Society/Culture What makes a man a man?

[Episode IV]

Can you give any single characteristic of masculinity, let alone toxic masculinity, that cannot be displayed as a woman?

I honestly think this is a fairly stupid question, but as it has been asked more than once (by you) I'm going to answer it.

No. There isn't.

However, what you need to consider is that, as someone else has taken pains to point out, aggression (I'll use that word, but it has connotations I'm uncomfortable with) takes many forms. Physical aggression is mostly the province of the male, for what should be fairly obvious reasons.
Male aggression, however, does not require physicality - society has taken pains over the millennia to eliminate that aspect. Particularly in the West, where male violence, particularly against women, has been diminishing gradually for a very long time, despite what you're led to believe.

Now, I'm aware that the subject of biological determinism has been rejected in entirety by some members of this forum; however, there are some aspects of it which must be addressed and understood if one is to arrive at solutions to issues.

Modern society seeks to repress male energy, and I believe this is a mistake. It should be channeled, harnessed, not suppressed.

The words Equity and Equality seem to mean different things to different people.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Modern society seeks to repress male energy, and I believe this is a mistake. It should be channeled, harnessed, not suppressed.

Okay, how? Into what?

 

[the_interloper]

I honestly think this is a fairly stupid question, but as it has been asked more than once (by you) I'm going to answer it.

No. There isn't.

However, what you need to consider is that, as someone else has taken pains to point out, aggression (I'll use that word, but it has connotations I'm uncomfortable with) takes many forms. Physical aggression is mostly the province of the male, for what should be fairly obvious reasons.
Male aggression, however, does not require physicality - society has taken pains over the millennia to eliminate that aspect. Particularly in the West, where male violence, particularly against women, has been diminishing gradually for a very long time, despite what you're led to believe.

Now, I'm aware that the subject of biological determinism has been rejected in entirety by some members of this forum; however, there are some aspects of it which must be addressed and understood if one is to arrive at solutions to issues.

Modern society seeks to repress male energy, and I believe this is a mistake. It should be channeled, harnessed, not suppressed.

The words Equity and Equality seem to mean different things to different people.

I did say in another thread on here similar, blokes need some sort of outlet, preferably involving physical exertion, an idle bloke can be dangerous to those around them. Gym, martial arts, sport etc etc all positive outlets.

 

[mrherman]

Okay, how? Into what?

start dating and head out in to society and experience the real world rather than sit at home listning to lectures run by lectures

 

[Johnny Bananas]

start dating and head out in to society and experience the real world rather than sit at home listning to lectures run by lectures

I love how you make a boatload of assumptions about my life based on nothing. Until now I thought nothing you'd written on this site was worth reading, and now I'm even more convinced of that.

 

[mrherman]

I love how you make a boatload of assumptions about my life based on nothing. Until now I thought nothing you'd written on this site was worth reading, and now I'm even more convinced of that.

your input to this thread. forget the you tube videos of Andrew Tate vs the Tate haters, just go out and enjoy life

 

[dorianyates]

I did say in another thread on here similar, blokes need some sort of outlet, preferably involving physical exertion, an idle bloke can be dangerous to those around them. Gym, martial arts, sport etc etc all positive outlets.

When God made man the devil was at his elbow sort of thing?

 

[CM86]

Modern society seeks to repress male energy.

Masculine energy and male energy are just terms for the same thing.
You just pointed out how painfully obvious that the positive traits of masculinity are not confined to being male.

I honestly think this is a fairly stupid question, but as it has been asked more than once (by you) I'm going to answer it.

No. There isn't.

However, what you need to consider is that, as someone else has taken pains to point out, aggression (I'll use that word, but it has connotations I'm uncomfortable with) takes many forms. Physical aggression is mostly the province of the male, for what should be fairly obvious reasons.
Male aggression, however, does not require physicality - society has taken pains over the millennia to eliminate that aspect. Particularly in the West, where male violence, particularly against women, has been diminishing gradually for a very long time, despite what you're led to believe.

Now, I'm aware that the subject of biological determinism has been rejected in entirety by some members of this forum; however, there are some aspects of it which must be addressed and understood if one is to arrive at solutions to issues.

Modern society seeks to repress male energy, and I believe this is a mistake. It should be channeled, harnessed, not suppressed.

The words Equity and Equality seem to mean different things to different people.

We can point out that there are many aspects of 'masculinity' that we should promote, grow, channel, harness etc etc.

I keep pointing out that we should promote, channel, et al ALL of the positive aspects of 'masculinity', without needing to keep the negative aspects.

1. There is no positive aspect of masculinity that is sex based.
2. Masculinity is an umbrella term that includes aspects harmful to society.
3. So we should promote, channel et al the positive aspects to all society, rather than insisting on dragging harmful and damaging aspects, just because they are 'masculine'.


