We Don't Need New Players

[RegHickeyStand]

Yeah, we will have turn over. Lets keep it mainly to draft picks this year.

Heard Nathan Buckley say that they made it to the prelim with basically the same side as the last couple of years. He said as coach it has been a revelation to see them slowly meld together this past couple of seasons.

Huh!!!

What?!

Mr Superstar-from-somewhere-else didn't come along and save them?!?!?

Collingwood didn't change captains. They topped up moderately. And they have had a big core of players that has played together for some time.

Amazing. Doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[FredLeDeux]

Yeah, we will have turn over. Lets keep it mainly to draft picks this year.

Heard Nathan Buckley say that they made it to the prelim with basically the same side as the last couple of years. He said as coach it has been a revelation to see them slowly meld together this past couple of seasons.

Huh!!!

What?!

Mr Superstar-from-somewhere-else didn't come along and save them?!?!?

Collingwood didn't change captains. They topped up moderately. And they have had a big core of players that has played together for some time.

Amazing. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Collingwood has 11 players on its list from other AFL clubs; before this week Geelong had 9 (including Ablett), and now has 7.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Collingwood has 11 players on its list from other AFL clubs; before this week Geelong had 9 (including Ablett), and now has 7.

So?

I quoted figjam saying the biggest thing was the team has settled. Not where they came from originally. For instance Varcoe has been there a few years now.

 

[Nickoo]

Might be interesting to see clubs like melbourne and richmond just how many are from other clubs; Rich has a few definitely.

So the list isn't so much the problem its the coaching? or the melding?

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Might be interesting to see clubs like melbourne and richmond just how many are from other clubs; Rich has a few definitely.

So the list isn't so much the problem its the coaching? or the melding?

The melding, I think.

 

[FredLeDeux]

So?

I quoted figjam saying the biggest thing was the team has settled. Not where they came from originally. For instance Varcoe has been there a few years now.

You said they topped up moderately; I assumed you were comparing them with Geelong, which has done much less in the way of topping up.
I might add that Collingwood would have done much more topping up with high-level players if they hadn't got so many knockbacks.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

You said they topped up moderately; I assumed you were comparing them with Geelong, which has done much less in the way of topping up.
I might add that Collingwood would have done much more topping up with high-level players if they hadn't got so many knockbacks.

I just checked their team and its right: they have remained pretty stable since the start of 2016. Adam Trelor was included then, and that would be the last big name player.

 

[romeohwho]

Might be interesting to see clubs like melbourne and richmond just how many are from other clubs; Rich has a few definitely.

So the list isn't so much the problem its the coaching? or the melding?

Also interesting to count up how many high draft picks those 2 clubs have. We need a few round 1 picks- a couple of young guys in top 10 would help.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Collingwood has had a large amount of talent for a while. Never really put it together I wasn't a huge fan of Buckley but the forward line and manic pressure reminds me of 2012 pies a little bit. This year he has done well.

Pendlebury, Sidebottom Grundy, DeGoey, Goldsack, Stephenson, Phillips, Cox, Mihocek, Thomas, Maynard, Langdon, Sier

That are home grown so to speak

Treloar ( Trade Gws )
Adam's ( Trade Gws )
Howe ( Melbourne )
Aish ( Brisbane )
Crisp ( Brisbane )
Mayne ( Fremantle )
Hosking E ( GWS )
Greenwood ( North )
Varcoe ( Geelong)

It's a real mix and match you can throw wells into the list. What they have done really well is get a superstar out of the draft Grundy and picked up treloar and Adam's quite young. Throw DeGoey and Stepehenson, Phillips in as potential stars it gives them a core for the future.

Jamie Elliot, Darcy Moore, scharenberg, Ben Reid, Fasolo all guys who if available may have played.

Think it shows that they have missed the 8 multiple seasons and Derek Hine has shown a track record of being able to draft with pieces.

When it relates to geelong we have recruited differently and preferenced experienced heads and bodies over youth. And it probably shows up in the bottom half of your list. The fluctuations of 16th the 22nd player. And how injuries to not even key players but depth players can turn geelongs 22 into a bottom of the 8 outfit.

The worry for me is you say cohesion the side that played in the final is very experienced and has played multiple seasons together. Your always going to have a few new faces just the reality of attempted improvement.

