Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[mcnulty]

Fertile land, clean water and clean air have always been and always will be the most precious things; particularly in the future we're headed for.

Don’t forget the ivermectin!

 

[GhostofJimJess]

There does seem to be something in dictatorships whereby they consider it better to be seen as incompetent instead of defeated. I recall a doco on the sinking of the Bismark, the surviving crew appeared to regard it as some point of honour that they scuttled themselves before the British sunk them.

You've just nutshelled Trump's modus operandi.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Maybe, but he's trying to do it. Raping and pillaging and all that.

You don't think it matters that dozens if not hundreds of major Western leaders have claimed endlessly that he has - beyond question, always stated as a fact - said he 'wanted Russia's empire back', when he's never said anything remotely like that?

You don't think it feeds into Western public perceptions of him and Russians by extension?

The elected leader of Russia who is also perpetually called a 'dictator?' We might not like their brand of democracy, but any poll of the Russian people by Western aligned NGO's for his entire time in office will tell you that a majority of Russians want him to remain as leader.

Allow me to give you another so much better example of how the West writes its own history and erases Russia's.

Were you taught in school along with the history of the Diggers that Australia has invaded Russia?

Every Russian kid learns all about this shameful chapter in Western force projection just for the heck of it, at Russia's most vulnerable time...





It's a bloody good read, BTW, real jaw-dropping history on nearly every page.

So you tell me, Chief, are we in the West really on top of our Russian history, or do we just selectively choose what we print for the masses...and what we utterly bury?

To this half-arsed historian who is moderately well read, it would seem the 16 countries - including Australia - who went out of their way to try and change the government of Russia at their most vulnerable moment in history to that point, have gone out of their way to pretend to their own people that it never happened.

What do you reckon?

Hands up everyone who knew this happened?

Personally, I think it would have been a nice gesture of peace and goodwill for the 16 countries involved - Australia included - to have commemorated the centenary of the battles back in 2020 with Russia and reflected on the folly of war.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Don’t forget the ivermectin!

And have a good weekend!

[ignore button]

 

[Rayzorwire]

I guess a simple google search would give a well referenced article about Putin’s direct quotes and motivations.

What is Russia's Vladimir Putin planning?

The BBC's Steve Rosenberg looks at what might be on the Russian leader's mind amid growing tensions.

www.bbc.com

It couldn’t be clearer and look at the date of the article. Fascinating. It’s just bad luck Ukraine borders Russia.

Oh, yes, another chopped to bits, mis-translated (don't address the actual post you quote which shows the 'error' in the Western translation, whatever you do), with no link to the original speech, newspaper article, is FAR better source material than the text of the original speech as the Russians themselves translated it.

Why do we as a society even use primary source documents or bother writing long-winded essays and history books, when all the detailed and complex factors we'll ever need to understand literally everything can be detailed right there in the newspaper for us and summarised into a neat 50 word paragraph?

Or even better, a three-word-slogan!

Truly funny stuff.

 

[EagleMan87]

You don't think it matters that dozens if not hundreds of major Western leaders have claimed endlessly that he has - beyond question, always stated as a fact - said he 'wanted Russia's empire back', when he's never said anything remotely like that?

You don't think it feeds into Western public perceptions of him and Russians by extension?

The elected leader of Russia who is also perpetually called a 'dictator?' We might not like their brand of democracy, but any poll of the Russian people by Western aligned NGO's for his entire time in office will tell you that a majority of Russians want him to remain as leader.

Allow me to give you another so much better example of how the West writes its own history and erases Russia's.

Were you taught in school along with the history of the Diggers that Australia has invaded Russia?

Every Russian kid learns all about this shameful chapter in Western force projection just for the heck of it, at Russia's most vulnerable time...

View attachment 1889550
View attachment 1889552

View attachment 1889553
It's a bloody good read, BTW, real jaw-dropping history on nearly every page.

