MRP / Trib. Tribunal Thread - rules and offences discombobulation

[TeeKray]

Powell-Pepper’s bump on Keane was assessed by match review officer Michael Christian as careless conduct, high contact and severe impact, triggering a three match-plus sanction and a direct appearance at the tribunal.

As part of the league’s desire to limit tribunal hearings in 2024, should a player be cited for a three-match ban, they can accept that sanction without going to the tribunal.

What's your point?

This isn't a 3 match suspension in prospect, it's a 3 match plus suspension in prospect (there is a difference) meaning he has to face the tribunal.

We will probably argue for 3 weeks and the AFL will probably argue for 4 weeks.

 

[El_Scorcho]

You really don’t like SPP do you ? I think you’d like to see a record ban.


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**** off.

SPP is one of my favourite players. But I'm not going to put my black and white goggles on and pretend he doesn't deserve a couple of weeks off because I like him.

How little faith do you have in your own footy knowledge that you'd immediately abandon it if you don't like a conclusion you come to?

 

[Brian McGee]

* off.

SPP is one of my favourite players. But I'm not going to put my black and white goggles on and pretend he doesn't deserve a couple of weeks off because I like him.

How little faith do you have in your own footy knowledge that you'd immediately abandon it if you don't like a conclusion you come to?

Has anyone actually said he doesn’t deserve a couple of weeks off though? It’s more that it’s being pushed in the media and by the afl as 4-5 weeks that’s ridiculous.

 

[El_Scorcho]

You’re arguing that baseball batters whose base decision is swing / don’t swing , and have a failure rate of something like 80% completely discredits scientific evidence of human reaction times that I’ve presented.

You argued that the reaction times made SPP basically incapable of reacting in a way that allowed him to avoid a forceful collision.

You're wrong. Elite sportspeople do much more difficult things with less time to react because they can assess what is happening in front of them and predict what will happen next based on countless hours over decades of training and playing. Hitting a baseball in the MLB is just one example.

 

[Wargreymon90]

Why are people mentioning the Maynard incident? It’s not the same thing at all.

There are countless head high bumps similar to the SPP which has resulted in weeks.

This one will be worse because they are setting a new standard which I can understand. I just hope it is applied the same for all teams (which is where I have my doubts).

 

[El_Scorcho]

Has anyone actually said he doesn’t deserve a couple of weeks off though? It’s more that it’s being pushed in the media and by the afl as 4-5 weeks that’s ridiculous.

This thread is full of people arguing that he can't be graded as careless because Rioli tackled Keane into him and there was little to nothing SPP could have reasonably done.

I think our tribunal strategy should be arguing that this is careless/high/high and not careless/high/severe. If this is severe, what happens when someone is knocked out cold?

 

[tribey]

I’m back agreeing with Janus.

#justiceforme

 

[El_Scorcho]

What if:

1. Keane slips the tackle?
2. Keane handballs to Smith instead of spinning?
3. Keane gets rid of the ball as soon as he's tackled (like he's supposed to)?

If I'm a coach, I'm telling my players to 1) play to the whistle and 2) not assume that your teammate is going to do X (tackle, in this instance) until you actually see X happen.

Players need to go into contests with a duty of care to their teammates and opponents. That trumps winning the ball every time.

Players take steps to avoid hurting opponents at every contest in every game. This isn't new. The bump isn't dead. Every player is constantly taking action to avoid hurting an opponent.

If someone hit Rozee or Butters like SPP hit Keane this thread would be out for blood.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I’m back agreeing with Janus.

#justiceforme

I love tribunal discussions because they really shuffle the pack on this board. Like State of Origin, pitting clique member against clique member

 

[philthy05]

You argued that the reaction times made SPP basically incapable of reacting in a way that allowed him to avoid a forceful collision.

You're wrong. Elite sportspeople do much more difficult things with less time to react because they can assess what is happening in front of them and predict what will happen next based on countless hours over decades of training and playing. Hitting a baseball in the MLB is just one example.

You keep presenting an argument that shoots your own thesis apart.

1. The “elite athletes make split second decisions all the time” argument..

.. umm, and you do realise they get it wrong a massive amount of the time yeah?

2. The thing you’re describing is a reflex , not a thought out process.

3. The “elite athletes make split second decisions based on what might happen” …

Yeah based on what they’re seeing , and when something changes they’re ****ed.