Bews Hendo Kolo
Tuohy Taylor Stewart
Blicavs Selwood Selwood
Menegola Ablett Kelly
Parfitt Hawkins Henry

Abbott Danger Duncan

Menzel, Murdoch, Guthrie, MOC

Westcoast, Melbourne, Collingwood have changed the lineups this season considerably more than geelong in terms of finals make ups.

I think this group needs to be changed not stuck with cohesion or experience really isnt an issue on paper Talent is a problem with age.

Need to draft develop and then extremely vigilant in the age profile they target with free agents. I had this problem two seasons ago with the age profiles being brought in it needs to change going forward.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Might be interesting to see clubs like melbourne and richmond just how many are from other clubs; Rich has a few definitely.

So the list isn't so much the problem its the coaching? or the melding?

Richmonds and Melbourne are basically home grown but they have just operated with a lot more draft picks.

Being outside the 8 same with Collingwood.

Richmond

Houli, Prestia, Caddy, Grigg, Nankervis

Melbourne

Tyson, Melksham, Lewis, Hibberd,

Frost perhaps cant remember

Probably missing 1 or two that's just best 22 from finals. Richmond surprisingly of recent times has drafted really well.

That's what you notice about all these sides. Difficult to change when you don't have picks but also we haven't tried very hard to go down that path.

 

[catempire]

Collingwood has 11 players on its list from other AFL clubs; before this week Geelong had 9 (including Ablett), and now has 7.

You not up to date with the principle of non-core mercenaries Fred??

 

[Claude Balls]

Pies have traded in plenty of players, it’s just that the best of them were still young.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Pies have traded in plenty of players, it’s just that the best of them were still young.

My point was allowing the team to settle. Posters counting up the total players coming in are missing the point.

We are looking toward getting in new players to "solve" the problems. Here we have a coach who says the opposite.

 

[you pick one]

Yes we do is the short response.
Why
We are pedestrian in terms of today's footy,slow down back, slow in the midfield, slow up forward and slow to spreed,we have one ruck who could easily revert to s**t,and one forward thank God for Tom,we tackle poorly,kick poorly,hand ball our team mates into trouble and generally make poor decisions on and off the field in short we are further off the pace than a top 8 finish this year indicates, the top 4 are in another post code.Hard decisions need to be made.We are closer to our last premiership than our next right now and the challenge is to reverse that trend.
Can't wait for the clubs analysis.We know what the problems are and we will address them over the off season,for obvious reasons we don't want to discuss them in public.Book mark this as their responce.

 

[00VicWard001]

You said they topped up moderately; I assumed you were comparing them with Geelong, which has done much less in the way of topping up.
I might add that Collingwood would have done much more topping up with high-level players if they hadn't got so many knockbacks.

Sometimes it’s an unpredictable and random outcome.

Hawthorn topped up with Brian Lake to play full back and he was instrumental in their successes.

In hindsight Buckley can say it was all about ‘melding’. But the fact is that they have a lot of the key structural components that we are missing that allowed his team to actually employ trained tactics. Small forwards to pressure and a ruckman to assist the midfield. Also, their draw wasn’t too bad either - finishing outside of the top 8.

There are a thousand variables and you can be guaranteed that Buckley will pretty much pick anything that points out that being ‘stable’ was the best option - as this is what will help him keep his job and justify Eddy backing him when he should have been fired (based on all available evidence from last season). The only thing that saved him last year was that Eddy loves him (extreme nepotism) - because he had a terrible record for the last 7 years.

Even their win against GWS, a lot went right for them on the night, including that GWS had some significant injuries to key players. Have Scully, Patton, Shaw and Kelly in that team and GWS would have trounced the Pies. The start of the last quarter was a complete lapse of concentration and defensive focus that and the very poor start to the game was what lost that match.

Collingwood are doing well, but it is not just because of Melding. Hawthorn and Sydney have also spent a year melding and so did Geelong with no significant players traded in at the end of 2017 (we went to the draft) and we all got knocked out.

Adding to this - trading or drafting - new players are still coming into the team. Trading means they are experienced and can slot into the system fast. Drafting generally means that they are quite unready through fitness and understanding the tactics expected in a elite high level team sport.

The black and white truth is that without our missing components (effective ruck and small forwards) available to immediately impact the side from 2019 by successfully implementing and executing our gameplan (whether from trading, drafting, current player improvement or players no longer being injured) we will remain in the same situation.