So you tell me, Chief, are we in the West really on top of our Russian history, or do we just selectively choose what we print for the masses...and what we utterly bury?

To this half-arsed historian who is moderately well read, it would seem the 16 countries - including Australia - who went out of their way to try and change the government of Russia at their most vulnerable moment in history to that point, have gone out of their way to pretend to their own people that it never happened.

What do you reckon?

Hands up everyone who knew this happened?

Personally, I think it would have been a nice gesture of peace and goodwill for the 16 countries involved - Australia included - to have commemorated the centenary of the battles back in 2020 with Russia and reflected on the folly of war.

You're kidding, right? The Entente powers were helping the former Russian government - with whom they had just fought against the Central Powers for the majority of 1917. Y'know, their ally.

Granted, it was also to nip the new Communist nation in the bud, but it definitely wasn't for the heck of it.

 

[Rayzorwire]

You're kidding, right? The Entente powers were helping the former Russian government - with whom they had just fought against the Central Powers for the majority of 1917. Y'know, their ally.

Granted, it was also to nip the new Communist nation in the bud, but it definitely wasn't for the heck of it.

Have to wonder how far into it you got before you started typing?

From the intro to the book (which I posted above in what you quoted):

By the time the Allies arrived in force, in the summer of 1918, two dozen different so-called governments functioned on the territory of the former Russian Empire.
...
Though by end the Allies concentrated their support on a spin-off from the old tsarist army, initially they were happy to partner with whatever forces came to hand. At different times and places, Intervention troops fought alongside Red Russians against White Finns; with Germans, White Russians and national Balts against Red Russians and Red Balts; with Armenian socialists against Turks and Azeris; with White Russians against national Ukrainians; and with Poles against national Ukrainians and Red Russians – and this far from exhausts the list. The fighting itself was equally confusing. All the armies involved were small and weak, so that towns changed hands with dizzying frequency. Troops deserted en masse to the enemy and back again; civilians were indistinguishable from fighters; and individuals and propaganda materials freely crossed vague, ever-changing front lines.


The 'Allies' fought alongside the Bolsheviks against Finns when it suited their 'boys own adventure' expedition, plus for and against whoever else came to hand when it suited them.

Trust me, if you read it, there's absolutely no sense of clear mission or clear loyalties behind any of the 'strategies' from beginning to disastrous end.

It's an impeccably researched and footnoted historical work by a very competent historian; you (or anyone else) are, of course, most welcome to challenge it with alternate evidence.

 

[EagleMan87]

Have to wonder how far into it you got before you started typing?

From the intro to the book (which I posted above in what you quoted):

By the time the Allies arrived in force, in the summer of 1918, two dozen different so-called governments functioned on the territory of the former Russian Empire.
...
Though by end the Allies concentrated their support on a spin-off from the old tsarist army, initially they were happy to partner with whatever forces came to hand. At different times and places, Intervention troops fought alongside Red Russians against White Finns; with Germans, White Russians and national Balts against Red Russians and Red Balts; with Armenian socialists against Turks and Azeris; with White Russians against national Ukrainians; and with Poles against national Ukrainians and Red Russians – and this far from exhausts the list. The fighting itself was equally confusing. All the armies involved were small and weak, so that towns changed hands with dizzying frequency. Troops deserted en masse to the enemy and back again; civilians were indistinguishable from fighters; and individuals and propaganda materials freely crossed vague, ever-changing front lines.


The 'Allies' fought alongside the Bolsheviks against Finns when it suited their 'boys own adventure' expedition, plus for and against whoever else came to hand when it suited them.

Trust me, if you read it, there's absolutely no sense of clear mission or clear loyalties behind any of the 'strategies' from beginning to disastrous end.

It's an impeccably researched and footnoted historical work by a very competent historian; you (or anyone else) are, of course, most welcome to challenge it with alternate evidence.

I'll add it to the list.

