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So live crowds don't mean anything, but when gws get a small live crowd you are the first on here to tell everybody about it. Which is it, live crowds mean something or mean nothing?
He lives in Sydney & you believe fuzzy membership & auskick numbers
Live crowds are misleading because afl has larger culture of attending games. Swan's chairman says himself that fans mistake this for widespread support.
Pumping millions into expansion doesn't equal growth. Fact this continues after more than a decade says the opposite.
NRL dominates the most viewed games in the country this year. If that's a sign of declining where does that leave afl?!
That's not true unless you exclude regionals, fox & whatever else. Report all the numbers.
Not all afl games overlap & NRL does higher fox numbers for individual games, so that's false too.
Don't know what swan's live crowd have to do with growth of NRL but afl crowds have been bigger than NRL for 25 years & yet tv viewership hasn't moved. Seems live crowds have nothing to do with growth of afl either... Just like Chairman said
If you count regionals, fox etc you can't say an NRL game hasn't beaten an afl game head to head this year.
Sunday avro NRL game is shown live on FTA yet still does bigger fox number than afl games. NRL owns fox & probably kayo, streaming etc.
Swan's have always had bigger live crowds & members (whatever criteria they use to count them). As far as more local juniors playing for them than NRL teams is utter bulls...
Still has nothing with NRL's growth & AFL's inability to capture Sydney TV market.
If you count regionals, fox etc you can't say an NRL game hasn't beaten an afl game head to head this year.
Not even on fox last week, on a rare occasion there was not an overlapping gameSunday avro NRL game is shown live on FTA yet still does bigger fox number than afl games.
NRL owns fox & probably kayo, streaming etc.
I repeat hes done this before. And if he believes his membership figures are wrong, then maybe Pridham can release the right ones for once.
As for fuzzy membership numbers, if you dont think all clubs at the professional level in Australia dont do the same thing the AFL clubs do, or wish they could, then you're an imbecile.
And no I dont count Auskick numbers - i believe registered club numbers to be the most accurate figure - but hey your chosen code DOES include volunteers and miniroos in its figures so....yeah.
Live crowds are the best measure we have. Its actual people going to actual games. Its a very tangible measure, unlike "fuzzy memberships" or participation numbers, or tv ratings surveys.
No, but more people participating, and more clubs opening, more teams established and actual increases in crowds and membership numbers DO indicate growth. You are just willfully ignoring the data.
lol no they dont. its pretty even - AFL/NRL 5 of the top 10 - this doesnt include ANZAC day where the AFL game IS the actual top rating game of the year. And doesnt include current round.
View attachment 1116743
Streaming figures in red are published Kayo data. Figures in blue use Fox group (Foxtel/Kayo/FoxNow/FoxGo) published averages for R1-6 of the NRL (372,000) and R1-5 of the AFL (253,000). This is likely inaccurate for this table as Thursday and Friday games tend to rate higher.
And you know where else the NRL dominate? nowhere. Crowds, gate takings, members, sponsorship, revenue (excluding pokies),
YOU report all the numbers. If you did youd stop making stupid statements. 7 of the top 10 broadcast games this year are AFL ones.
2 to 3 games a week do, and anywhere between 3-9 AFL games a week are simulcast on 7. Again, report all the numbers.
And AFL crowds keep growing. As do clubs, registered players, and overall participation. increased numbers = growth in anyones book.
He said on a Thursday or Friday night. Learn to read.
But even then I think when streaming was included it has happened at least once.
Yeah its almost like the AFL is also shown on FTA where it almost always gets bigger numbers...
Citation required.
Theres more to the game than just tv. And when you figure that out, get back to me. Otherwise this conversation is always going to be a waste of time.
You admit membership numbers are dodgy but participation figures are worse. Afl claims 1.7 million ppl are playing it's dangerous contact sport each week - no wonder country is in state that it is.
Any recent growth is distorted by emergence of women's game. Huge Penrith rugby league catchment boasted massive increase partly as result of this. Excluding this in traditional areas afl numbers actually declining.
