What have we learnt ?

[mike123]

But we didn't........as we had the 6 forwards. Which was the point.

Yeah but you had 6 defenders to our 5 forwards

 

[MinerBoy]

Yeah but you had 6 defenders to our 5 forwards

Which means you played a man short in your forward line. We didn't play a spare man back. That was your doing, not ours and my post was in response to one of your posters suggesting they were sick of us getting away with the extra man or loose man in the backline.

 

[mike123]

Which means you played a man short in your forward line. We didn't play a spare man back. That was your doing, not ours and my post was in response to one of your posters suggesting they were sick of us getting away with the extra man or loose man in the backline.

The post you quoted said that.

 

[MinerBoy]

The post you quoted said that.

Nope. It said "We continue to let them play the loose man in defence."

We continue to let them play the loose man in defence.

My interpretation of that is that we are playing the spare men back. You can use word play to suggest we have a loose man back because you are playing a man short but we all know playing 7 back is the meaning of playing the loose/spare man back.

 

[mike123]

Nope. It said "We continue to let them play the loose man in defence."



My interpretation of that is that we are playing the spare men back. You can use word play to suggest we have a loose man back because you are playing a man short but we all know playing 7 back is the meaning of playing the loose/spare man back.

Well my interpretation off that was by us playing a loose man back it allowed you to play a loose man back. My interpretation of playing a loose man back was having and extra player behind the ball which in fact you did because we decided to play a loose player behind the ball and you didn't man him up. Sorry for arguing about nonsense.

 

[MinerBoy]

Well my interpretation off that was by us playing a loose man back it allowed you to play a loose man back. My interpretation of playing a loose man back was having and extra player behind the ball which in fact you did because we decided to play a loose player behind the ball and you didn't man him up. Sorry for arguing about nonsense.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Knightmare]

It's the best we've played Hawthorn and we had the more players missing so yesterdays performance considering was better than I'd expected.

I went in expecting a 10 goal smashing which is what we've come to expect in the Nathan Buckley era v Hawthorn.

But what we're seeing at present is the inadequacies of our list.

What was obvious was how poor our footskills are. We're so much like the Pies of the mid 00s. Lots of workman-like performers and few real top class footballers who can take you over the top of the better teams.

To put it in perspective we are a bottom 3 side for disposal efficiency at 70.4%. The only club worse than Collingwood is St Kilda at 70.3%. Brisbane are equal 16th with us at 70.4% and not surprisingly GWS are 15th at 70.9%.

As a unit we just lack the guys with the ability by foot and the decision making ability outside of Pendlebury and a select few others to compete with the best.

When we get senior games into Scharenberg and Freeman and more games into Broomhead that will help. As well as getting Reid, Sidebottom and Fasolo back into the team that will help. But still more is needed.

As a team if you want to be competitive you need a disposal efficiency of 72%+ and that's with a higher kick to handball ratio than we're currently operating at.

The footskills aren't the only problem though. The quality of our key position players I would argue aren't of as high a level as you'd like. In a few years Grundy and Witts can be the foundation in the ruck, that is fine. But for key position players you'd still like a little better than we've got. I'd like to see 5 high quality key position players and right now I'm only seeing the 3 - Cloke, Reid and Frost if he continues to build on what he's currently doing. Moore could help eventually but to be a winning side you really need as an example the additions of James Frawley as a defender and Mitch Clark as a forward to play alongside our three key position players to be a premiership side.

Our other issues are we're still losing the clearance count most weeks - so a stronger, bigger body who can be a stoppage king is still needed as we're still lacking that one dominant inside force to compliment Pendlebury and Beams and I'd also argue we're slower than you'd like in most positions. Freeman and Marsh will help once they develop but you'd love a Travis Varcoe on a wing and a Jeff Garlett type up forward to really have that adequate amount of pace in the team.

 

[Knightmare]

Holding the Ball is a Terrible Rule. Umps have no Idea about it

Holding the ball no longer exists in football.

I made that comment when I first posted my almanac months ago and it's nice to see the media are finally starting to catch up.

Now it's just guys not making a genuine attempt or not properly getting rid of the ball. Spin a guy 360 with the ball or chase them down from behind and it's just continuation.

