Undervalued Cricketers

[PhatBoy]

I think Shane Watson's biggest problem perception wise was that he and the Australian team believed he had to bat in the top order. If he had batted at 6 in the Test team like he should have as the all rounder for most of his career, I believe he'd have a similar reputation to that of Ben Stokes.

His numbers would be. I don’t think his match impacts would be at the same level.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

I think Shane Watson's biggest problem perception wise was that he and the Australian team believed he had to bat in the top order. If he had batted at 6 in the Test team like he should have as the all rounder for most of his career, I believe he'd have a similar reputation to that of Ben Stokes.

I'll go the other way. He was of most value to the team in the top-order, due to his weaknesses.

He actually struggled more batting lower in the order especially starting against spin with his heavy feet, preferring the pace on the ball and gaps in the field (more catchers) faced when opening. He was easily in the top 6 batsman in the country for most of his career, and when fit arguably in the top 6-10 bowlers too.

But by batting in the top order, the media and general public just couldn't get passed his batting position, to see what he offered the team opening or at 3. They compared him to Ponting/Martyn/Waugh as a batsman, ignoring his all-round ability because he was batting "at 3".

He was also ridiculously unlucky with the review system. I remember reading stats once that something like 80% of his referrals were "umpire's call" (and whilst still given out, would not have cost a review under current rules). His style of 'plonking' his front foot at the line of the ball was obviously like a red rag to a bull to the umpires - his reputation saw him lose any benefit of the doubt in borderline decisions.

 

[corbies]

His numbers would be. I don’t think his match impacts would be at the same level.

Watson certainly a lot more consistent . Could have been our Tamba Bavuma but who can also bowl.

 

[PhatBoy]

Watson certainly a lot more consistent . Could have been our Tamba Bavuma but who can also bowl.

In some respects perhaps. Stokes passes 50 once every 4 innings. Watson passed 50 once every 3.9 innings. With the ball it’s no contest. I’d back Watson to get 20-30 easily over Stokes, so I can see how the consistency thing applies.

 

[footyfan1978]

Mark Waugh.
Never seen a better fielder and he was such a classy bat to watch.

 

[corbies]

I'll go the other way. He was of most value to the team in the top-order, due to his weaknesses.

He actually struggled more batting lower in the order especially starting against spin with his heavy feet, preferring the pace on the ball and gaps in the field (more catchers) faced when opening. He was easily in the top 6 batsman in the country for most of his career, and when fit arguably in the top 6-10 bowlers too.

But by batting in the top order, the media and general public just couldn't get passed his batting position, to see what he offered the team opening or at 3. They compared him to Ponting/Martyn/Waugh as a batsman, ignoring his all-round ability because he was batting "at 3".

He was also ridiculously unlucky with the review system. I remember reading stats once that something like 80% of his referrals were "umpire's call" (and whilst still given out, would not have cost a review under current rules). His style of 'plonking' his front foot at the line of the ball was obviously like a red rag to a bull to the umpires - his reputation saw him lose any benefit of the doubt in borderline decisions.

Fair point which is certainly a valid argument to say it was more valuable to the team to have Watto at the top and a batsman at 6. I suppose my point was more as soon as he started batting in the top order people expected he'd turn out pure batsman numbers rather than all-rounder numbers. Whereas if he batted 6 the public would have been a lot more accepting of his mid-30s average.

 

[footyfan1978]

Gordon Greenidge. Never seen a better opener in my time. Man, could he hit the ball.

 

[footyfan1978]

Imran Khan. Genuine fast bowler that had wicked inswingers. He taught most others after him for Pakistan how to reverse swing with old ball too.

 

[footyfan1978]

Richard Hadlee - Second to only Dennis Lillee in terms of most talented quick bowlers I seen.
What a talent and amazing era of truly great fast bowlers. Hated the arrogant prick too. But he was ****ing good.

 

[footyfan1978]

Damien Fleming 75 wickets @ 25 in tests and 134 wickets @ 25 in one dayers.

Fair record. Would be a god if putting those numbers up atm.

Second best swing bowler in my time of watching that we produced. Only Terry Alderman could trump him as an outswinger but Flemo had a bit more pace than Alderman. Pity injuries and strong era reduced him to so few Tests but I loved watching him bowl. I miss seeing a genuine outswinger. They seem so hard to find now. Stupid ****ing Warney robbed him of a second test hat trick. I think I was angry as Flemo when Warne dropped it.