When someone sees the ball flying through the air … sure, they’re thinking about where it’s gonna be when they can make a play on it, they’re not doing 1,000,000 computations to allow for something like the ball getting tipped and deflected. Sports people get caught out all the time for things like that.

They can react to events unfolding as expected.


They are not clairvoyants reacting to all possible events.


No matter how many times people claim spp should have known Keane was going to be turned and lowered spp had something like 0.3 seconds to react once it did happen.

Elscorcho answer me this please …


If spp (or any other player) could read play unfolding like that why would any player ever miss getting possession of the ball?

Like if they can judge how play is going to unfold , as you’re adamant spp should have then, shouldn’t they always judge every play correctly?

Or only apply in hindsight to this time?



The reality is most players are running around making “best guess they can” and being wrong. Most contests they get to players don’t even touch the ball as they zig instead of zagging.

 

[Scodges]

* off.

SPP is one of my favourite players. But I'm not going to put my black and white goggles on and pretend he doesn't deserve a couple of weeks off because I like him.

How little faith do you have in your own footy knowledge that you'd immediately abandon it if you don't like a conclusion you come to?

You’ve **** & feathered SPP in all of your posts. I stand by my post, you have it in for him, or the way he plays the game. If you don’t like the way he plays, which is as Port Adelaide as you can get, then he is nowhere near one of your favourite players.



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[Festerz]

Why are people mentioning the Maynard incident? It’s not the same thing at all.

They are mentioning it because the AFL and other media is mentioning it, or rather making it a focal point of every story and social media post on the SPP incident.

And because it is the collision that ultimately led to the retirement from permanent brain trauma of Angus Brayshaw last week.

It's the go-to exemplar that is being used by the AFL to rewrite AFL MRO and Tribunal rules and used by their media partners to demonstrate why we need to hand out tougher penalties to 'stamp out' on fields acts causing concussions. Especially with at least two large class action cases looming against the AFL for permanent damage done to players from previous concussion incidents.

And while you are dead right in saying that the Maynard incident bears close to f-all similarities in terms of the mechanics, timing and context of the SPP incident, it just so happens that the concussion of Keane is the first chance for the AFL to demonstrate exactly what that means in terms of penalties handed out for concussions from 'careless' bumps.

Sam Powell-Pepper is the sacrificial lamb who will be brought to the AFL Tribunal tomorrow morning to demonstrate the new AFL approach.

 

[Scodges]

Players need to go into contests with a duty of care to their teammates and opponents. That trumps winning the ball every time.

Players take steps to avoid hurting opponents at every contest in every game. This isn't new. The bump isn't dead. Every player is constantly taking action to avoid hurting an opponent.

If someone hit Rozee or Butters like SPP hit Keane this thread would be out for blood.

Then why didn’t crows players fly the flag for Keane ?


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[philthy05]

Players need to go into contests with a duty of care to their teammates and opponents. That trumps winning the ball every time.

Players take steps to avoid hurting opponents at every contest in every game. This isn't new. The bump isn't dead. Every player is constantly taking action to avoid hurting an opponent.

If someone hit Rozee or Butters like SPP hit Keane this thread would be out for blood.

Players take steps to avoid hurting opponents when it’s foreseeable.

unforeseeble contact happens all the time.

 

[philthy05]

You’ve **** & feathered SPP in all of your posts. I stand by my post, you have it in for him, or the way he plays the game. If you don’t like the way he plays, which is as Port Adelaide as you can get, then he is nowhere near one of your favourite players.



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I vehemently disagree with el scorcho and his logic on this matter but at no point has anything he’s said been remotely a personal or professional attack on spp.

 

[Festerz]

Jon Ralph says SPP getting 4 weeks is 'fine' for an incident that he states is comparable to incidents that would have received a penalty of just 3 weeks last year

He's wrong btw- they were not comparable. Ralph stating that this DeGoey hit on Elijah Hewett last year is in anyway comparable to the SPP/Keane incident is mindless BS (DeGoey got 3 weeks).



Ralph's done the bidding of the AFL on this pretty well it must be said. He's played his part in raising expectations of the public from a 2-3 weeks suspension towards that 4+ weeks the AFL wants.