Swan's chairman is speaking as Sydneysider & having been born & raised here I can tell you there is no culture of membership & mass attendance of games (& training sessions!!). That's an afl thing.
He's right because collectively the methods of viewing game can show nearly 500k Sydneysiders following some regular season NRL games. Afl numbers here only a fraction of that.
Excluding covid affected series last year State of Origin is biggest national football event on TV each year.
Despite attempts to dance around it NRL dominates on Fox, Kayo & streaming.
NRL has a greater regional presence with teams in Canberra, Newcastle, Townsville. NRL dominates TV ratings in regions.
NRL has greater international presence with the warriors, PNG in qld cup & shortly Fiji in NSW cup. Make up of NRL shows this with players from UK, NZ, Pacific etc.
NRL has higher percentage of Indigenous players & does better job of including ppl of different backgrounds. Koori Knockout is largest annual gathering of Indigenous ppl in the world. In 2015 opposing captains in grand final were both of Indigenous heritage, the same year Adam Goode's was booed out of afl.
In touch football NRL has a non contact version with huge participation numbers & growing. Surveys show touch players follow NRL in great numbers.
Not all about TV ratings.
You admit membership numbers are dodgy but participation figures are worse. Afl claims 1.7 million ppl are playing it's dangerous contact sport each week - no wonder country is in state that it is.
Any recent growth is distorted by emergence of women's game. Huge Penrith rugby league catchment boasted massive increase partly as result of this. Excluding this in traditional areas afl numbers actually declining.
Swan's chairman is speaking as Sydneysider & having been born & raised here I can tell you there is no culture of membership & mass attendance of games (& training sessions!!). That's an afl thing.
He's right because collectively the methods of viewing game can show nearly 500k Sydneysiders following some regular season NRL games. Afl numbers here only a fraction of that.
Excluding covid affected series last year State of Origin is biggest national football event on TV each year.
Despite attempts to dance around it NRL dominates on Fox, Kayo & streaming.
Various things no one mentioned or cares about here
In touch football NRL has a non contact version with huge participation numbers & growing. Surveys show touch players follow NRL in great numbers.
I assume you're referring to NRL clubs here - because the financial returns clearly show that actual revenue from memberships for AFL clubs dwarf that of NRL clubs - even more than the given raw numbers of members would suggest. So if the AFL are somehow fudging their audited numbers, the NRL are fudging even more - it might be the one thing they're better at....membership numbers are dodgy ...
Hahaha - You might've accidentally made a good point here - Compared to most of the rest of the world, the country is in a pretty good shape right now, so maybe you're right, it's all because of our "dangerous" footy code that we're better off than the rest ... but if our code is dangerous, the English rugby codes must be downright deadly ... and heading in soccer must be immediately banned, I guess.... Afl claims 1.7 million ppl are playing it's dangerous contact sport each week - no wonder country is in state that it is.
OK - So you, for whatever reason, have a problem with women and disdain including them, but so be it (perhaps it's only because AF women playing Numbers totally dwarf those playing RL) ... but even not counting them, Australian Football numbers in Melbourne are actually booming e.g. my own local inner suburban club, which 10 years had no juniors, now has multiple junior teams and have to spread games over Saturday and Sunday and this year even Friday evening/night to fit 'em all in - and numerous other clubs are experiencing the same "problem" - too many juniors, while soccer clubs are experiencing big drop-offs this year. And then there's this from the 'AF Grassroots' thread, showing the nationwide surge in club team numbers -Any recent growth is distorted by emergence of women's game. ... Excluding this in traditional areas afl numbers actually declining
Indeed, it is an AFL thing, even in Sydney (see - I'll acknowledge the few things you get right). But why is it so? Why do AFL crowds dwarf the other codes in Australia? Why do the Sydney Swans crowd average exceed all the Sydney NRL clubs while the always successful Melbourne Storm is less than all the Melbourne AFL clubs. It seems that when exposed to the game live, so many find it a much more satisfying and attractive game to watch live than any of the English codes.... Sydneysider & having been born & raised here I can tell you there is no culture of membership & mass attendance of games (& training sessions!!). That's an afl thing
lol no they dont. its pretty even - AFL/NRL 5 of the top 10 - this doesnt include ANZAC day where the AFL game IS the actual top rating game of the year. And doesnt include current round.