I imagine the rule interpretation change has come about because of the improvement of clubs with the sheer increase in tackle numbers over recent years so as not to give those stronger tackling sides such an advantage as our 2010 premiership side had thanks to the rule interpretation of the day where everything was paid but it is a very sudden swing in rule interpretation and as drastic a rule change as any we've seen in recent times.

The game today more than any other previous year due to rule changes - less stoppages through play continuing until the ball comes out, subs, rotation limits among others factors has really changed the game more than we've ever seen it changed.

I'm not a fan of any of the changes frankly. I think we should have interchange benches of 8 and I'd like holding the ball to be called more and I had no issues with the quantity of stoppages we had seen in the past. But none the less you change with the rules. If you don't you get left behind.

 

[Pie eyed]

we defiantly haven't learnt how to kick with accuracy. if anything we have regressed

So you think they are kicking inaccurately just to get up Bucks nose....

 

[Robroy22]

KM....interchange benches of 8 sounds great to me too. And unlimited interchange. That will keep the game moving fitter, faster players

 

[Knightmare]

KM....interchange benches of 8 sounds great to me too. And unlimited interchange. That will keep the game moving fitter, faster players

That's what I'd love to see also.

Other sports have more on the bench and that's with less guys on the field.

Our game also goes longer than other sports.

It's surprising to me anyway that the game hasn't transitioned this way but the AFL have their own ideas.

 

[Robroy22]

That's what I'd love to see also.

Other sports have more on the bench and that's with less guys on the field.

Our game also goes longer than other sports.

It's surprising to me anyway that the game hasn't transitioned this way but the AFL have their own ideas.

yeah I think its called "equalisation".....too bad the games being equalised into mediocrity.

 

[Knightmare]

yeah I think its called "equalisation".....too bad the games being equalised into mediocrity.

Equalisation would also have the public think that the COLA is necessary or the more frightening academies which allow GWS and Sydney the ability to sign the best NSW talent and Gold Coast and Brisbane the QLD talent.

As an example of why the academies are so frightening is Sydney this year will be able to sign Isaac Heeney - arguably the best midfielder in this draft and a top 2-4 talent in this draft. They also have the ability to do the same again next year with Callum Mills who is an equally elite midfielder and again yet another top 1-4 type talent in next years draft. And that's all after just being able to sign Lloyd Perris last year who is another really high level midfielder as a rookie and in my view the guy was despite his rookie position yet another first round quality midfielder.

It's not like NSW is a completely baron state when it comes to talent and neither is QLD. It's ridiculous any two clubs can get a monopoly of the talent in from these states.

Thanks to the AFL's idea of equalisation Sydney have just been gifted a 10 year core midfield group and that Buddy Franklin guy as a free agent the year after getting Kurt Tippett as a free agent thanks to COLA.

So through these measures Sydney have managed to secure their key forward stocks for the next 6-7 years and midfield for the next 10-12 years.

Derek Hine ever so vaguely in his recent interview about our recruitment of Mason Cox alluded to this if you read between the lines when he was talking about the importance of looking for talent from alternative pathways and in actually following the draft it's only then that you can really fully understand how ridiculous it is that Sydney and these other clubs have these opportunities the rest of us can only dream about.

 

[TheWoodsOf72]

Holding the ball no longer exists in football.
Now it's just guys not making a genuine attempt or not properly getting rid of the ball. Spin a guy 360 with the ball or chase them down from behind and it's just continuation.

Not a fan of these 360 spins which I regard as holding the ball. The guy has been tackled and is allowed to spin 360, have a good look and then pass the ball off. Sounds like rugby and does not reward the tackler.

 

[Knightmare]

Not a fan of these 360 spins which I regard as holding the ball. The guy has been tackled and is allowed to spin 360, have a good look and then pass the ball off. Sounds like rugby and does not reward the tackler.

I would agree.

If a guy is dispossessed (and this isn't getting called this year either) or spun 360 degrees then it should be holding the ball and it's these changes that need to be made to the rule.

I also don't like the in the back rule with that tackling. Guys drop at the knees drawing frees, I'd personally say clean tackle. But that's just the way I'd like that rule to be adjudicated.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Holding the ball no longer exists in football.

I made that comment when I first posted my almanac months ago and it's nice to see the media are finally starting to catch up.

