- Banned
- #26
Does passing away make him a better coach?
West Coast and Fremantle, why the difference?
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Mr Fonebone
Club Legend
Agree with this although a good start re concessions would have made all the difference IMO.
Mind you I don't begrudge the Eagles their success, they are a well run organisation that made the right choices with regards to coaches in particular.
One day the stars will align for Freo and they will get their flag. I just hope I am still around to see it.
Maybe next year.
- Jun 22, 2008
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I've told this story on here before in other threads, but a bloke I worked with a few years ago was a mental Freo supporter, we were back to back, I hated talking footy with him. Freo might have had a good win on the weekend but his first hour would be spent having a crack at the Eagles, for anything that popped into his head.
I asked him one day, straight up, would you rather Freo win a premiership or West Coast make the grand final and get beaten. He actually thought about it before answering. He eventually answered with Freo winning a flag but I think it was a pretty close run race.
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Freo were set up from the start to try and be a point of difference from the Eagles. Basically the opposite of us.
The opposite of a well run, professional, successful club is?
The opposite of a well run, professional, successful club is?
- Banned
- #30
I'm not sure what it's like for WC fans living in Perth but I can honestly say I wouldn't give Freo a second thought outside of the two games a year we play against them. It's not much of a rivalry when only one side thinks it's a rivalry.
*Post courtesy of Eagle87
A WA state side?
In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.
Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:
Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.
The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.
In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.
Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).
The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:
Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc
So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side
In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.
At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.
At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession
)In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.
1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.
The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.
The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.
West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.
We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.
I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:
Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc
Then you would have had something to whinge about!
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #32
West Coast were the most successful AFL team in the state for the best part of a decade before Fremantle came onto the scene. They had already secured the turncoat supporters from their established VFL teams, the premierships before Fremantle locked in the families for life.
Then Fremantle came onto the scene, linking itself to a single geographical location and trying to build it's own little place, but it was run by absolute morons who didn't read the fine print of AFL arrangements.
Long story short:
West Coast started first and drew in the footy fans from all of WA, they had success.
The AFL realised that the extra money in TV deals from having WA involved was going to be outweighed by the huge amount of WA talent flooding the now AFL and potentially returning home for less money, making West Coast a powerhouse - so they expanded a second team to dilute West Coast.
Splitting the interests of the WAFC was never their plan, West Coast was designed to be a single team state side.
Fremantle were run by morons.
I'd guess that there are five west coast fans to every dockers supporter, that includes the casual supporters who give a "yes" when they find out they won on Monday morning at work from someone who watched the game.
Fremantle needs to finish top four every year for about ten years to draw in the casual supporters.
It's important to recognise that West Coast fund a significant proportion of the talent drafted to interstate sides without compensation. Meanwhile other teams are on life support. AFL football in WA and by extension Australia is heavily subsidised by the West Coast Eagles fans.
Then Fremantle came onto the scene, linking itself to a single geographical location and trying to build it's own little place, but it was run by absolute morons who didn't read the fine print of AFL arrangements.
Long story short:
West Coast started first and drew in the footy fans from all of WA, they had success.
The AFL realised that the extra money in TV deals from having WA involved was going to be outweighed by the huge amount of WA talent flooding the now AFL and potentially returning home for less money, making West Coast a powerhouse - so they expanded a second team to dilute West Coast.
Splitting the interests of the WAFC was never their plan, West Coast was designed to be a single team state side.
Fremantle were run by morons.
I'd guess that there are five west coast fans to every dockers supporter, that includes the casual supporters who give a "yes" when they find out they won on Monday morning at work from someone who watched the game.
Fremantle needs to finish top four every year for about ten years to draw in the casual supporters.
It's important to recognise that West Coast fund a significant proportion of the talent drafted to interstate sides without compensation. Meanwhile other teams are on life support. AFL football in WA and by extension Australia is heavily subsidised by the West Coast Eagles fans.
The logo and colours aren’t as uplifting
Imagine walking into the headquarters
Premiership Gold and bright blue of the sky or sea.. matching the optimistic WA skies
The mighty Eagle - hallowed and glorified by the Egyptians, Aztecs, Americans etc etc
An animal you just cannot keep down
Compare that to the Jess Sinclair/Shaun McManus blonde surfer dufus or the wharfie chainsmoking tattoo union slob
Also the dark purple only seen in the natural world in flowers
Imagine walking into the headquarters
Premiership Gold and bright blue of the sky or sea.. matching the optimistic WA skies
The mighty Eagle - hallowed and glorified by the Egyptians, Aztecs, Americans etc etc
An animal you just cannot keep down
Compare that to the Jess Sinclair/Shaun McManus blonde surfer dufus or the wharfie chainsmoking tattoo union slob
Also the dark purple only seen in the natural world in flowers
You only need to google “worst ever freo trades” to know this isn’t true. Gerald Neesham had first access to Andrew McLeod, but sat him down in his office, criticised his earrings and said he’d never make it. There’s then the Trent croad saga, and many others. Poor decision making early on cost them, not the AFL
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Leaving aside concessions as it has been long enough to mitigate those effects, from afar it looks like WC are a well run club with high expectations who in particular develop KPP very well and make stars.
Freo seem to make one bad decision for every good decision or more.
Freo seem to make one bad decision for every good decision or more.
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- #36
Pretty easy to figure out. When West Coast suck for any small amount of time the vast majority of the state is enraged, demand the coach gets the sack, etc.
