What if

[kulak]

What if we had been allowed to pick up Bryce Gibbs? What if we had drafted Pavlich instead of McGregor?

These and similar sentiments have been expressed often, but it's time it was taken to its logical conclusion.

1. Bryce Gibbs

We get to pick him up as father-son in 2006 National Draft.

Cost: We would've used our second round pick (32), with which we drafted Kurt Tippett.

2. Matthew Pavlich

Draft him with pick 75 in the 1998 National Draft.

Cost: 8-ish years of good service from Ken McGregor.

3. Daniel Wells

Don't trade away pick 4 (subsequently pick 2) for Carey, and use the pick on Wells.

(Yes I know I could have suggested trading that pick for Pavlich instead of Carey - but we already drafted Pavlich at point 2, right?)

Cost: a couple of injury-riddled years from Carey.

4. Shaun Burgoyne

Don't trade away pick 13 for Matthew Bode in 2000 National Draft. Use the pick on S. Burgoyne.

Cost: a few good years from Bode

5. Kane Cornes

Select him with pick 7 of 2000 National Draft, instead of Laurence Angwin.

Cost: any ideas?

6. Chad Cornes

If we'd kept Graham Cornes as coach for one more season, we could've picked up both Cornes boys under father-son.

7. Nick Dal Santo

Draft him with pick 12 of 2001 National Draft instead of Brent Reilly.

Cost: Brent Reilly

8. Liam Petrie

2000 National Draft again - we traded away pick 23 for Evan Hewitt (!!!), and Nth Melb used that pick on Liam Petrie. Obscure, I know...

And finally...

9. 2005 and 2006 premierships

Ben Cousins is booted out for substance use 2-3 years earlier, and without him we beat West Coast in the two prelims. The grand finals against Sydney would've been easy, as we all know they were our bunnies.

Okay, I'm all out. Any more ideas?

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

What if we had been allowed to pick up Bryce Gibbs? What if we had drafted Pavlich instead of McGregor?

These and similar sentiments have been expressed often, but it's time it was taken to its logical conclusion.

1. Bryce Gibbs

We get to pick him up as father-son in 2006 National Draft.

Cost: We would've used our second round pick (32), with which we drafted Kurt Tippett.

2. Matthew Pavlich

Draft him with pick 75 in the 1998 National Draft.

Cost: 8-ish years of good service from Ken McGregor.

3. Daniel Wells

Don't trade away pick 4 (subsequently pick 2) for Carey, and use the pick on Wells.

(Yes I know I could have suggested trading that pick for Pavlich instead of Carey - but we already drafted Pavlich at point 2, right?)

Cost: a couple of injury-riddled years from Carey.

4. Shaun Burgoyne

Don't trade away pick 13 for Matthew Bode in 2000 National Draft. Use the pick on S. Burgoyne.

Cost: a few good years from Bode

5. Kane Cornes

Select him with pick 7 of 2000 National Draft, instead of Laurence Angwin.

Cost: any ideas?

6. Chad Cornes

If we'd kept Graham Cornes as coach for one more season, we could've picked up both Cornes boys under father-son.

7. Nick Dal Santo

Draft him with pick 12 of 2001 National Draft instead of Brent Reilly.

Cost: Brent Reilly

8. Liam Petrie

2000 National Draft again - we traded away pick 23 for Evan Hewitt (!!!), and Nth Melb used that pick on Liam Petrie. Obscure, I know...

And finally...

9. 2005 and 2006 premierships

Ben Cousins is booted out for substance use 2-3 years earlier, and without him we beat West Coast in the two prelims. The grand finals against Sydney would've been easy, as we all know they were our bunnies.