Now it's just guys not making a genuine attempt or not properly getting rid of the ball. Spin a guy 360 with the ball or chase them down from behind and it's just continuation.

I imagine the rule interpretation change has come about because of the improvement of clubs with the sheer increase in tackle numbers over recent years so as not to give those stronger tackling sides such an advantage as our 2010 premiership side had thanks to the rule interpretation of the day where everything was paid but it is a very sudden swing in rule interpretation and as drastic a rule change as any we've seen in recent times.

The game today more than any other previous year due to rule changes - less stoppages through play continuing until the ball comes out, subs, rotation limits among others factors has really changed the game more than we've ever seen it changed.

I'm not a fan of any of the changes frankly. I think we should have interchange benches of 8 and I'd like holding the ball to be called more and I had no issues with the quantity of stoppages we had seen in the past. But none the less you change with the rules. If you don't you get left behind.

A lot of food for thought there.

Also, the Age this morning has us 15th for spread of goal kickers, a consistent key stat for premiership contending sides. It seems on a number of indicators this year we are a bottom 4 side! I'm scratching my head to actually work out how we've gone so well.

Clearly the following areas need to be addressed:

1. A dominant ruckman and strong midfield presence to stand up in the clutch clearances, we will never contend in finals til this is achieved.
2. A much better spread of goal kickers, including a multi pronged forward set up where Cloke is just one of many options.
3. Better kicking efficiency across each line.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

I guess it's clear now that GC and GWS are coming, Freo, Port and Sydney are already here. I would back us to be better than Hawthorn and probably Geelong in 2 years from now. But with the AfL sponsored super teams and Sydney set to become the next Brisbane Lions with their absurdly generous concessions in salary, draw and draft access, we are going to struggle to squeeze a flag out of that small window between Hawthorn dropping off and the franchises developing into fully fledged juggernauts. It's frustrating. The only way I can see it working is if we pull some clever manoeuvres in free agency and all our young guns come on quickly and we finally get a good run with injuries for a year. A lot to hope for. But I spose the Hawks showed it is possible having made every post a winner at the trade table. god they've nailed it with Gunston, Burgoyne, Hale and Lake. If we could do something similar wed be some sort of chance in the next few years.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

That's what I'd love to see also.

Other sports have more on the bench and that's with less guys on the field.

Our game also goes longer than other sports.

It's surprising to me anyway that the game hasn't transitioned this way but the AFL have their own ideas.

I would love to see an extended bench. It would lessen the impact of injury on the outcome of a game. With the sub rule a team is hugely vulnerable if a key player goes down early in the game and this is pretty unfair if it happens in a final or GF.

Also, from a parochial viewpoint, one of our strengths is having a deeper list than most teams.

 

[MarkT2]

Learnt nothing from this week.
We can't kick well enough to win a flag and we are not fast enough.
Knew that last year and we let some creative talent go so it was always going to be a tough year.
Hawks always get us on the outside.

If I learnt anything it is that Broomhead isn't ready yet. He looks to have something but it aint AFL ready yet.

 

[Travis bloke]

We have learnt that we are not that good a team.We butcher the ball weekly we cant hit targets.We need to have players in the side that can kick accurately.Hawthorn are not that good,but they have players that can kick the ball accurately tahts how they get out of congested situations.Who knows once we get Darcy moore next year and we end up seeing players like Sharenberg and freeman in full flight we may have something.Plus we need to recruit players who can kick accurately,because if you cannot kick accurately you cannot win games and get ourselves out of tricky situations on field

 

[TradeDraft]

The footskills aren't the only problem though. The quality of our key position players I would argue aren't of as high a level as you'd like. In a few years Grundy and Witts can be the foundation in the ruck, that is fine. But for key position players you'd still like a little better than we've got. I'd like to see 5 high quality key position players and right now I'm only seeing the 3 - Cloke, Reid and Frost if he continues to build on what he's currently doing. Moore could help eventually but to be a winning side you really need as an example the additions of James Frawley as a defender and Mitch Clark as a forward to play alongside our three key position players to be a premiership side.

So we need to Try and Get some Quailty Talls into the Club if we want to compete.

Don’t know how we get Mitch Clark. If he comes back you think he would only play for a WA Club. Would have to spend big to get Frawley

 

[cleomenes]

Two threads here really. On the matter of what we know about our team there are a few things.

