group denying the nazi links is just politically smart and expedient

for the second group its almost necessary for them to believe the movement and the first group are pure in their intentions

because it all starts to unravel when you realise actual hate groups are siding with you

I agree up until the last point you made. I'm sure for some, they think that way. You certainly do. However, it's simply not logical to say 'That terrible group who I fundamentally disagree with believes the same as me on this other issue, therefore I must be in the wrong.' It's really as simple as the old 'Hitler loved dogs' thing. Just because he liked dogs, doesn't mean liking dogs is inherently a slippery slope or morally wrong.

 

[Chief]

And before you ask, I don't follow women's darts normally, this is an interesting situation though. Darts is non-contact but a reaction like this can't be good for the sport. You'd think those born as a man wouldn't have an advantage?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sports/a-double-win-for-a-trans-darts-player-has-enraged-martina-navratilova/news-story/11d44d1736847fb3782e0f2e585b94dc

What's Martina Navratilova got to do with darts?

 

[ShanDog]

And before you ask, I don't follow women's darts normally, this is an interesting situation though. Darts is non-contact but a reaction like this can't be good for the sport. You'd think those born as a man wouldn't have an advantage?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sports/a-double-win-for-a-trans-darts-player-has-enraged-martina-navratilova/news-story/11d44d1736847fb3782e0f2e585b94dc

Darts strikes me as a sport that has negligible sex advantages. I do wonder if there's an argument to be made about cultural advantage.

 

[owen87]

It's a 2.3m throw so there shouldn't be any real advantage no. Yet they still separate it to give women a shot at winning as none get close on the major events. Snooker would have no advantage for men over women, not a very physical game yet women dont win.

For this article specifically, surely you can't play both! Pick one and stick to it, it's segregated or completely open surely. Get Luke Littler over to the women's side

Different events do it differently it seems.

Won a mixed event (as a female) and then a female event. Didn't enter a male event then a female event the way the headline makes it sound.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Spot on.

There are certain behaviours, preferences, tendencies and interests which are more typical of males or females. For example “girls like people, boys like things” is a stereotype based in thorough study of human behaviour from almost the moment of birth. There are also significant physical biological differences between males and females. However those are only averages. There will always be individual females taller than the average male. There will always be individual males whose behavioural tendencies and interests are more "feminine" ie: typical of females and vice versa.

And the bell curve displaying typical female behaviour and preferences is wider and flatter than the bell curve displaying typical male behaviour and preferences. There are more masculine girls than there are feminine boys. This helps explain why so many girls are now identifying as “trans". Many are just non-typical girls, which are more numerous than non-typical boys...

How much of that is adapted behaviour though? From birth girls are swaddled in pink, boys in blue. Our gender-specific toys get gifted or bought for us from day one. The human mind adapts to the surroundings and we assume roles based on that.

 

[ShanDog]

How much of that is adapted behaviour though? From birth girls are swaddled in pink, boys in blue. Our gender-specific toys get gifted or bought for us from day one. The human mind adapts to the surroundings and we assume roles based on that.

There's no nature vs nurture debate. It's been clear for a while now that it's both. Your examples are the nurturing kind and for sure have an impact. But we also know that males and females have different interests on average from almost birth.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

This is such disingenuous BS

The obvious reply is that hate groups attach themselves to many causes

Take the Palestine rallies. Many Islamists, hizb ut tahrir types, antisemites attend those rallies. If you're just a person concerned for the human rights of starving Palestinian children and want a ceasefire, should you stay home simply because actual "hate groups are siding with you?"

If you thought the government overreached in 2021 with their vaccine mandates and were over-riding human rights (a view subsequently validated by the Queensland Supreme Court), should you have stayed home, due to the presence of far- right people, some of whom brought nooses or hate to those rallies?

Many causes find hate groups attached to the cause. It's what hate groups do.

If you know a hate group, or members of a hate group, are supporting the same cause you are you should denounce it/them. But then we could get into the whole "what IS anti-Semitism?" question, couldn't we? To some, any solidarity with Palestine is anti-Semitism!