Okay, I'm all out. Any more ideas?

firstly, out of your list I do not rate Dal Santo and would never want him to play for the tri colours, he is a soft outside reciever who is selfish and does not play the 1%.

finally, like the classic saying goes "If my Aunt had Balls she would be my Uncle", by that I mean every club will have it's "what if's". I would rather focus on actuals because thats what we have to work with and that is what we have got to win us games of footy

 

[cmndstab]

It is always difficult to know exactly what the ripple effect would be on these. Let's say we had taken Dal Santo but that St. Kilda didn't want Reilly. They would have selected someone else, and that would mean that a later club might have a different pick to reality as well, and this could have ended up affecting our final draft choices too.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

1) Too early to tell.

2) I would trade 20 good Ken Mac years of service for 2 years of M Pavlich. If we have M Pavlich in 2005/2006 we at least make a grand final.

3) At the time i agreed with this, a risk on Carey and a possible flag was worth not drafting the disappointing Wells. However, the Pav opportunity puts a whole new light on the situation. If, as stated, Pav was desperate to come home, then the club made a huge error. I wonder when Pav won his first AA guernsey. Did he have one pre-2003?

4) Probably our worst trade. I dont reckon any other club in the competition would have had Bode in their top 50 trade targets, let alone pick 12. In hindsight, the club has said if they didn't trade for Bode, they would have selected S Thompson with that pick, hows that for arrogance and unhealthy levels of self belief.

 

[kulak]

It is always difficult to know exactly what the ripple effect would be on these. Let's say we had taken Dal Santo but that St. Kilda didn't want Reilly. They would have selected someone else, and that would mean that a later club might have a different pick to reality as well, and this could have ended up affecting our final draft choices too.

True, but I'm far too lazy to think about all that.

 

[jenny61_99]

WHAT IF.......Kulak was under the influence of Magic Mushrooms when he created this thread.

I reckon that's a safe bet!

 

[kulak]

I reckon that's a safe bet!

Harsh!

 

[Porps is a star!!]

I agree that we have had some questionable selections/ trades in the past!

I have always regretted that we didn't keep Cornes long enough to pick up his boys with the father son selection, but i'm not sure who liam Petrie is?? I assume you mean Drew?? but he's hardly a star player....

And as for the dal santo over reilly idea... not a chance!! ridiculous. Reilly is just as good and not to mention his reported leadership for the non sa boys!! he is invaluable and he will have a great year this year i can feel it!!

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

I agree that we have had some questionable selections/ trades in the past!

I have always regretted that we didn't keep Cornes long enough to pick up his boys with the father son selection, but i'm not sure who liam Petrie is?? I assume you mean Drew?? but he's hardly a star player....

And as for the dal santo over reilly idea... not a chance!! ridiculous. Reilly is just as good and not to mention his reported leadership for the non sa boys!! he is invaluable and he will have a great year this year i can feel it!!

I reckon if we had have chosen Dal santo instead he would be back in Vic by now. Mind you, its getting to the stage where Reilly has to do more than just mentor the Vic kids. Its make or break year for Reilly IMO.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

I reckon that's a safe bet!

ahhh bugger. I though I deleted that in time. I looked at the first 4 and thought he must have had a big night.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

I agree that we have had some questionable selections/ trades in the past!

I have always regretted that we didn't keep Cornes long enough to pick up his boys with the father son selection, but i'm not sure who liam Petrie is?? I assume you mean Drew?? but he's hardly a star player....

And as for the dal santo over reilly idea... not a chance!! ridiculous. Reilly is just as good and not to mention his reported leadership for the non sa boys!! he is invaluable and he will have a great year this year i can feel it!!

totally agree

lets add Radar knows how to win his own footy and is very good at stoppages

 

[hendo8888]

Take the 2000 draft for example
Using the 6 picks we took in the draft but taking the best players available, instead of who we took
We would have KCornes/SBurgoyne/DKerr, A McPhee/MWilliams, Newman, Cross, still Johncock, Cox
Instead we ended up with Angwin, Handby, Smith, Skipworth, Johncock and Richardson

With those 6 players, we could have built a dynasty, instead we got 1 player of any value.