Frost is even better than we think. It seems every week, his opponent starts well, then Frost works out how this guy operates and shuts him down. Next time he meets each of these players, he will know the little signals they give and be ready for them. Fantastic.
The marking of our middle sized players is as big a negative as their kicking. Only a few of them can be relied upon to mark a pass if their opponent is on their case. You might have noticed that hawthorn's passes are made to look better because the receiver marks the kick if it is well placed, where our receivers frequently don't in the same situation. This gives them more freedom to choose options that are too risky for us.
We desperately need Reid in the forward line.
Keeffe is playing very well, but his marking under pressure is his weakness. He is very calm under pressure with his ground work.
We have missed Sidebottom.
Broomhead is not ready yet.
Adams will be what we recruited him for as he gains confidence in his place in the side.
As a few have noted, with so many indicators for the side below par, it is amazing that we are placed as well as we are. Perhaps it is the coaches doing.

My thoughts on the rules discussion that has developed.
There have been radical changes made to the game without changing the rules, but by instructing the umpires to interpret them differently. Most of these changes have not worked well.
In the back. This rule was created so that players competing for the ball could not be pushed off their feet or off balance from behind and therefore prevented from having a fair chance at the ball. Few frees are paid for this, but many are paid for one player ending up on another's back on the ground, when there is no contest any more. Play is not being influenced, and there is really no point in the free. This is distinct from the cases where a player falls on a grounded player with a view to causing injury in the manner of Mumford.

Holding the ball. The aim is to keep the ball moving by insisting that the player with the ball dispose of it legally as soon as he is tackled. Current interpretation allows the player to look around for a team mate and have plenty of time to choose an option. Not the intention of the rule. The way it operates now, barging through is encouraged over attempts at evasion or early disposal of the ball even if it is not to advantage. The balance has been moved too far away from the tackler to the ball carrier. The crazy lottery that is holding the ball when players are pinned on the ground feeds everyone's frustration. The interpretation was briefly right, when the act of pulling the ball in (or not) was the criterion.Now, it is just awful.

Interchange. I disagree with most posters on this one. Interchange should only be for medical reasons, not tactical ones in my view. It is the biggest cause of the players occupying only a third of the ground most of the time. Rugby players interestingly, also see interchange as a major problem for their game. Coaches like it because it gives them more control, but it doesn't help the game.

 

[peter9789]

No real surprises to be honest from the past few weeks. I had us pegged preseason as finishing as high as 6th and as low as 10th. I'm really pleased we are setting up to finish around 6th which is on the high end and I think this currently reflects our list and development.

As KM said above, we have a lot of 'workman like' players with average to poor footskills, and until we can sprinkle some more talent through our best 22. Players such as Broomhead, Scharenberg, Freeman, and potentially Kennedy (although I hear his footskills are not fantastic) we are not likely to threaten a top four team, which we are clearly not at the moment.

Frost continues to defy the odds and is developing into a quality AFL defender and will only get better.

 

[peatease]

I think we have a few key deficiencies which are causing imbalance in our play.

I think forward and midfield defensive pressure at stoppages is a lot weaker, we get shown up on the spread. Quite a few goals end up with a free man in our 50 getting an uncontested mark.

Forward line entries, I have no real confidence in our forward 50 entries. When we had a player like Didak outside the 50 more often than not we'd get a decent shot on goal. Our flankers with time and space still can't spot up inside the 50 uncontested.

In saying that, if we lock the ball in, we're not particularly consistent and too many teams break away and with decent kicking skills have a good entry into our defence.

I think Grundy/Witts need time to get a lot bigger stronger. This will improve their consistency in the hitouts and the contest. Against superior ruckmen they can get dominated and our clearange work isn't as strong. We're used to losing the hit outs but need a more consistent performance there.

 

[Knightmare]

A lot of food for thought there.

Also, the Age this morning has us 15th for spread of goal kickers, a consistent key stat for premiership contending sides. It seems on a number of indicators this year we are a bottom 4 side! I'm scratching my head to actually work out how we've gone so well.