 

[PJays]

That is something for the student to investigate and explore themselves with the right professionals around them. I am not a qualified mental or physical health professional, I'm qualified in managing and facilitating student learning.

Totally understandable.

The issue is- you, (or the student welfare people at your school) can only refer students to professionals with government-approved views on gender dysphoria. That is, affirmation only.

Many psychiatrists and psychologists must now refuse to treat children in accordance with their understanding of best practice based on best evidence.

 

[Gruffles]

Totally understandable.

The issue is- you, (or the student welfare people at your school) can only refer students to professionals with government-approved views on gender dysphoria. That is, affirmation only.

We only recommend they see a professional if they are seeking some help managing any social/emotional concerns that are ongoing or more complex than what some general adult advice can deal with, or if they've got a medical emergency.

We don't make referrals for students based solely on if they are questioning their gender identity or if they choose to transition. Our advice would only be to start at a GP, but we wouldn't refer them to a specific GP. I'm not quite sure where you're going with the "government approved" views aspect, but I'm also not sure what else you'd want a school/teachers to do.

Can you clarify what you'd prefer we'd do?

 

[Gralin]

Real bottom of the barrel stuff now...

I can't believe you all side with mass shooting gun extremists.

https://www.trtworld.com/perspectives/unmasking-trantifa-the-extremely-violent-side-of-transgender-activism-13601646

Again, remember a few pages ago where you were happy for trans people to live their lives away from sports?

Explain to me how this post from you is about that? About letting trans people live their lives without sport.

How is a school shooter relevant to the discussion just because they are a trans person.

That article is suggesting that the problem was they are a trans extremist, but is there any evidence at all that the shooting had anything to do with them being trans?

What is a trans extremist? Why would they shoot up a school?

Have we had a spate of similar shootings since given the article seems to think this is an organised trans terrorist group?

Or have you just googled something dumb to try and score points on the internet because you don't like the fact that nazis were at a rally on the weekend in Melbourne?

 

[owen87]

We only recommend they see a professional if they are seeking some help managing any social/emotional concerns that are ongoing or more complex than what some general adult advice can deal with, or if they've got a medical emergency.

We don't make referrals for students based solely on if they are questioning there gender identity or if they choose to transition. Our advice would only be to start at a GP, but we wouldn't refer them to a specific GP. I'm not quite sure where you're going with the "government approved" views aspect, but I'm also not sure what else you'd want a school/teachers to do.

Can you clarify what you'd prefer we'd do?

I suspect he doesn't know and is just repeating various cliches and talking points from conservative news outlets.

 

[Gralin]

I agree up until the last point you made. I'm sure for some, they think that way. You certainly do. However, it's simply not logical to say 'That terrible group who I fundamentally disagree with believes the same as me on this other issue, therefore I must be in the wrong.' It's really as simple as the old 'Hitler loved dogs' thing. Just because he liked dogs, doesn't mean liking dogs is inherently a slippery slope or morally wrong.

No I'm sorry Hitler loves dogs is not he same slippery slope as Nazis actually targeted trans people

One of them is not like the other

We know from history what Nazis did and wanted to do to trans people

We know from what people like Thomas Sewell have said what the neo nazis want to do with trans people now

I'm not saying everyone that attends one of these rallies is a nazi or wants to kill trans people, but if they're not expelling the nazis from their rallies then they're fine with marching with people that are nazis who do want to kill trans people

And that is a problem

because they will be exposed to increasing violent messaging and if they're not expelling nazis from their movement it will be taken over by them

 

[Gruffles]

Again, remember a few pages ago where you were happy for trans people to live their lives away from sports?

Explain to me how this post from you is about that? About letting trans people live their lives without sport.

How is a school shooter relevant to the discussion just because they are a trans person.

That article is suggesting that the problem was they are a trans extremist, but is there any evidence at all that the shooting had anything to do with them being trans?

What is a trans extremist? Why would they shoot up a school?

Have we had a spate of similar shootings since given the article seems to think this is an organised trans terrorist group?

Or have you just googled something dumb to try and score points on the internet because you don't like the fact that nazis were at a rally on the weekend in Melbourne?

