When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[La Dispute]

Sadly, I don’t think one or 2 high draft picks will turn it round. Issue for Carlton is many of our high draft picks have gone backwards after a year or 2. They become used to a losing environment. Hence the cultural problem. Think if the youngsters on the Carlton
list were in a better environment then you’ll see a lot of improvement.

Judd’s book is an interesting read. He said when he went from a successful West Coast to a losing Carlton he noticed a huge difference in standards. Too many Carlton players looked too comfortable. Overpaid and happy with 80% effort. Carlton’s best years in the last 25 was when Judd was captain. He drove standards.

How do you fix it? Yes, some players need a kick. You only need 2 or 3 players to be giving 80% and the opposition will expose you. But it’s needs more than one hard coach. High standards need to be expected and enforced from across the footy department. Don’t think Brad Lloyd is exactly the answer, either. A Neil Balme type would be perfect, then a hard coach. Need senior players that are comfortable with being uncomfortable. Otherwise, Carlton will continue to wallow in the bottom to mid tier part of the ladder.



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There's a lot to be said about the general conduct of the players after they score goals. So many curated celebrations, Tik Tok style handshakes and quirky hand signals. Childish stuff that has no place on a football field, but we seem to put up with it because the coaching group wont tell the players to pull their heads in.

The younger guys are just so used to losing they don't even relinquish any joy from it - the games play out as a bit of a hit out in the park, but at least in 120 minutes of mostly rubbish they had their 30 seconds to shine.

As painful as it is to watch, Jack Riewoldt's stoic deadpan after kicking a goal is bang on symbolically.

 

[Gavin Excell]

An unhappy, disconnected and confused group will never work

This has been a consistent theme of your posting last few months
Not discrediting it by any stretch, just wonder if this is what you think is occurring at Carlton or what you know?

 

[Soapy V]

This has been a consistent theme of your posting last few months
Not discrediting it by any stretch, just wonder if this is what you think is occurring at Carlton or what you know?

I know and I don't say this lightly at all. I'm there nearly every week and know many players and family members. I don't know much but this I do

 

[werdna78]

If the standards are driven by the players and this is what they accept, Carlton FC will never arrive, until the attitude of accepting mediocrity changes.

 

[Noidnadroj]

By culture what do you mean...lazy? You have a lot of players who are inwards focused and do not push themselves to do the hard things. Is that culture?

I think a large part of it is around the list. Quite simply, they have built a list of lazy footballers. Can that be coached out of them? Possibly. Possibly not.

And I'm going to continue saying this till the cows come home...the mids are just not up to scratch. How many years have the club been building their list and they are totally reliant on a 2nd year gun. Madness. There's some young kids who may come through but again, they may not.

That's not culture. That's list management imo.

Correct! You could have the world’s greatest culture, but whilst you have Ed Curnow - who is almost finished - as your third best midfielder you are not going anywhere until this list deficiency is addressed. It has become an even bigger issue with the Cripps of 2020-21 playing B-grade football.

I’d bite the bullet and trade out a flanker with some half decent currency - Martin or Fisher (I’d trade out one of Williams or Saad if I could) and try to get higher in the draft and go in with 2 x top-10 picks and get the 2 best mids.

So give your second rounder (pick 22?) plus Fisher or Martin for about pick-10.



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[sparkyblue]

As this thread notes, there are question marks or known deficiencies in multiple areas right now. The outcomes of this review needs to triage these problems and ensure the setup is right from the top-down, primarily across the footy dept. There's no sense in drafting or trading players if we don't have the coaches to develop or implement a half-way decent gameplan. We're perenially shuffling deckchairs on the Titanic. I could live with minimal player movement if we can at least spend the rest of this season and the offseason getting the right (experienced) people in.

Some cattle movement would be good, but I'd rather a competent crew be given a chance to work out what we actually have before we decide what we think we need.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

The review should start with whoever thought it was a good idea to give a Godfather offer to Zac Williams.

Zac ******* Williams.

 

[owen87]

The review should start with whoever thought it was a good idea to give a Godfather offer to Zac Williams.