Clearly the following areas need to be addressed:

1. A dominant ruckman and strong midfield presence to stand up in the clutch clearances, we will never contend in finals til this is achieved.
2. A much better spread of goal kickers, including a multi pronged forward set up where Cloke is just one of many options.
3. Better kicking efficiency across each line.

It is a wonder how we won so many from that first 7 matches but our play now is probably more representative of who we are.

Interestingly your first criteria I don't see us doing anything to amend.

With our ruckmen it's clear we're backing Grundy and Witts in to develop and I don't see the club not sticking by the pair and bringing in anyone else of note other than perhaps a Hudson equivalent as a similar veteran depth type as injury cover. If we could get a Stefan Martin on the cheap or if a Jon Giles goes out of favour and can be had cheaply then I'd be ok looking into that but I wouldn't be spending more than a late pick to make it happen.

On the midfield situation I expect Derek and his crew to look at the mids and say we've got more than enough if not too many mids and just to stick by the current group we have with Freeman to take Swan's place and Adams to take Ball's place - not that they're like for like replacements or nearly the same quality talents but I imagine this is what they club are looking at and with Scharenberg and Langdon who are both projected to move into the midfield and various other midfielders on the list it's hard to see us adding anyone else. In saying that though it's something I would look to do. Maybe this season but more likely some time down the track - bring in that real monster of a midfielder with not only height but real physical size and grunt to compliment Pendlebury and Beams as I just don't see anyone else on our list being of a sufficiently high enough level if we want to be a contender in September.

The spread of goalkickers should improve when we have that second key forward in the side to play alongside Cloke - at this stage presumably Reid. With Cloke and Reid up forward that's a good starting point. Elliott is hitting the scoreboard in bunches then we have a whole host of goalkicking midfielders. Kyle Martin if played forward also could be another goalkicking option so I'm probably not as strong on looking to add to our spread of goalkickers as that's one of the things if we get that second key forward in place that we probably already have.

Kicking efficiency is a probably the big one. Down back and through the midfield particularly we don't have enough guys who can really use it both efficiently and meaningfully in that quick and penetrating ball movement sense. Pendlebury and use it precisely and Young can hit long targets but that's pretty much all we've got at this point with a select few moderately good in one or the other category but not elite. So expect a footskills theme maybe this year, maybe in a future season but it's something we need more of and an improvement in from a recruiting standpoint but then also a player development standpoint as something which for the most part with most of our players hasn't improved as it has with so many of those Hawthorn guys as an example - Litherland and Duryea at Hawthorn as two examples, those guys couldn't nearly kick with that penetration or hurt factor as juniors and suddenly they're both really doing some damage with ball in hand. You'd hope a few guys, maybe as extreme a transformation as it would be you'd love Marley Williams to develop that as despite his still frequent enough poor kicks he's someone who as a junior I felt anyone could kick some long, low, hard daggers at times.

We have learnt that we are not that good a team.We butcher the ball weekly we cant hit targets.We need to have players in the side that can kick accurately.Hawthorn are not that good,but they have players that can kick the ball accurately tahts how they get out of congested situations.Who knows once we get Darcy moore next year and we end up seeing players like Sharenberg and freeman in full flight we may have something.Plus we need to recruit players who can kick accurately,because if you cannot kick accurately you cannot win games and get ourselves out of tricky situations on field

Hawthorn are an interesting team to analyse.

Down back the key factor is that all their guys other than Lake can generate meaningful drive from the back half with all their guys penetrating kicks who can all really do damage. Heck even Duryea and Litherland are doing it and they're just depth guys.

Then up forward what they have from a ball use standpoint is that accuracy converting at goal. Breust and Gunston are both dead-eyes from set shots and Roughead has gone from a terrible converter to very good converter so they're guys who are taking the shots at goal are converting from their attempts which no other club really has. Then they've got that Cyril Rioli guy who is a heck of a crumber and finisher from general play. So that's a pretty good mix.

In the midfield the best user is Mitchell but then they have some others who can go through there in Hodge, Rioli, Burgoyne and Lewis who can also do damage.

So when assessing Hawthorn as a kicking team they've obviously assessed footskill superiority as that most central factor to winning and they clearly do it better than any with the accuracy but then also the sheer quantity of penetrating kicks in that squad.

Add some elite runners on both wings in Smith and Hill and there is good reason why they're such a good team.