Same deal with 2001
Say we didn't trade for Fitzy
Then took the best players available
We could have Steve Johnson, Sam Mitchell, Dane Swan, Brian Lake
Instead of Brent Reilly, Fitzy, Ben Finnin, Jacob Schuback

2002
Don't trade for Carey
Take 4 players (we took 3 and had Carey so would have to take 4)
Wells/Mackie/Salopek/McIntosh, Malceski/KSimpson, Craig Bolton, Aaron Sandilands
Still get our 3 rookies in Bock, Mattner, Rutten
In a weak draft where noone really got anything of much value we could have dominated

2003
Don't trade for Scott Stevens (even though we got a great return from him)
Take 4 players
Could have Jed Adcock, Sam Fisher, Shane Tuck, Michael Johnson
Instead of Watts, Krueger, Stevens, Hudson

2004
Still trade Stenglein and get Thompson
We pretty much got as good as we could have out of the Draft
Scott Thompson, Nathan Van Berlo, Gibson (could have been Daniel Pratt or Matt Egan), Ivan Maric, Chris Knights

I could go on, but i won't

 

[kulak]

Take the 2000 draft for example
Using the 6 picks we took in the draft but taking the best players available, instead of who we took
We would have KCornes/SBurgoyne/DKerr, A McPhee/MWilliams, Newman, Cross, still Johncock, Cox
Instead we ended up with Angwin, Handby, Smith, Skipworth, Johncock and Richardson

With those 6 players, we could have built a dynasty, instead we got 1 player of any value.

Same deal with 2001
Say we didn't trade for Fitzy
Then took the best players available
We could have Steve Johnson, Sam Mitchell, Dane Swan, Brian Lake
Instead of Brent Reilly, Fitzy, Ben Finnin, Jacob Schuback

2002
Don't trade for Carey
Take 4 players (we took 3 and had Carey so would have to take 4)
Wells/Mackie/Salopek/McIntosh, Malceski/KSimpson, Craig Bolton, Aaron Sandilands
Still get our 3 rookies in Bock, Mattner, Rutten
In a weak draft where noone really got anything of much value we could have dominated

2003
Don't trade for Scott Stevens (even though we got a great return from him)
Take 4 players
Could have Jed Adcock, Sam Fisher, Shane Tuck, Michael Johnson
Instead of Watts, Krueger, Stevens, Hudson

2004
Still trade Stenglein and get Thompson
We pretty much got as good as we could have out of the Draft
Scott Thompson, Nathan Van Berlo, Gibson (could have been Daniel Pratt or Matt Egan), Ivan Maric, Chris Knights

I could go on, but i won't

Fantastic, that's the spirit

 

[Geoffa32]

The main error we made in all this is in not getting Matthew Pavlich. The club went after Carey instead as we were banging on the door of a flag, which 05/06 proved. Use that pick to get Pav instead of Carey and we could be a four time premiership side. I think us not having Pavlich is karma for getting Macca.

The Chad Cornes one is interesting. Had Graham of stayed on as coach in 1995 we may not have Andrew Mcleod. Cornes liked Chris Groom and I doubt the worst deal in AFL history would have gone through. Would have two flags without Macca?? Sure we would have Chad, but I would rather two flags. The club did make a blunder in that Graham offered to sit on the board for a year, qualifying his sons under the old rule for us.

 

[Rave Slave]

Who is this Liam Petrie you speak of?

Drew?

 

[kulak]

Who is this Liam Petrie you speak of?

Drew?

Yes

I don't know who Liam Petrie is either

Although I now note that Drew Petrie may have been father-son, depending on where on wikipedia I look.

 

[Mego Red]

Take the 2000 draft for example...

Every single club can play this game. The draft has a low strike rate for everybody. You can't say "yes, but what if we had a perfect strike rate, then we'd be awesome!"

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

What if we employed a hitman to assassinate Buddy Franklin, and then sabotaged all the other teams buses on the road to the 07 GF.