 

[mcnulty]

Wow. The Russian Revolution…that’s some deflection.

It’s the same bullshit sophistry he’s tried elsewhere. Don’t fall for it.

 

[Rayzorwire]

I'll add it to the list.

LOL...I know what you mean...so many books, so few years on earth to read even a fraction of them!

 

[Smeg Head]

I'd fully support Crimea being independent again, they deserve that - as do the Tatars to have a much bigger say in the future of the region than they have since their forced removal.

So you would also support the dissolution of the Russian Federation into constituent countries for all the different ethnic groups then I assume.

 

[Visions]

Another case of Russia not wanting to accept Ukrainian success with offensive action. Looks like accidents are back in vogue again!

I suppose Ukraine can thank its lucky stars that the Russians intercepted it so that it then hit its target!

 

[Rayzorwire]

So you would also support the dissolution of the Russian Federation into constituent countries for all the different ethnic groups then I assume.

Crimea as an independent Oblast (State), not country.

Very different thing. FWIW, One of the reasons the current Israeli government doesn't want Palestine becoming a country officially is that once they do, an entirely different set of laws and rights (not to mention customs) applies.

Broadly speaking, I support as much self-governance for states within federations as they see fit.

 

[Mobbs]

Crimea as an independent Oblast (State), not country.

Very different thing. FWIW, One of the reasons the current Israeli government doesn't want Palestine becoming a country officially is that once they do, an entirely different set of laws and rights (not to mention customs) applies.

Broadly speaking, I support as much self-governance for states within federations as they see fit.

Crimea is actually an independent (or autonomous) republic, not an oblast. The concept of an autonomous oblast is a little different, has only been utilised (from my memory) once but this was to collect a culture together, not to provide an existing culture with autonomy - and was a remote spot which never had nor gained much population/development.

The references to "republics" (DPR, LPR, Crimea) are contested outside of Russia, as the actual independence seems to fall very short of what the term defines. Under Russian control, the straight up term of oblast is more accurate, as it operates by no means independent of Russian control - and local cultural input is pretty much non-existent. (You could argue "Krai: is even more appropriate due to its verging on the far reaches, but the terms have melded over the years).

The intention of naming Crimea a republic could still be transferrable in stated intent from that of Ukraine's Autonomous Oblast of Ukraine. I believe in both cases, Sevastopol is distinct from the remainder of Crimea (definitely in case of Ukraine, unsure in case of RF).

 

[Dirty Bird]

Except their was no civil war. The invader was Russia. Clear evidence of this the Russian military shooting down MH17 from within Ukraine. SAMs simply are not owned or operated by rebel groups.

Ukraine have been fighting Russia since 2014 in Ukraine. DPR/LPR are simply another branch of the Russian government.

When I was in Ukraine in 2016, near the Great Patriotic War museum in Kyiv, they had a display of captured equipment from the Donbas. Obvious proper military equipment, and it wasn't Ukrainian. Obvious as hell it was Russian.

 

[CD Xbow]

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are creating joint defensive fortifications to keep those fun loving Russians out. I don't know how much each country is at risk of Russian grey zone tactics (eg little green men) because this could undermine the utility of such fortifications. I think it is wise to include Belarus in this.

Baltics To Build Joint Fortifications Along Russian, Belarus Borders

 

[Sir_Loin]

Oh, yes, another chopped to bits, mis-translated (don't address the actual post you quote which shows the 'error' in the Western translation, whatever you do), with no link to the original speech, newspaper article, is FAR better source material than the text of the original speech as the Russians themselves translated it.

Why do we as a society even use primary source documents or bother writing long-winded essays and history books, when all the detailed and complex factors we'll ever need to understand literally everything can be detailed right there in the newspaper for us and summarised into a neat 50 word paragraph?

Or even better, a three-word-slogan!

Truly funny stuff.