Zac ******* Williams.

Bring Back SOS you think?

 

[SurreyBlue]

I need to stop coming into this thread. It's not good for my health watching opposition supporters trolling.

 

[La Dispute]

I need to stop coming into this thread. It's not good for my health watching opposition supporters trolling.

It’s very low rent trolling, I’m disappointed in the quality tbh.

A lot of Bombres supporters really missing out on a golden opportunity, AND their heroic team lost to us.

 

[La Dispute]

The review should start with whoever thought it was a good idea to give a Godfather offer to Zac Williams.

Zac ******* Williams.

Imagine paying Dylan Shiel the same amount to sit on the sidelines

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Imagine paying Dylan Shiel the same amount to sit on the sidelines

Isn't that called doing a Mitch McGovern? Or is it a Jack Martin? Can't keep up.

 

[Soapy V]

I need to stop coming into this thread. It's not good for my health watching opposition supporters trolling.

I just ignore and look to real discussion. I really don’t care about other clubs

 

[La Dispute]

Isn't that called doing a Mitch McGovern? Or is it a Jack Martin? Can't keep up.

If only

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I need to stop coming into this thread. It's not good for my health watching opposition supporters trolling.

It’s just a game at the end of the day mate. If it’s hurting your mental health take a break!

We’ll get our go eventually. Though it’s somewhat sad that Bombers fans think a rise to 10th means it’s their go! I guess after a decade of drug scandals and being belted in elimination finals this would be pretty sweet

 

[HirdyLannister]

Sad seeing Carlton supporters derailing this thread to deflect from their own failings.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

They were building a list... then got impatient and blew their salary cap on players who just aren't hungry enough.

Carlton already regretting signing ‘lazy’ Zac Williams on monster $4.8m deal

Carlton star Zac Williams has come under fire for a run of poor form after making the move from GWS in the off-season.

www.news.com.au

That's the issue. We don't seem to be able to convince players to buy in. There's not that whole of club hunger to succeed. So unless you're a walsh/Weitering self driven freak you won't really go anywhere special at Carlton.

 

[fuic08]

To be honest I’m not even sure it’s correct that Teague unshackled the Blues. Bolton was failing because of lack of talent whether that be because of poor development or poor drafting. He was persisting with young players who were performing poorly in their position.

Teague took over and pushed Curnow and Murphy back into the midfield then moved Daisy Thomas to HBF to secure a few meaningless wins in the back half of the season.

Tbh I don’t mind making young players earn their chances in the seconds or in lesser roles the problem was I got the feeling Bolton was told to play the youth and look to the future then got sacked for it. Which wouldn’t be too big of a problem if the guy they brought in knew how to coach but I don’t think he does.

The Bolton coached blues had clear structure and set up behind the ball in a very Hawthorn like way but had no chance of overcoming their horrible midfield.

Fast forward 2 years and now Carlton are on paper a much more talented side who are still stuck with a shallow midfield but now they don’t seem to have any defensive structure.

Overall I’d say the Blues still have plenty of time to get this right just need to develop some midfielders and get a good coaching group in place.

Carlton were forced into trying to get those meaningless wins because of SOS trading out their future first rounder. When Bolton was sacked they were on track to hand over pick 1.

 

[btdg]

To be honest I’m not even sure it’s correct that Teague unshackled the Blues. Bolton was failing because of lack of talent whether that be because of poor development or poor drafting. He was persisting with young players who were performing poorly in their position.

Teague took over and pushed Curnow and Murphy back into the midfield then moved Daisy Thomas to HBF to secure a few meaningless wins in the back half of the season.

Tbh I don’t mind making young players earn their chances in the seconds or in lesser roles the problem was I got the feeling Bolton was told to play the youth and look to the future then got sacked for it. Which wouldn’t be too big of a problem if the guy they brought in knew how to coach but I don’t think he does.

The Bolton coached blues had clear structure and set up behind the ball in a very Hawthorn like way but had no chance of overcoming their horrible midfield.

Fast forward 2 years and now Carlton are on paper a much more talented side who are still stuck with a shallow midfield but now they don’t seem to have any defensive structure.