Men not being allowed to fail, to cry, to ask for help, to have moments of weakness, respond with violence. Etc.
To say sorry, to forgive, to forget, to empathise. To accept that their son is a homosexual...
These are aspects of 'toxic masculinity'. And they do not help men, or society. So there is no reason to insist we keep them.


When you say we need to keep 'masculinity', you insist on dragging the aspects that are negative for men and society.
Why don't you just insist on the need to promote and channel positive traits of humans?

 

[CM86]

I think the people who cannot understand why masculinity and femininity are redundant terms, are mostly males who cannot ever view a female as equal.

 

[dorianyates]

I honestly think this is a fairly stupid question, but as it has been asked more than once (by you) I'm going to answer it.

No. There isn't.

However, what you need to consider is that, as someone else has taken pains to point out, aggression (I'll use that word, but it has connotations I'm uncomfortable with) takes many forms. Physical aggression is mostly the province of the male, for what should be fairly obvious reasons.
Male aggression, however, does not require physicality - society has taken pains over the millennia to eliminate that aspect. Particularly in the West, where male violence, particularly against women, has been diminishing gradually for a very long time, despite what you're led to believe.

Now, I'm aware that the subject of biological determinism has been rejected in entirety by some members of this forum; however, there are some aspects of it which must be addressed and understood if one is to arrive at solutions to issues.

Modern society seeks to repress male energy, and I believe this is a mistake. It should be channeled, harnessed, not suppressed.

The words Equity and Equality seem to mean different things to different people.

I agree that biology does play a big part in the differences between male and female aggression.
I don’t agree with what you say about society repressing male aggression. I think society has many options to channel male aggression through its various sports like footy, Bjj and martial arts. It should focus more on humanities in high school and more male teachers in both primary and high schools. Quite often young boys need a male role model and if it isn’t at home the state should supply one at school.

I also want to address males in the work force. Males working in factories for example. Do you believe there is a feeling of alienation? Men doing menial work for pay - necessary but depressing. There has to be strong union to support workers but there also needs to be a lead up in education to prepare people for the reality of what their work entails.

 

[dorianyates]

In addition, a male working a factory job doing a specific monotonous task to repeat hour after hour. It’s the fact he cannot “grow” that would cause angst despite the many shitty attempts of what society offers him as distraction these days in addition to job insecurity.
Men were not meant to be robots - men need a goal without it what’s the point?

 

[CM86]

Men were not meant to be robots - men need a goal without it what’s the point?

That's the same for women, right?
Like you're talking about humans. Not male vs female?

 

[Andre]

I think the people who cannot understand why masculinity and femininity are redundant terms, are mostly males who cannot ever view a female as equal.

Equality doesn’t mean identical. Usual proviso of everyone’s different, but across cultures and times there are certain behaviours and things that are more likely to be expressed or wanted by one gender or the other. This doesn’t mean any of them are better, or can’t be held / wanted by one gender only. Grouping those more held / wanted by men as masculine and women as feminine, doesn’t preclude the other as ‘not allowed’ them or make one set better than the other.

Where alienation of men took off, is turning this into some of zero sum game, where ‘Team feminine traits’ are now (validly) much more appreciated, so ‘Team masculine traits’ must be torn down. It flew past equality into ‘now your ‘side’ gets undervalued, so if you want anything renounce your masculinity’ for too many unfortunately, to the benefit of no one.

 

[dorianyates]

That's the same for women, right?
Like you're talking about humans. Not male vs female?

No I’m not talking about male vs female. I’m not female so I don’t believe im qualified to speak about them.

 

[Episode IV]

I did say in another thread on here similar, blokes need some sort of outlet, preferably involving physical exertion, an idle bloke can be dangerous to those around them. Gym, martial arts, sport etc etc all positive outlets.

I said I was uncomfortable with the term "aggression" because it tends to make people think of the physical aspects... which are the most obvious difference between male and female but there's more to it than that.
You're right, and I agree that men tend to need a physical outlet more than women. We are, of course, speaking in generalities.
But I think it's more that men need something to do more than women. To take action. Something to focus on.
I also think that women determine what that action is (in one way or another) most of the time, whether that is conscious on the part of either, or not.

 

[Episode IV]

When you say we need to keep 'masculinity', you insist on dragging the aspects that are negative for men and society.
Why don't you just insist on the need to promote and channel positive traits of humans?

I really don't know where you get some of this stuff from.

 

[Episode IV]

I agree that biology does play a big part in the differences between male and female aggression.
I don’t agree with what you say about society repressing male aggression. I think society has many options to channel male aggression through its various sports like footy, Bjj and martial arts. It should focus more on humanities in high school and more male teachers in both primary and high schools. Quite often young boys need a male role model and if it isn’t at home the state should supply one at school.