 

[Claude Balls]

My point was allowing the team to settle. Posters counting up the total players coming in are missing the point.

We are looking toward getting in new players to "solve" the problems. Here we have a coach who says the opposite.

That’s fair enough, but the thread title is ‘we don’t need new players’, which renders the Collingwood example an odd one for two reasons:

1. They have brought in lots of new players from other clubs. It’s that they brought them in younger and they developed there that counts.

2. The players they have brought in (along with those from the draft - Grundy, De Goey) are collectively more talented than the ones we brought in. You’re implying that we need only allow our less talented players time to gel and we’ll get the same result.

 

[00VicWard001]

Also interesting to count up how many high draft picks those 2 clubs have. We need a few round 1 picks- a couple of young guys in top 10 would help.

Interestingly, if you revisited the 2017 draft objectively - based on immediate impact to the team - I’d say Kelly (not withstanding his age) would be arguably the number 1 draft pick.

Likewise Stewart would be a top 15 pick.

Drafting the right mature aged player around they pick 20-40 mark, with a view to a 3-5 year impact and continually refreshing in this period is definitely the the third option as well. It’s potentially more palatable than bringing in an untried 18 year old at pick 10 or trading in a 28 year old in the downward slope of his career for pick 10...

We always give preference to young draftees who have nothing but potential - and most don’t really end up doing much - or AFL players who have been in the system for years.

The State League has some players who are just a little bit off AFL level (especially if they get access to full time professional club support) and who are physically ready to play and probably have even more desire than draftees.

This goldmine is every bit as viable.

The percentages of success would be similar if recruiters had a similar mentality or had a separate state league draft going on.

Obviously Stephen Wells does not want this - especially obvious when Scott complained about the fact the AFL may be giving GC and Carlton priority access to these players - as this has been his new frontier for several years.

 

[you pick one]

Collingwood have done f--king nothing yet.Cool the jets peeps.

 

[Max Milburn]

Collingwood had faith in their coach at a time when many, many within and without were calling for his head.
As for not bringing in new players, we have already delisted players who need replacing.

 

[Turbocat]

Yeah, we will have turn over. Lets keep it mainly to draft picks this year.

Heard Nathan Buckley say that they made it to the prelim with basically the same side as the last couple of years. He said as coach it has been a revelation to see them slowly meld together this past couple of seasons.

Huh!!!

What?!

Mr Superstar-from-somewhere-else didn't come along and save them?!?!?

Collingwood didn't change captains. They topped up moderately. And they have had a big core of players that has played together for some time.

Amazing. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Not the first example of a coach that was on the verge of being turfed .. and perhaps he had this one season to do what they have. He has been lucky to have Eddie.

I basically agree on draft.. due to the age of our players who are the key drivers in our side... can any one see us trading in our next Capt , our next kpf etc. we need to have some walk it back. Port obvious has decided to do a quick reverse. They are now want access to this draft. So many SA boys that are high end. We have no advantage like that at draft..only at trade.. yet looking at our drafted players..mostly they stay. Its not so bad once you are here. Id even consider , like Port walking back a bit , take a step back so that we can take two or three forward. It only has to be a year or two. Not one of the players we have been linked to in trade are any more ..than periphery. Sure good additions.. Dahl is FA.. OK. What do they other cost us.. if minimal fine. but Steven was never going to be less than another draft drought. He would cost our R1.. for a 29 year old player

Sydney , Haw and Geelong will be having some hard looks at where they are. We need a plan to add future leadership. We need a plan to add quality talls .. and I have not seen us linked to anything of that. Its like being visited by the ghost of Christmas Past. Are we really of the mindset.. that if we run out of fuel , that the answer is to just add more fuel? Has the tank got a hole in it? Does the engine need a tune?. Does the driver need to adjust the way he uses the car... nope just woops add more fuel. This review should have happened in 2016. The Sydney final was definitive for mine.

So if the rumoured trade of Kelly or a Duncan etc gives us access to some early talent .. Id applaud the club for being brave. You can have way too much draft.. Gold Coast looks like they will have way too many picks.. but we are at the other end of it. Its been a long time since we have really gone hard at it. Maybe 2006 was the last time we added 2 R1 picks? (Selwood and Hawkins) 2016 draft does look good but mostly its Jack and the Beanstalk stuff again.. trying to find champs from 3 or 4 magic beans..