 

[monty1104]

Damien Martyn - just a really nice batsman to watch. Second only to Lara of the players I’ve seen play (not saying he is second BEST, but just really enjoyable to watch)

Ian Bishop - absolutely fantastic bowler, but always lives in the shadows of Walsh/Ambrose

Saqlain Mushtaq - a finger spinning off spinner in the time where Warne/Murali/Kumble we’re dominating as wrist spinners. Wasn’t as good as those three, but really, no one ever has been or likely will be.

 

[Sproj]

Michael Kasprowicz

Was a sub continent specialist and filled in when one of the top line bowlers of Lee, McGrath and Gillespie were injured.

From memory he gloved the catch to give England that series changing win in 2005 when McGrath was injured.

I met him a few years before that when he was playing for Queensland and he was a ripping bloke, he didn't deserve that sort of ignominy.

Fun fact that may be known,

Kasper did NOT actually glove the ball. Had there been a review system back in those days (and assuming the reviews hadn't been blown), he would have been able to stay in and potentially win that test.

Additionally, Warne's famous 99 against NZ was an uncalled no ball by Vettori I think it was. Warney actually touched his bat down at the other end and he should have a test century to his name.

 

[Scotland]

Phil Jaques. Only played 11 tests but scored 3 100s and 6 50s. Unlucky to be cut down by injury but looked a test quality opener after Langer retired.

Brad Hogg. Most ODI wickets for Australia by any spinner not named Shane Warne. Regularly bowled 10 over economical spells and would pick up important wickets. Batsmen struggled to get after him and many couldn't pick him out of the hand. Would have been a T20I mainstay if he wasn't already 97 years old when it kicked off. Didn't do a lot in his handful of tests over a decade or so but wasn't helped by Ponting's captaincy in his last few. I remember watching him beat the bat a few times against India and then Ponting would set an in out field with no slip. Scored an important 79 in the infamous SCG test, too.

 

[Ishikawa]

Phil Jaques. Only played 11 tests but scored 3 100s and 6 50s. Unlucky to be cut down by injury but looked a test quality opener after Langer retired.

Brad Hogg. Most ODI wickets for Australia by any spinner not named Shane Warne. Regularly bowled 10 over economical spells and would pick up important wickets. Batsmen struggled to get after him and many couldn't pick him out of the hand. Would have been a T20I mainstay if he wasn't already 97 years old when it kicked off. Didn't do a lot in his handful of tests over a decade or so but wasn't helped by Ponting's captaincy in his last few. I remember watching him beat the bat a few times against India and then Ponting would set an in out field with no slip. Scored an important 79 in the infamous SCG test, too.

Hogg was a brilliant ODI bowler, best in the world there for a good period of time. Unfortunately that very aggressive style of bowling didn't lend itself to tests so much (though I do agree Ponting's captaincy of spinners left much to be desired).

On that note, for ODI excellence the reputation Nathan Bracken also suffers unfairly for his lack of impact in test cricket.

EDIT: And yeah good point on Jaques. He wasn't nicknamed Pro for nothing, just a high quality, no-fuss competent run machine who didn't quite get the test career he deserved in between Hayden finishing up and his debilitating injuries.

 

[Scotland]

Hogg was a brilliant ODI bowler, best in the world there for a good period of time. Unfortunately that very aggressive style of bowling didn't lend itself to tests so much (though I do agree Ponting's captaincy of spinners left much to be desired).

On that note, for ODI excellence the reputation Nathan Bracken also suffers unfairly for his lack of impact in test cricket.

Hogg is like Brett Lee, he relished the batsman needing to go after him rather than just seeing him off so did well in ODI cricket. Ponting had Warne for 34 tests after Warne had already played 100 odd so he did his own thing. Ponting was never going to say 'nah I think we need a deep backward square instead of bat pad' to Warne. Once Warne finished up and we had the great spin crisis of the 2000s there was more onus on the captain on how to use the spinner.

Good shout, Andrew G was awesome for us at the 2007 WC also. Bowled swing with the new ball then cutters and cross seamers with the old. Proper limited overs bowler, even though his hair looked ridiculous.