Overall I’d say the Blues still have plenty of time to get this right just need to develop some midfielders and get a good coaching group in place.

While this is true, it was also true that the rigid defensive structure had become an issue. Under Bolton we always played one player behind the contest - always.

Against some teams that meant they had an extra at the contest. Not only were guys like Dow and Walsh being thrown to the wolves in the center in their first/second seasons but they were doing it one player short. When we got the ball back, again, the pressure on the young guys to get out of defence and create scores was immense.

Then, Richmond had pioneered the surge... this made just parking Docherty loose fraught with danger. Richmond and teams that imitated this style just loved that...

Teague put older blokes back in the middle, gave more licence to attack, and evened up numbers around the ground a bit more and it worked enough to get us a few more wins.

This year though, he's been far too inflexible. I don't think the gameplan is fatally flawed... but, it relies on fast attack and transition, but then with Curnow/McGovern/Casboukt all injured who do we attack to? McKay is playing deep and being successful. Ideally, we would have two other tall targets presenting up the ground along with the ruckman. That gives long kicking options as well as the run and carry. Right now... we are kicking long to Jack Silvagni or Cripps... just doesn't work, and the drop off from even one legged Casboult has been noticeable. Teams just sit back, wait for our defenders defenders push forward, and go back the other way too easily.

The biggest issue(at the moment - let's face it, the biggest problem is that we just keep losing) is Teagus inability to be flexible. Hardwick lost his CHF in 2017bso he invesnted the surge and won a premiership. Teague lost his tall forwards and... persisted to the point that the players have lost all hear and confidence.

Certainly not the only issue but it is a huge one.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

I don’t think it is as bad as it seems from the outside. They aren’t getting belted by better teams, which suggests that either the talent is there, or the coach is getting the best out of an average list. I would suggest the former as player development and fitness are still issues. They have list holes like every other club and Carlton supporters know their list better than opposition posters.

 

[Red_man2008]

Wtf is the point of this club? Just fold or merge them with saints

Carlton could buy your club 9 times over.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Carlton could buy your club 9 times over.

Typical Carlton answer - throw money at the problem. Arguably why the club is in such a poor position in the first place.

 

[Red_man2008]

I’m still optimistic as a Carlton fan. Players don’t want to leave. McKay and soon Cripps to re-sign. We could arguably have the best spine going forward. We have the fourth worst injury list currently and we have 3 players in important roles that are learning to play our system still. Cohesion takes 3-4 years playing together. Pittonet has heaps of upside as does TDK. Cripps has been injured all year. Charlie once he returns has only played 11 games with McKay and McGovern. Weitering and Jones are the first and fourth best one on one defenders in the AFL. Walsh will win a Brownlow in the next 2-3 years is getting tagged in his 3rd year. If Cripps had a full preseason and was fully fit that couldn’t possibly happen. Game Plan is atrocious or at least our players understanding of it is. Players hand off responsibility and give up marks easily through the middle of the ground. Particularly to GWS we always have. The last 3-4 years GWS have done this to us. Another top 5 pick with honey Durdin Ramsay Carroll kemp Boyd and parks coming on is a healthy vfl contingent of kids. We also just replaced our midfield stoppage coach (now luke power) which will take time. I don’t expect huge growth over the remaining 10 games but I did expect finals this year with what we added. But I didn’t expect so much to go wrong. It’s no coincidence the the best injury lists in the AFL are all in the top 8. Carlton have been dogged by injury for far too long.

 

[Red_man2008]

Isn't that called doing a Mitch McGovern? Or is it a Jack Martin? Can't keep up.

The great thing about both these deals was Carlton having 105% of the salary cap to spend and front loaded them heavily. I’d be surprised if either were getting more than 500k currently. 2 of our 5 recent trades were also free of picks. Allowing us to pick up Carroll, Honey, Stocker, Kemp.

 

[WillHayward]

Carlton could buy your club 9 times over.

Bruce Matheson and Jeannie Pratt running the joint.
Definitely part of the problem and nothing to brag about.