View attachment 1116743
Streaming figures in red are published Kayo data. Figures in blue use Fox group (Foxtel/Kayo/FoxNow/FoxGo) published averages for R1-6 of the NRL (372,000) and R1-5 of the AFL (253,000). This is likely inaccurate for this table as Thursday and Friday games tend to rate higher.
Just on this, some no doubt unwanted advice
Streaming figures in red are published Kayo data. Figures in blue use Fox group (Foxtel/Kayo/FoxNow/FoxGo) published averages for R1-6 of the NRL (372,000) and R1-5 of the AFL (253,000). This is likely inaccurate for this table as Thursday and Friday games tend to rate higher.
I think your stream estimates are clearly off the mark for the AFL. Most blatantly, it is risible to think that the Port Richmond game only rated 15K on streaming
Not just unwanted. It was also entirely unnessary.
The explanatory note below the figure literally says the average is likely to prove inadequate or do you simply not read what you responmd to?
Not my estimates,
its a Fox Group supplied average for ALL AFL games in the first 5 rounds, and in this case used in the absence of any other meaningful data. As it literally says in the explantory notes.
Daily Telegraph P. Rothfield 3.5.21
Rothfield is advocating that the NRL should shrink to greatness- by reducing the NRL to 14 teams.
Also, introduce a new "Championship" of 10 teams- North Sydney, Newtown, Central Coast, & new Country team playing in Riverina, Bathurst, Coffs Harbour etc.; & Brisbane 2, Mackay, NZ 2, & Perth.
There would be promotion & Relegation each year- so perhaps Canterbury & West Tigers get relegated.
Joining the large list of MSM NRL experts lamenting the decline of skill standards in the NRL, he said
"...there are not enough quality players for to fill 16 teams, let alone 18 [if the NRL expanded]. The gap between the top & bottom teams is too great".
NRL 2021: Buzz Rothfield’s promotion, relegation system for rugby league
The future of rugby league has been the subject of much debate around conferences, expansion and bush footy. Here’s a solution, via BUZZ ROTHFIELD.
Phil Rothfield
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@BuzzRothfield
NRL: A proposed conference-style system being adopted in the NRL has been met with a mixed response.
Bring back the North Sydney Bears and, while we’re at it, the Newtown Jets.
And do it without affecting the quality of the NRL competition.
The future of rugby league has been the subject of much debate around conferences, expansion, a lopsided competition and the survival of bush footy.
One option the NRL should consider is promotion and relegation like in UK soccer.
Watch The 2021 NRL Telstra Premiership Live & On-Demand with No Ad-Breaks During Play. New to Kayo? Try 14-Days Free Now >
Relegate two clubs to have a streamlined 14-team NRL premiership and a 10-team Championship (2nd division.)
Here’s how it would work.
Buzz Rothfield has proposed an NRL revolution.
BETTER FOOTY
The two-conference proposal first raised seven years ago in this newspaper will not improve the standard of the product each week.
It will actually make it worse in that there are not enough quality football players to fill 16 teams, let alone 18.
The gap between the top and bottom teams is too great. We see it every week.
Reducing the number of teams will create a much stronger NRL competition with fewer blowouts and more regular blockbusters.
Players that aren’t quite first graders can join a Championship team.
Melbourne Storm celebrate the 2020 premiership (Photo by Cameron Spencer/Getty Images)
THE DESPERATION
There would be as much interest in the bottom end of the ladder as the top.
Lower teams would be as desperate to avoid relegation as top clubs are to make the finals.
It would add huge interest at the back end of the season to games that are normally dead rubbers.
This will surely increase the quality of football, attendances and television ratings.
Imagine the interest if St George-Illawarra was playing the Wests Tigers and needed to win to avoid relegation in the final round. You’d need a big stadium.