Id say we do need new players.. we just don't need anymore second hand ones.

 

[romeohwho]

Interestingly, if you revisited the 2017 draft objectively - based on immediate impact to the team - I’d say Kelly (not withstanding his age) would be arguably the number 1 draft pick.

Likewise Stewart would be a top 15 pick.

Drafting the right mature aged player around they pick 20-40 mark, with a view to a 3-5 year impact and continually refreshing in this period is definitely the the third option as well. It’s potentially more palatable than bringing in an untried 18 year old at pick 10 or trading in a 28 year old in the downward slope of his career for pick 10...

We always give preference to young draftees who have nothing but potential - and most don’t really end up doing much - or AFL players who have been in the system for years.

The State League has some players who are just a little bit off AFL level (especially if they get access to full time professional club support) and who are physically ready to play and probably have even more desire than draftees.

This goldmine is every bit as viable.

The percentages of success would be similar if recruiters had a similar mentality or had a separate state league draft going on.

Obviously Stephen Wells does not want this - especially obvious when Scott complained about the fact the AFL may be giving GC and Carlton priority access to these players - as this has been his new frontier for several years.

Yep, it’s food for thought isn’t it? Am not discontented with the strategy we have been trying. Worth a go and we have actually had a fair bit of success, just not the ultimate. And am happy with some of our pick ups in the last 2 years but we might have botched a few prior to that.
I guess it’s a matter of getting the right players and the right balance. Which we aren’t quite at? The dogs ( in 2016) , tigers, dees have a pretty good mix of experience and numerous young guns who were high draft picks, in varying quantities, and making important contributions. They bring a good energy and are not intimidated or play with the fearlessness of being young or something. That sort of confidence is important, especially if you re good enough to back it up.
We haven’t had high calibre young draft picks for so long and I can only see them as a good addition. But I can’t see any current older gun it’s worth the risk to give up. Still am looking forward to seeing how our current batch of youngsters comes along. Your point re state league is an interesting one.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

The melding, I think.

It's one of the reasons I was shitty when they broke up the backline with the returns of Taylor and Henderson.

 

[Pollywaffle]

We are pedestrian in terms of today's footy,slow down back, slow in the midfield, slow up forward and slow to spreed,we have one ruck who could easily revert to s**t,and one forward thank God for Tom,we tackle poorly,kick poorly,hand ball our team mates into trouble and generally make poor decisions on and off the field in short we are further off the pace than a top 8 finish this year indicates, the top 4 are in another post code.Hard decisions need to be made.We are closer to our last premiership than our next right now and the challenge is to reverse that trend.

So, other than that, we are OK?

 

[Sttew]

My point was allowing the team to settle. Posters counting up the total players coming in are missing the point.

We are looking toward getting in new players to "solve" the problems. Here we have a coach who says the opposite.

Geelong's success in 07 was off the back of a young settled team finally "melding". It happens if you have the quality. Geelong currently hasn't, and has topped up with experienced players a la Hawthorn (a club that has won premierships using this formula)

Bucks hasn't won a premiership yet.

 

[romeohwho]

Interestingly, if you revisited the 2017 draft objectively - based on immediate impact to the team - I’d say Kelly (not withstanding his age) would be arguably the number 1 draft pick.

Likewise Stewart would be a top 15 pick.

Drafting the right mature aged player around they pick 20-40 mark, with a view to a 3-5 year impact and continually refreshing in this period is definitely the the third option as well. It’s potentially more palatable than bringing in an untried 18 year old at pick 10 or trading in a 28 year old in the downward slope of his career for pick 10...

We always give preference to young draftees who have nothing but potential - and most don’t really end up doing much - or AFL players who have been in the system for years.

The State League has some players who are just a little bit off AFL level (especially if they get access to full time professional club support) and who are physically ready to play and probably have even more desire than draftees.

This goldmine is every bit as viable.

The percentages of success would be similar if recruiters had a similar mentality or had a separate state league draft going on.

Obviously Stephen Wells does not want this - especially obvious when Scott complained about the fact the AFL may be giving GC and Carlton priority access to these players - as this has been his new frontier for several years.

Gibbons from Williamstown is pretty good but I guess we don’t need another mid like him.