We would have won.

This game is easy.

 

[Dandy_GO]

What if Jacob Schuback... HAD CHAINSAW HANDS?

 

[jo172]

FWIW if Graham Cornes coached an extra year we may never have had Blighty ...

What if Darren Jarman and Mathew Robran were inaugral players and we never had to trade for them?

 

[kulak]

What if Darren Jarman and Mathew Robran were inaugral players and we never had to trade for them?

...and Brett Chalmers!!!

 

[King Elvis]

The main error we made in all this is in not getting Matthew Pavlich. The club went after Carey instead as we were banging on the door of a flag, which 05/06 proved. Use that pick to get Pav instead of Carey and we could be a four time premiership side. I think us not having Pavlich is karma for getting Macca.

That's the big one, in all aspects.

The rest, when it comes to drafting, are all, in reality, educated guesses.

Pavlich was already on the way to being a proven performer by then - Carey was already old, injured and slowing down.

Biggest ****-up the Club has made, and no doubt in my mind it cost us at least one flag.

 

[Hondo]

That's the big one, in all aspects.

The rest, when it comes to drafting, are all, in reality, educated guesses.

Pavlich was already on the way to being a proven performer by then - Carey was already old, injured and slowing down.

Biggest ****-up the Club has made, and no doubt in my mind it cost us at least one flag.

In hindsight, yes I agree. However, at the time I agreed with it. Even the club agrees, in hindsight.

The Bode one was just plain stupid. That was the draft pick Hawthorn gave us for Shaun Rehn. We could have drafted a career star player to replace a career star player. But we didn't.

Both are good reasons why trading for established players achieves short-term results v what could be achieved by putting your faith in the recruiters' ability to find young talent. I hope we never trade a first round draft pick again unless it's for someone like an Adam Cooney. For some other club's cast-off then forget it!

The thing is that every club could do a what-if-only draft analysis and we'd have 16 premiership teams!

 

[tribey]

2. Matthew Pavlich

Draft him with pick 75 in the 1998 National Draft.

Cost: 8-ish years of good service from Ken McGregor.

Despite the club having intimate knowledge of both Pavlich and McGregor via Mark Mickan, if you backtrack to 1998 when Pav and KMac were both 16/17 year olds, you can understand why the Crows (or Port) didn't take the punt to use their ONE 17-year old pick on Matthew.

On what the recruiters had to go on at the time, Pavlich was a sixteen year old (turned 17 a month or two after the draft on 31-12-98) with dodgy shoulders who would've measured less than ample KPP height (he maxed out as an adult at just 192cms) - so we can assume he would've been in the 185-188cm range at that time. He'd also done a Dangerfield and pledged to spend 1999 at Sacred Heart doing his SACE.

Who would risk such a rare pick on an injury-prone midfielder/flanker - especially one with bad shoulders, anathema to a KPF, at such an early age? One that was going to have his head buried in textbooks and schoolwork for the next 12 months anyway?

Compare this to McGregor who was almost a full year older and more developed (turned 17 on 29-01-98) and who maxed out at 195cms - so we can assume he would've been at least 189-192cms at the time of drafting and looking far likelier to make it.

With hindsight we all know that 12 months later Pav had shown plenty for WWT and at the national championships to find himself one of the country's brightest prospects and a top-5 pick, but there was no way of predicting this would be the case.

As others have said, the time for the Crows to strike would've been circa 2001-2 when Pav was coming to the end of his first contract/extension and Freo was a freaking basket case on and off the field. Pick #4 (#2) and a player (Stenglein? Hewitt?) would've gotten the job done.

 

[maccas_no1]

I reckon if we had have chosen Dal santo instead he would be back in Vic by now. Mind you, its getting to the stage where Reilly has to do more than just mentor the Vic kids. Its make or break year for Reilly IMO.

Reilly should have been traded last year.