 

[Plugger35]

Imran Khan. Genuine fast bowler that had wicked inswingers. He taught most others after him for Pakistan how to reverse swing with old ball too.

Richard Hadlee - Second to only Dennis Lillee in terms of most talented quick bowlers I seen.
What a talent and amazing era of truly great fast bowlers. Hated the arrogant prick too. But he was ******* good.

I wouldn't say either of these two were undervalued, they were widely regarded as two of the best all rounders of their era and of all time.

 

[ZEV]

Id say Paul Reiffel was fairly underrated. Playing with McDermott, Warne, McGrath, Merv, Gillespie towards the end - they seemed to steal the spotlight a lot and get most of the praise. Reiffel kept one end very tight and became a very handy lower order batsman towards the end of his career.

Has a higher batting average and lower bowling average than Mitchell Marsh...

 

[Scotland]

Marcus North.

Inconsistent enough to be a third Marsh brother but scored 100s in England (Wales), South Africa, NZ and England yet somehow never at home. Averaged 35 with the bat and took 14 wickets @ 42 bowling part time offies and everyone wanted him gone.

 

[The Speaker]

Marcus North.

Inconsistent enough to be a third Marsh brother but scored 100s in England (Wales), South Africa, NZ and England yet somehow never at home. Averaged 35 with the bat and took 14 wickets @ 42 bowling part time offies and everyone wanted him gone.

I didn't!

 

[PhatBoy]

Marcus North.

Inconsistent enough to be a third Marsh brother but scored 100s in England (Wales), South Africa, NZ and England yet somehow never at home. Averaged 35 with the bat and took 14 wickets @ 42 bowling part time offies and everyone wanted him gone.

He scored all but one of his centuries with the side 4-down for less than 200 as well from memory, ie. the point at which the innings is poised to go one of two ways. Very undervalued.

 

[Richard Pryor]

Imran Khan. Genuine fast bowler that had wicked inswingers. He taught most others after him for Pakistan how to reverse swing with old ball too.

Considering he admitted to using ball tampering to do that I'm not sure those after him would want him to have credit for teaching them:

Indeed, the most startling admission so far released concerns a county match between Sussex and Hampshire in 1991. 'The ball was not deviating at all,' Imran is quoted as saying. 'So I got the 12th man to bring on a bottle top and it started to move around a lot. I occasionally scratched the side (of the ball) and lifted the seam.'

This contravenes Law 42.4 (lifting the seam) and 42.5 (changing condition of the ball) but, quite clearly, Imran was not the only Sussex player aware of the illegality of his own actions.

Imran, who took 362 Test wickets, also admits to lifting the seam, a practice he alleges - and with some justification - is rife in England.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...rowing-light-on-a-touchy-subject-1434755.html

 

[Richard Pryor]

Marcus North.

Inconsistent enough to be a third Marsh brother but scored 100s in England (Wales), South Africa, NZ and England yet somehow never at home. Averaged 35 with the bat and took 14 wickets @ 42 bowling part time offies and everyone wanted him gone.

Like Hauritz another victim of playing in the team immediately after the greatest side of all time broke up. Average test numbers which looked terrible compared to what came before, but would be what the current side would be built around (although you couldn't build a lineup around the Marcus North roulette).

 

[Richard Pryor]

I think a lot of the great bats of the 90's/00's who couldn't displace the golden lineup are undervalued compared to Hodge because they didn't whine to the press as much during and after their careers; i.e. Martin Love, Phil Jaques, Stuart Law, Di Venuto.

 

[Scotland]

Roy Park.

1 test in 1921
1 innings, 0 runs
1 over 0/9

 

[Damon_3388]

Peter Siddle - Not the greatest fast bowler to ever represent Australia but never let anyone down at test level and if anything, over-achieved based on his talent but one thing you could never doubt was that when the going got tough, he'd give 110%, even if his 110% was not as good as many others of his generation. That willingness to fight no matter the situation is something I'd love to see some others in this current test side learn. He is a good example of you don't have to be the best to at least give yourself a chance of pulling something from nothing.

214 Test wickets at 30.28, basically on workrate and heart, is worthy of much more respect that it gets. Doesn't make him one of our all-time greatest pace bowlers, but puts him in the company of those second-tier solid servants like Merv Hughes (his spiritual predecessor), Billy McDermott, Geoff Lawson, etc.