Let's see where he and the AFL stand on penalties for other incidents throughout the year. Because if that set of circumstances we saw on Friday is worth 4+ weeks then I look forward to 7+ week suspensions being handed out for incidents where there was clear intent of head impact and there is no other player involved in the collision (like DeGoey's hit on Hewett mentioned earlier) .

 

[El_Scorcho]

Elscorcho answer me this please …


If spp (or any other player) could read play unfolding like that why would any player ever miss getting possession of the ball?

Like if they can judge how play is going to unfold , as you’re adamant spp should have then, shouldn’t they always judge every play correctly?

Or only apply in hindsight to this time?



The reality is most players are running around making “best guess they can” and being wrong. Most contests they get to players don’t even touch the ball as they zig instead of zagging.

There is absolutely naturally going to be errors, which is why you don't put yourself in a situation where getting it wrong means you hit someone hard in the head with your shoulder.

SPP plays close to the edge in this regard and usually gets it right. This time he didn't and we all pay the price.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Players take steps to avoid hurting opponents when it’s foreseeable.

unforeseeble contact happens all the time.

It's hard to argue it's unforeseeable when he's got a clear and open view of the unfolding contest. This is probably where we disagree, fundamentally.

 

[Duck Farmer]

Ralph's done the bidding of the AFL on this pretty well it must be said. He's played his part in raising expectations of the public from a 2-3 weeks suspension towards that 4+ weeks the AFL wants.

It's preseason so the journos are going to ramp up the drama because they've fück all else to talk about.

 

[El_Scorcho]

You’ve **** & feathered SPP in all of your posts. I stand by my post, you have it in for him, or the way he plays the game. If you don’t like the way he plays, which is as Port Adelaide as you can get, then he is nowhere near one of your favourite players.

Embarassing post. Professional sportspeople have repeatedly killed themselves while suffering from CTE.

Go and tell the kids of Shane Tuck or Danny Frawley that you're prepared to cop concussions to players because you want your players to be tough guys.

Go tell Angus Brayshaw that his retirement is a cost of doing business because we want tough guys like Maynard in the game.

SPP isn't knocking out blokes every other week, he knows where the line is and he admits he crossed it.

 

[Ah12]

Id be comfortable with 3 but 4 minimum is a joke. 4 weeks is 1/5 of the playing season. We are way too soft to challenge it but we should. Go the lawyer route like Carlton did and get it to 3 weeks.

He has laid a high bump on a player who is falling to the ground, i understand if you bump you bare the consequences but surely this has to come onto consideration. Its a unique situation.

 

[Festerz]

Then why didn’t crows players fly the flag for Keane ?

The same reason why SPP was not reported by any of the umpires.

You need the benefit of a slow motion replay and a medical report to join the dots to meet the required link between 'careless' action and high/severe impact.

A reminder that there is a limit on the superpowers of elite athletes and officials.

 

[bomberclifford]

Go tell Angus Brayshaw that his retirement is a cost of doing business because we want tough guys like Maynard in the game.

You know this particular thing is the issue, right?
That this is precisely what they actually did do.

 

[Ah12]

Embarassing post. Professional sportspeople have repeatedly killed themselves while suffering from CTE.

Go and tell the kids of Shane Tuck or Danny Frawley that you're prepared to cop concussions to players because you want your players to be tough guys.

Go tell Angus Brayshaw that his retirement is a cost of doing business because we want tough guys like Maynard in the game.

SPP isn't knocking out blokes every other week, he knows where the line is and he admits he crossed it.

This is unrelated to SPP but your post got me thinking. Is it time the AFL starts listing the dangers of the game to players pre match/in contracts. I raced motocross growing up and we were warned that this activity could result in serious injury or death before every race. Is it at the point now that the AFL needs to really drum it into players the dangers of the sport?

The players above and especially the older generation feel they werent protected enough by the AFL and there was obviously a lack of education around the topic at the time.

I understand its full on and if done at the junior levels could drive kids away from the sport but let’s be honest, if you play Footy/AFL long enough you will probably suffer from multiple concussions.

 

[Scodges]

I vehemently disagree with el scorcho and his logic on this matter but at no point has anything he’s said been remotely a personal or professional attack on spp.

I’ve read each & every post in this thread, I’ve called him out cause of his negativity towards SPP. If someone posts something positive, he’ll counter argue , why ?


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