DETAILS AT A GLANCE
* Initially two teams relegated from bottom of the ladder
* 1 team promoted and relegated each year
* 14 strong NRL clubs
* New 10-team Championship (2nd division)
* Not as many blowouts
* More blockbuster games
* Huge interest in bottom placed NRL teams late in season
* Huge interest in top Championship teams late in season
* Brings back the Bears and Newtown
* Puts the onus on the clubs to get their houses in order
* Massive boost for bush football
* League on the Central Coast
* Loan player arrangements for promoted clubs
* Championship match of the round on TV Wednesday nights
DEMOTED NRL CLUBS
The bottom two teams on the premiership ladder would initially drop to The Championship.
Then the bottom team each year would be relegated.
It sounds harsh and there would no doubt be met with outrage by fans of underperforming NRL clubs like the Wests Tigers, the Canterbury Bulldogs or even the Cronulla Sharks.
However tough and not always fan-friendly calls need to be made.
Uncompetitive teams on the receiving end of blowouts each week are hurting the quality of the NRL competition.
Newtown Jets would return under this proposal.
Let them go back to The Championship, get their house in order, then try to make it back through better management.
This will force them to think smarter and run a business as well as clubs like the Roosters, Rabbitohs, Storm and the Parramatta Eels.
THE PLAYERS
So what happens to the star NRL players from the clubs that are demoted?
The players could be lent to clubs in the NRL competition. Like Melbourne Storm, the Wests Tigers and Harry Grant last year. It can be done.
The promoted Championship club each year would get first crack in a draft for these players.
NRL 14-TEAM COMP
$10 million salary cap
Teams: Panthers, Storm, Eels, Roosters, Raiders, Rabbitohs, Knights, Sharks, Titans
Warriors, Manly, Dragons, Broncos, Cowboys
* Play each other twice
* Top 5 finals series
* Bottom team drops to Championship
THE CHAMPIONSHIP
Imagine the excitement around a fairytale return for traditional old clubs like the North Sydney Bears and the Newtown Jets.
While these clubs at the moment are nowhere near in a position to be running an NRL side, this at least leaves the door ever so slightly ajar for it to happen in the future.
Both clubs still have enormous fan bases.
The Championship 10-team competition would also put rugby league back on the Central Coast.
This is a thriving rugby league area but lacks enough corporate support to have an NRL franchise. This would change if they won The Championship.
It would also be a way help new expansion clubs like a second Brisbane or New Zealand team get their introductions into a professional environment.
Teams would have a salary cap of $4 million.
CHAMPIONSHIP 10-TEAM COMP
$4 million salary cap
Teams: Wests Tigers, 2nd Brisbane team, Bulldogs, Wellington (NZ), NSW Country, Perth, Central Coast, North Sydney Bears, Newtown, Mackay
NSW COUNTRY
This would give country football the lift and revitalisation it so desperately needs.
The side could be based out of the Riverina, (population 155,000) and once a rugby league heartland before the AFL steamrolled into Wagga Wagga.
It could be a satellite team playing home games in country towns like Dubbo, Bathurst, Mudgee, Tamworth, Armidale and Coffs Harbour but the majority of games out of the Riverina.
It would mean high quality rugby league in the bush every weekend. Youngsters in country towns would dream of making the side and getting TV exposure along a pathway to the NRL.
TV COVERAGE
Having two competitions would allow the NRL to spread the coverage of the game around the TV networks, like what happens with major sport in the United States.
All Championship matches would be covered on TV as well as NRL.
The match of the round could become a regular Wednesday night game on Fox Sports.
There will be initial pain but tough decisions need to be made in big business and in sport.
Bottom 2 clubs are Brisbane and Bulldogs.
Could you imagine the Broncos relegated and no top tier RL team in Brisbane? Would be a massive free kick to the Lions!
From the Championship point of view, I actually like the idea of a Riverina team (from an RL perspective). The Raiders have been playing an annual game in Wagga lately and it is a contested area. Another reason why I want a Canberra AFL team playing an annual game out of Wagga.
