Analysis Was the inaugural WCE team a state team?

[8732watitdo]

I was born in the early 90's so I don't know much about this topic. On this forum whenever our 92 and 94 premiership is brought up, there's always someone who says that we were 'essentially a state team'. I was wondering if anyone could clarify this, maybe a link to a video of our history or an article.
There is this one on the team site that has only mentions it.
http://www.westcoasteagles.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/7155/newsid/144065/default.aspx
"Some would say it was a state team. But that, it definitely was not. For surely, if it was a state team, one of the first to be selected would be the man who captained Geelong on that day, a young man from Lake Grace, by the name of Mark “Toby” Bairstow. And there was a long list of others, enticed to VFL clubs in the months before the birth of West Coast.

We could start with Darren Bewick, Craig Starcevich, Michael Christian, Nicky Winmar, Peter Sartori and Michael Mitchell, but there were many more who would have been inaugural West Coast Eagles had they not been convinced that this franchise would never get off the ground. But that’s another story...."

 

[Ochre]

Quinz

 

[Galileo9]

to other fans, essentially state team = 'not really, but i cant be bothered acknowledging that as it doesnt suit my eagles bashing'

in reality its envy. in reality we were born due to the will of WA football to represent the state in VFL. franchise my ass.

 

[nic nat toe]

I am also too young, but I have seen it here on the board. What I did notice is that we only really had West Aussies playing at that time.

 

[nic nat toe]

I am also too young, but I have seen it here on the board. What I did notice is that we only really had West Aussies playing at that time.

But only victorian give a shit anyway!

 

[sTeeL]

Question best left to Victorians to whinge about.

 

[WCE_phil]

No. End thread.

 

[The Dodger]

Pretty much were. I mean when the SOO games were happening back in the early 90's it pretty much was the Eagles with a handful of other players such as Bewick.
However when we started up I doubt there was a lot of Victorian players willing to come over and play for us. So it really was probably only going to be WA boys that represented us.
Then they turned out to be good so it was unfair. Boo hoo. As it was this year I doubt there was much complaining before we started really winning.
When WA based Freo fans bring up the argument I just ask what it was about seeing the best WA talent playing in the same team that they found so repulsive?

 

[placebo]

Quinz and others have done good jobs at debunking in the past but the absolute best debunking was from E87. He used to link his post whenever the topic came up. Hopefully someone can find it.

 

[The_Reaper]

If by state team you mean we represented the state of Western Australia at VFL/AFL level then we were a state team and still are a state team.

We weren't and never have being the state team though - otherwise we'd be black and gold and be known as the sandgropers.

 

[QS]

Even if we were it was offset by the fact in the early days it was very vic-centric even more so than now by 10 fold. Most bigfooty trolls were probably too young anyway so they are just parroting rubbish.

 

[tesseract]

*Post courtesy of Eagle87

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession )

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!

 

[The Dodger]

*Post courtesy of Eagle87

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Yeah that is a good post.
So the state side crying would have only come about when we started winning in earnest 1990+.
Which is because we took good WA talent and developed it.

 

[Marlin01]

The biggest single reason we dominated early 90s was physical conditioning. We were miles ahead of other teams at the time.

 

[8732watitdo]

*Post courtesy of Eagle87

A WA state side?

Thanks, that's a very comprehensive answer. I can't believe the quality of players that we drafted with such late picks.

 

[Kwality]

If it were a state side, Winmar & Bewick would have got a gig - they didnt, it wasnt anything like a state side.

As a Melbourne resident I can tell you for Victorians its difficult to understand the original 1987 squad was very different to the 1992 premiership squad, so on goes the claim - just ignorant.

 

[TheGhostOfJohnBelushi]

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

This is the best part. We were never a state side. Yes, we had almost exclusively West Aussies, but the other clubs poached all the proven talent, which forced us to identify young talent, which is the formula for success today... identify who will be a good player, not who is, and develop them.

Take a look at some of the drafts from the late 80s/early 90s. Eagles absolutely schooled the rest of the comp.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Quinz has a template of an absolute belting answer to this, essentially it's a no.

 

[larrikin]

We also did a reasonable job of "hiding" some guys which you could do back then due to the amateur nature of drafting as E87 suggested.

 

[Eagle87]

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession )

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!

Some typos but decent effort

To add to Larri's comment the 1989 Draft was amazing for the inability of other sides to properly scout talent.

The non West Coast WA picks (every side got 1 WA pick allowance, except West Coast):

5. Brad Rowe (Bri)
6. Mark Brayshaw (NM)
7. Stephen Edgar (Carl)
8. Brad Tunbridge (Sydney)
9. Dale Kickett (Fitzroy)
14. Ben Allan (Hawthorn)
38. Gavin Rose (Collingwood)
39. Peter Cransberg (Essendon)
48. Dennis Repacholi (West Perth)
49. Greg Jones (St Kilda)


West Coast picked:

Peter Matera at 4
Dean Irving at 50
Tony Evans at 64
Stephen Schwerdt at 78
Brett Heady at 92

We got Ash McIntosh under Father/Son and we got Dean Kemp as a post draft compensation pick (I.e the leftovers) .

We traded our picks 18 and 32 (from memory) for Peter Wilson.

So (of substance) we added:
Matera, Kemp, Heady, Evans, Wilson & McIntosh in a single draft/trade period. That's 1/3 of the starting 18 in 2 premiership teams in a single draft period. Including 2 Norm Smith medallists. It's our finest ever draft period.

 

[Rids]

Brilliant answer E87 ... went back and looked at every pick in the 1989 draft - sensational, would be hard pressed to find another draft in history where one side so comprehensively "won" the draft.

 

[Quinz]

So (of substance) we added:
Matera, Kemp, Heady, Evans, Wilson & McIntosh in a single draft/trade period. That's 1/3 of the starting 18 in 2 premiership teams in a single draft period. Including 2 Norm Smith medallists. It's our finest ever draft period.

Without doubt, nothing else comes close. As you say, even though some of those players we picked with our last few picks because the other teams had taken their allocation of WA players, they were still available to every other side. And some sides chose not to take a WA player at all.

Because we had a restricted list early on (I think it was 35 vs 53 for the rest) we were given zone and post draft selections later to bring our list numbers up in line with the rest of the competition. As it turned out, that was a huge advantage for us because we absolutely smashed those picks, so despite the VFL attempting to stop us dominating early they inadvertently assisted it

The inaugural selections were solid, but if we'd had free reign to choose from all the WAFL sides ( rather than the max of 5 ffrom any 1 team) and the huge number of players who were poached before the October '86 restrictions began...

We were also lucky to start at a time when the WAFL had a huge amount of existing and emerging talent, compared to when Freo started. Also, from what people say Mick Malthouse was a huge factor in the 90s dominance and our training and fitness programs were a clear leader in the competition.

 

[Public Enemy No1]

Only a state team to the ignorant and bitter

 

[Smotie]

Outstanding post.

 

[Chris who]

The biggest single reason we dominated early 90s was physical conditioning. We were miles ahead of other teams at the time.

ROIDS!