Not sure if you are being disingenuous here, but I'm fairly sure the point being made is that just because one thing happens it doesn't mean everything related to that thing is now true. I.e. Just because nazis turned up to a particular rally, doesn't mean that everyone that stands at that rally or shares the views of the rally are nazis or support the nazi movement (although, I absolutely agree that the rally attendees should be denouncing their presence!). Therefore, on the same point (which is what I believe SnakeMan86 is trying to example here), just because a school shooter was trans, doesn't mean that all trans people or supporters of trans people support school shooters.

To be honest, it's just a really average line of discussion in my view and I agree that the 'guilty by association' line being dragged along here is just painfully low brow. Maybe the confusion lies with the use of the word, 'you'. You (being Gralin) may be referring to something quite loosely, but it certainly reads as if it's being directed at people here.

And just to clarify, just because I seem to share a belief with SnakeMan86 and others on the fact that this line of discussion is trash, doesn't mean that I share their views on everything said here.

 

[Gralin]

This is such disingenuous BS

The obvious reply is that hate groups attach themselves to many causes

Take the Palestine rallies. Many Islamists, hizb ut tahrir types, antisemites attend those rallies. If you're just a person concerned for the human rights of starving Palestinian children and want a ceasefire, should you stay home simply because actual "hate groups are siding with you?"

If you thought the government overreached in 2021 with their vaccine mandates and were over-riding human rights (a view subsequently validated by the Queensland Supreme Court), should you have stayed home, due to the presence of far- right people, some of whom brought nooses or hate to those rallies?

Many causes find hate groups attached to the cause. It's what hate groups do.

look at you going the whataboutism like a big boy

well done

completely irrelevant to the discussion but good on you and SnakeMan86 for defending peoples right to march with neo nazis, a group who have historical links to actually trying to eradicate trans people like its not a relevant thing to be discussing in this thread when there was an anti trans rally in Melbourne on the weekend with actual Neo Nazis in attendance and speaking

also good on you for trying to compare what is happening in Gaza where a State is carpet bombing a city, with a rally to exclude trans women from society, like that rally on Sunday is the same as the pro Palestine rallies

real top shelf leap of logic there PJays, this is why you were removed from the first part of this thread

 

[the_interloper]

It's a 2.3m throw so there shouldn't be any real advantage no. Yet they still separate it to give women a shot at winning as none get close on the major events. Snooker would have no advantage for men over women, not a very physical game yet women dont win.

For this article specifically, surely you can't play both! Pick one and stick to it, it's segregated or completely open surely. Get Luke Littler over to the women's side

What they should do is just have one division I reckon, ruins women's darts probably though.

Chess is very male dominated too, could be a few reasons for that though, I'd say generally less are interested in it though.

 

[SnakeMan86]

Not sure if you are being disingenuous here, but I'm fairly sure the point being made is that just because one thing happens it doesn't mean everything related to that thing is now true. I.e. Just because nazis turned up to a particular rally, doesn't mean that everyone that stands at that rally or shares the views of the rally are nazis or support the nazi movement (although, I absolutely agree that the rally attendees should be denouncing their presence!). Therefore, on the same point (which is what I believe SnakeMan86 is trying to example here), just because a school shooter was trans, doesn't mean that all trans people or supporters of trans people support school shooters.

To be honest, it's just a really average line of discussion in my view and I agree that the 'guilty by association' line being dragged along here is just painfully low brow. Maybe the confusion lies with the use of the word, 'you'. You (being Gralin) may be referring to something quite loosely, but it certainly reads as if it's being directed at people here.

And just to clarify, just because I seem to share a belief with SnakeMan86 and others on the fact that this line of discussion is trash, doesn't mean that I share they're views on everything said here.

Well said, thankyou.

 

[ShanDog]

No I'm sorry Hitler loves dogs is not he same slippery slope as Nazis actually targeted trans people

One of them is not like the other

We know from history what Nazis did and wanted to do to trans people

We know from what people like Thomas Sewell have said what the neo nazis want to do with trans people now

I'm not saying everyone that attends one of these rallies is a nazi or wants to kill trans people, but if they're not expelling the nazis from their rallies then they're fine with marching with people that are nazis who do want to kill trans people

And that is a problem

because they will be exposed to increasing violent messaging and if they're not expelling nazis from their movement it will be taken over by them

My comment related to the specific position that someone holds in relation to the issue, not whether neo Nazis are a bad influence. Obviously that's true.