Oh yeah that left leaning BBC reporter that reports from Moscow doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

So you’re a Russian speaker as well now? Jesus man you’re so talented in terms of research and world languages. What are you doing on BF?

 

[Cap]

You don't think it matters that dozens if not hundreds of major Western leaders have claimed endlessly that he has - beyond question, always stated as a fact - said he 'wanted Russia's empire back', when he's never said anything remotely like that?

You don't think it feeds into Western public perceptions of him and Russians by extension?

The elected leader of Russia who is also perpetually called a 'dictator?' We might not like their brand of democracy, but any poll of the Russian people by Western aligned NGO's for his entire time in office will tell you that a majority of Russians want him to remain as leader.

Allow me to give you another so much better example of how the West writes its own history and erases Russia's.

Were you taught in school along with the history of the Diggers that Australia has invaded Russia?

Every Russian kid learns all about this shameful chapter in Western force projection just for the heck of it, at Russia's most vulnerable time...

View attachment 1889550
View attachment 1889552

View attachment 1889553
It's a bloody good read, BTW, real jaw-dropping history on nearly every page.

So you tell me, Chief, are we in the West really on top of our Russian history, or do we just selectively choose what we print for the masses...and what we utterly bury?

To this half-arsed historian who is moderately well read, it would seem the 16 countries - including Australia - who went out of their way to try and change the government of Russia at their most vulnerable moment in history to that point, have gone out of their way to pretend to their own people that it never happened.

What do you reckon?

Hands up everyone who knew this happened?

Personally, I think it would have been a nice gesture of peace and goodwill for the 16 countries involved - Australia included - to have commemorated the centenary of the battles back in 2020 with Russia and reflected on the folly of war.

Full credit for the most wacky take.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

As Reid notes, Putin is the real inheritor of the White Russian legacy. He shares the same vaulting imperial mindset and addiction to violence. Like the Whites, he is contemptuous of Ukrainians and other non-Russian peoples. In 2005 Putin arranged for Denikin’s remains to be taken from the US and reburied in a Moscow monastery. Reid is cautiously optimistic Ukraine will prevail. “This time, the cause is both good and viable. Resolve seems set to stay strong,” she writes. Let’s hope she is right.

Interesting note from the Author though.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Full credit for the most wacky take.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Interesting note from the Author though.

I wish I had a cherry farm. This guy would be my chief cherry picker. Clearly does not read the shite he posts.

 

[Hamingja]

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are creating joint defensive fortifications to keep those fun loving Russians out. I don't know how much each country is at risk of Russian grey zone tactics (eg little green men) because this could undermine the utility of such fortifications. I think is wise to include Belarus in this.

Baltics To Build Joint Fortifications Along Russian, Belarus Borders

If the west stop supporting Ukraine and Russia ever break through the lines, the best thing Poland and the Baltic countries could do is enter Ukraine immediately and wipe the Russians out when they are depleted and before they had a chance to dig in.

 

[Cap]

I wish I had a cherry farm. This guy would be my chief cherry picker. Clearly does not read the shite he posts.

Most nutters don't.

They see something they like and post it.

 

[Aussie in exile]

If the west stop supporting Ukraine and Russia ever break through the lines, the best thing Poland and the Baltic countries could do is enter Ukraine immediately and wipe the Russians out when they are depleted and before they had a chance to dig in.

That's why i keep sayin that countries that border Russia should blow up road and rail bridges that lead to their borders.

 

[Baldur]

That's why i keep sayin that countries that border Russia should blow up road and rail bridges that lead to their borders.

Finland has already closed its border crossings, would not be surprised if engineers are preparing bridges etc for demo charges.

 

[Millky95]

Pre war, one of the guys was a teacher and the other a motorbike engenieer.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Finland has already closed its border crossings, would not be surprised if engineers are preparing bridges etc for demo charges.

The Finns have been integrating their defensive strategy with the west for years. Now it’s formal. Well done Russia, the grand master 4D chess champions.