There was a representative Riverina AF team in AFL Canberra, but I believe the Riverina Lions were just to help kickstart women's footy in the region. I'd like to see a full-time Riverina Lions in div 1 of AFL Canberra men's and women's.
Could you imagine the Broncos relegated and no top tier RL team in Brisbane? Would be a massive free kick to the Lions!
From the Championship point of view, I actually like the idea of a Riverina team (from an RL perspective). The Raiders have been playing an annual game in Wagga lately and it is a contested area. Another reason why I want a Canberra AFL team playing an annual game out of Wagga.
There was a representative Riverina AF team in AFL Canberra, but I believe the Riverina Lions were just to help kickstart women's footy in the region. I'd like to see a full-time Riverina Lions in div 1 of AFL Canberra men's and women's.
... well apart from the AFL Grand Final (which was so far ahead of the NRL GF it wasn't a contest) - and when all the AFL final matches went head to head with the NRL finals how did the ratings go? hint - you were right to not mention that - it was a smashing.Excluding covid affected series last year State of Origin is biggest national football event on TV each year.
So why does Foxtel pay the AFL hundreds of millions more than the NRL for their rights? Maybe they know how many subscribe for each code and see it differently than you? Overall, including everything, AFL clearly has many more watching on TV, hence why they always secure much more in rights. Quite simple....Despite attempts to dance around it NRL dominates on Fox, Kayo & streaming...
Cool, ok - AFL dominates the big capital cities where all the money is, NRL dominate the much smaller regionals. We agree on this, then.... NRL has a greater regional presence with teams in Canberra, Newcastle, Townsville. ...
Sure do - well apart from places like Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Albury-Wodonga, Mandurah, Mildura, Shepparton and the rest of country Bicoria etc ... not to mention the Northern Territory ... then there's the entire state of Tasmania.... NRL dominates TV ratings in regions...
Sure - being an English sport that's no surprise. But if we all just supported a code based on its "international presence", we'd all be following soccer - or if we preferred a more robust sport, RU, which dwarfs NRL internationally. But, just as American football is the biggest code in the USA, Australian Football is (appropriately) Australia's most popular code - by... NRL has greater international presence with the warriors, PNG in qld cup & shortly Fiji in NSW cup. Make up of NRL shows this with players from UK, NZ, Pacific etc...
I thought I'd have to concede this point, given that NSW/ACT/Qld has about 2 and a half times the indigenous population as Vic/SA/WA combined (of which half live in WA) - 494,544 v 200,544, according to the ABS -... NRL has higher percentage of Indigenous players ...
Do they? - sure, they get players from rugby playing England and Pacific Islands - just like RU does - that's so easy.... NRL ... does better job of including ppl of different backgrounds. ...
Lol - now that's about the ultimate in desperation - but thanks yet again for all the fun I get here, Pip. You provide the perfect excuse to post this sort of stuff. Are you sure you're not a double troll from AFL house?... In touch football NRL has a non contact version with huge participation numbers & growing. Surveys show touch players follow NRL in great numbers.
Sure - being an English sport that's no surprise. But if we all just supported a code based on its "international presence", we'd all be following soccer - or if we preferred a more robust sport, RU, which dwarfs NRL internationally. But, just as American football is the biggest code in the USA, Australian Football is (appropriately) Australia's most popular code - by
a big margin. Meanwhile I'm sure NRL is the biggest code ... I guess somewhere in some third world country?
Meanwhile I'm sure NRL is the biggest code ... I guess somewhere in some third world country?
NRL has ........
It's hard to tell where RL is played because once you're federated you're considered to be a nation that plays RL.
He also says there must be a revival in Country Rugby League, & an increase in jnr nos. or expansion will fail.
In terms of the international game, League has the advantage of being closely related to Rugby, so anywhere there's a game of rugby being played, you have ready-made candidates to pretty much take up League instantaneously.
If you have a country where rugby is a minor sport,
you can imagine the players legitimately asking what the point is of having an alternative form of rugby?