 

[SnakeMan86]

look at you going the whataboutism like a big boy

well done

completely irrelevant to the discussion but good on you and SnakeMan86 for defending peoples right to march with neo nazis, a group who have historical links to actually trying to eradicate trans people like its not a relevant thing to be discussing in this thread when there was an anti trans rally in Melbourne on the weekend with actual Neo Nazis in attendance and speaking

also good on you for trying to compare what is happening in Gaza where a State is carpet bombing a city, with a rally to exclude trans women from society, like that rally on Sunday is the same as the pro Palestine rallies

real top shelf leap of logic there PJays, this is why you were removed from the first part of this thread

You know exactly what your doing here. Your playing mental association. Your trying to frame one side now with actively being associated with neo nazis in a continuous effort to throw labels on them. It's gross and totally despicable mod behaviour.

Quote any of us that have hinted in the slightest that we want to march along side neo nazis. Or that they have the right to? Or that Neo Nazis have a right to be there? Or that they are welcome in any kind

Are you in the email chain that sent invites out to the Neo Nazis?

 

[PJays]

look at you going the whataboutism like a big boy

well done

completely irrelevant to the discussion but good on you and SnakeMan86 for defending peoples right to march with neo nazis, a group who have historical links to actually trying to eradicate trans people like its not a relevant thing to be discussing in this thread when there was an anti trans rally in Melbourne on the weekend with actual Neo Nazis in attendance and speaking

also good on you for trying to compare what is happening in Gaza where a State is carpet bombing a city, with a rally to exclude trans women from society, like that rally on Sunday is the same as the pro Palestine rallies

real top shelf leap of logic there PJays, this is why you were removed from the first part of this thread

This is an abysmal post.

It deserves no other response than to simply state how abysmal it is.

 

[burge13]

What they should do is just have one division I reckon, ruins women's darts probably though.

Chess is very male dominated too, could be a few reasons for that though, I'd say generally less are interested in it though.

Yeah, we're just smarter lol

* Ignore all evidence to the contrary (and there's heaps).

 

[Gralin]

Not sure if you are being disingenuous here, but I'm fairly sure the point being made is that just because one thing happens it doesn't mean everything related to that thing is now true. I.e. Just because nazis turned up to a particular rally, doesn't mean that everyone that stands at that rally or shares the views of the rally are nazis or support the nazi movement (although, I absolutely agree that the rally attendees should be denouncing their presence!). Therefore, on the same point (which is what I believe SnakeMan86 is trying to example here), just because a school shooter was trans, doesn't mean that all trans people or supporters of trans people support school shooters.

To be honest, it's just a really average line of discussion in my view and I agree that the 'guilty by association' line being dragged along here is just painfully low brow. Maybe the confusion lies with the use of the word, 'you'. You (being Gralin) may be referring to something quite loosely, but it certainly reads as if it's being directed at people here.

And just to clarify, just because I seem to share a belief with SnakeMan86 and others on the fact that this line of discussion is trash, doesn't mean that I share their views on everything said here.

The problem I have is that here and in the US and UK, Canada, NZ etc, most of these rallies are being organised with money from the Christian right, and there are links to white supremacist groups and neo nazis with many of the organisers of these events directly and indirectly via the money etc

I think you need to look at who is funding and actively running a movement. Anti abortion groups and money are funneled into this, a movement that is supposedly about womens saftey and rights

Groups of people that don't generally treat women as equal are all over this.

There are reasons these people keep turning up at these events and there are reasons the organisers continue to not condemn that.

For the people going to these events, they need to think about what that means for the movement they are part of.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Are you in the email chain that sent invites out to the Neo Nazis?

They hired/borrowed the PA system off the neo nazi, and he MC'd the event.

 

[Gralin]

This is an abysmal post.

It deserves no other response than to simply state how abysmal it is.

couldn't really work out how to spin your little gotcha could you