The evolution of male and female, both physically and sociologically, has been influenced by both biological and social factors.
Like I said above, the word "aggression" is too limiting.

I also want to address males in the work force. Males working in factories for example. Do you believe there is a feeling of alienation? Men doing menial work for pay - necessary but depressing. There has to be strong union to support workers but there also needs to be a lead up in education to prepare people for the reality of what their work entails.

There definitely is. But that is also shaped by the social role... men don't have as many problems doing any sort of work, as long as there is a reason for them to do it. Simple "survival" isn't enough.

I'm toying with the idea of the gradual disassemble traditional family values and gender roles playing a part in it, but haven't formed a full opinion on that as yet. Suffice to say that declining birthrates in the West and in similar modern societies aren't only the result of economic woes - they never have been in the past, and they aren't now... although it does make a convenient surface explanation.

 

[dorianyates]

Masculine energy and male energy are just terms for the same thing.
You just pointed out how painfully obvious that the positive traits of masculinity are not confined to being male.


We can point out that there are many aspects of 'masculinity' that we should promote, grow, channel, harness etc etc.

I keep pointing out that we should promote, channel, et al ALL of the positive aspects of 'masculinity', without needing to keep the negative aspects.

1. There is no positive aspect of masculinity that is sex based.
2. Masculinity is an umbrella term that includes aspects harmful to society.
3. So we should promote, channel et al the positive aspects to all society, rather than insisting on dragging harmful and damaging aspects, just because they are 'masculine'.


Men not being allowed to fail, to cry, to ask for help, to have moments of weakness, respond with violence. Etc.
To say sorry, to forgive, to forget, to empathise. To accept that their son is a homosexual...
These are aspects of 'toxic masculinity'. And they do not help men, or society. So there is no reason to insist we keep them.


When you say we need to keep 'masculinity', you insist on dragging the aspects that are negative for men and society.
Why don't you just insist on the need to promote and channel positive

The evolution of make and female, both physically and sociologically, has been influenced by both biological and social factors.
Like I said above, the word "aggression" is too limiting.


There definitely is. But that is also shaped by the social role... men don't have as many problems doing any sort of work, as long as there is a reason for them to do it. Simple "survival" isn't enough.

I'm toying with the idea of the gradual disassemble traditional family values and gender roles playing a part in it, but haven't formed a full opinion on that as yet. Suffice to say that declining birthrates in the West and in similar modern societies aren't only the result of economic woes - they never have been in the past, and they aren't now... although it does make a convenient surface explanation.

This is as close to a philosophy thread that exists on Bigfooty. I prefer philosophy/psychology as it sort of exists before politics. A way to explain behaviour, the way we vote or align ourselves politically or explain our actions.

 

[Episode IV]

This is as close to a philosophy thread that exists on Bigfooty. I prefer philosophy/psychology as it sort of exists before politics. A way to explain behaviour, the way we vote or align ourselves politically or explain our actions.

The problems come in when ideology does not have philosophy as a foundation, I think.
I prefer the old ways of education, where higher education had philosophy as a base... but we're here now.

 

[CM86]

No I’m not talking about male vs female. I’m not female so I don’t believe im qualified to speak about them.

You're not all men either, right? You are just you?
All you can actually know is that you exist, if you walk that line of truth?

 

[CM86]

Equality doesn’t mean identical. Usual proviso of everyone’s different, but across cultures and times there are certain behaviours and things that are more likely to be expressed or wanted by one gender or the other. This doesn’t mean any of them are better, or can’t be held / wanted by one gender only. Grouping those more held / wanted by men as masculine and women as feminine, doesn’t preclude the other as ‘not allowed’ them or make one set better than the other.

Where alienation of men took off, is turning this into some of zero sum game, where ‘Team feminine traits’ are now (validly) much more appreciated, so ‘Team masculine traits’ must be torn down. It flew past equality into ‘now your ‘side’ gets undervalued, so if you want anything renounce your masculinity’ for too many unfortunately, to the benefit of no one.

We agree on this.
Masculine traits and feminine traits are based on observed actions over generations, based on behaviours connected to biology.
The terms exist for a reason.


But these terms also excuse negative characteristics/outcomes. Eg violence with masculinity or weakness with femininity.

It's still considered not 'masculine', to be a stay at home Dad, with a wife.
To ask for help etc.
Men's Sheds are so popular, because it's considered one of the few ways for 'real men' to quietly access mental health help, when struggling.
Homosexuality is still viewed as generally a feminised male.


"Limp wristed" is an insult, because it implies a male is feminine/homosexual.


There are positive traits of masculinity and femininity that we should promote across all of society.
Without needing to drag the negative aspects with them.

 

[barreness]

Autism and a phat ****.

What makes seeds a seed? a far more fascinating question