When Freo does fewer people care, and a good proportion of fans who should see any criticism of the clubs coming from Freagles or crypto-Eagle fans, and therefore heretical. We probably have the only fan base in the league where if you say the club isn’t performing, you’re told to support the enemy.
At most other clubs, Lyon would have been sacked after the Geelong game, in light of the off field scandals that have plagued us this year. There’s just no expectation among fans, important stakeholders, etc that things should be a lot better.
When Freo does fewer people care, and a good proportion of fans who should see any criticism of the clubs coming from Freagles or crypto-Eagle fans, and therefore heretical. We probably have the only fan base in the league where if you say the club isn’t performing, you’re told to support the enemy.
At most other clubs, Lyon would have been sacked after the Geelong game, in light of the off field scandals that have plagued us this year. There’s just no expectation among fans, important stakeholders, etc that things should be a lot better.
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- #37
Tom_Thumb
Club Legend
- Feb 1, 2016
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Say no more, there it is. You have the atypical Docker mentality laid bare.
*Post courtesy of Eagle87
A WA state side?
In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.
Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:
Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.
The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.
In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.
Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).
The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:
Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc
So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side
In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.
At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.
At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession
In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.
1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.
The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.
The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.
West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.
We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.
I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:
Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc
Then you would have had something to whinge about!
Was just about to post this.
We'll say they had half a state side.
Bloody good side that 1986 WA side. Won the national championships, beating SA away and then beating Vic at Subiaco by 3 points.
Were the Eagles of 87 actually a state side, they'd have probably won the flag.
Worth noting beside those results that WA population in 1986 was 1.46m, or about 35% of Vic's 4.16m. These days it's closer to 45%, so WA was proportionately a much smaller state back then. Really punched above their weight, no wonder the WAFL as being raided for players.
No one has ever done that. Comment was more about the Dockers amaturish response to the incident which was all about retribution and diversion. We all know WCE would have handled it differently.
- May 5, 2006
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Freo were amateur in the early days but from the mid 2000s they've been pretty stable off field.
Cameron Schwab running the show was predictably a disaster but since the Steves took over the club has been very professional. 40k members for a decade and now up to 55k.
Had a real crack a flag around 13/14 but they needed a better foil for Pavlich and Ross Lyon's low scoring game plan with experienced foot soldiers on every line always seems to get teams close but not close enough. Haven't scored 100 points in any final under RTB. 77 points was Hawthorn's second lowest score in their 3 peat era of finals and that was enough to beat Freo in 2013.
IMO they need to move on from Lyon and get some new blood through the door. Their list isn't terrible but definitely has some holes in it.
You can make excuses for how hard it was in 1995 starting up when WC were already a powerhouse etc. and there's a lot of validity to that but that was 23 years ago and Freo today are a top 6 or 8 club in the comp off field and the on field playing field is as level as it's ever going to get in WA so there's no reason they can't build a successful side.
Cameron Schwab running the show was predictably a disaster but since the Steves took over the club has been very professional. 40k members for a decade and now up to 55k.
Had a real crack a flag around 13/14 but they needed a better foil for Pavlich and Ross Lyon's low scoring game plan with experienced foot soldiers on every line always seems to get teams close but not close enough. Haven't scored 100 points in any final under RTB. 77 points was Hawthorn's second lowest score in their 3 peat era of finals and that was enough to beat Freo in 2013.
IMO they need to move on from Lyon and get some new blood through the door. Their list isn't terrible but definitely has some holes in it.
You can make excuses for how hard it was in 1995 starting up when WC were already a powerhouse etc. and there's a lot of validity to that but that was 23 years ago and Freo today are a top 6 or 8 club in the comp off field and the on field playing field is as level as it's ever going to get in WA so there's no reason they can't build a successful side.
Excellent analysis from you as always.
- Banned
- #43
None required.
It wasn't just drafting the backroom dealings and payoffs, etc. footy was so amateurish and, well, kinda corrupt back then. You can see why all the leagues were suffering since no one cared about the overall health of football just the health of their own club.
- Banned
- #45
Only partly related, but I think they are scared that if Lyon goes, Fyfe goes.
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Fyfe is 28 next year. If they're not getting any better in a year or two maybe let him go while he still has high value.
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- Everton_East Freo_Atalanta_Tranmere
Started s**t
Sorted ourselves out as a club in the mid-2000s somewhat
Strong re-brand in 2010
Made a bold step in 2011 and axed our coach, got Lyon in a coup and had our most successful period as a club from 2012-15
Have faltered and floundered on-field since the 2015 prelim and haven't really recovered.
Played a really young list for most of 2018. Faded big-time towards the end of the season. Peaked in the first derby and fell away since then - the opposite happened to the Eagles.
It's never as good or as bad as anyone says
Sorted ourselves out as a club in the mid-2000s somewhat
Strong re-brand in 2010
Made a bold step in 2011 and axed our coach, got Lyon in a coup and had our most successful period as a club from 2012-15
Have faltered and floundered on-field since the 2015 prelim and haven't really recovered.
Played a really young list for most of 2018. Faded big-time towards the end of the season. Peaked in the first derby and fell away since then - the opposite happened to the Eagles.
It's never as good or as bad as anyone says
- Banned
- #48
I genuinely think certain players like Fyfe, Walters and Hill have stayed out of loyalty. Lyon goes and I reckon they lose a few senior stars.
- Banned
- #49
Move to Melbourne to open a T-shirt store in one of those little streets off Chapel St?
- Banned
- #50
