Analysis Whole of Club issue - not one single factor to the Crows demise

[Sanders]

He's not the Lone Ranger there with our guys over the last 2 seasons either.

True. Unfortunately too true

 

[Freomaniac]

You are not going to tell me that Mackay is a better player than Grigg. There are players that were worse than Mitch Grigg who had far greater careers. Not just at our club.

Bingo and Zac Dawson is one of them

 

[jackster83]

He was an average footballer at the level. Good kick, but not much else.

Came on as a sub a lot when the game slowed down for him.

He bulked up way too much also. Lost his agility and sidestep, which exacerbated the pace issue.

 

[Freomaniac]

The whole irony in this is that a lot of people, including myself, would tell you that option A is not good enough. The comparisons to Melbourne and Port are a blight on them, not a a great compliment to us. If you are not winning flags you are nowhere. Finishing 5-8 consistently, which we have done, means nothing.

As for the comparison between Craig and Eade between 2005 and 2009, I would prefer neither. I would prefer that we were like Geelong, Hawthorn, West Coast or Sydney in that time period. They got it done when it mattered, we didn't.

As for the next 2 questions, I said nothing of the sort. Going 19 years between grand finals is the definition of mediocrity, not that it bothers a lot of our supporters, which pisses me off immensely. I expect success every year, that is what great clubs do in any sport, whether that is realistic or not. Sadly, you are better off not making finals if you are not in the top 4 and in the race for the flag, which we have done a lot of over the last 20 years. That is how the system is set up.

I'll concede to you on the Freo West Coast comparison.

Ok here we go......

1st of all, I do respect your opinions as you want your team be successfull. But you need to be realistic sometimes.

Ok You said Opition A isnt good enough. 2 premierships and the rest of the 20 years or 18 years of no finals. Fair enough.

Lets talk about the 1st bolded and underlined bit. I agree that the comparisons of the Crows down periods of 2-3 years in various periods and Melbournes Dire period of 2007-17 and Ports horror years of 2008-2012 are a blight on Melbourne and Port. We can agree that the demons from 2007-17 were badly run. You can blame crows fans for liam jurrah getting drunk and chasing random people with a machete. You cant blame crows fans that Port had tarps at footy park in 2008-12 either, thats ports fault and their fault only.

You also said that if your not winning flags, you are no where. If you are contending, you are heading to a path somewhere, better than nowhere. finishing 5th to 8th on the ladder, means nothing. I disagree. In 2014, both Port and North finished 5th to 8th on the ladder and both win 2 finals and made prelims. In 2016, dogs finished 7th and win a flag winning 4 finals. In 2019, GWS made a grand final from 5th winning 3 finals.

Now for the 2nd bit bolded bit. I asked you if you rather have the Neil Craig era of 2005-9 or Rodney eades dogs era of 2008-10 and you said neither.finals in 2007-9. Eade had 3 prelims in each of those 3 years of losing the Qualifying final, winning the semi and losing the grand final. Again, both coaches in those periods had coached 9 finals and each got a 3 win and 6 loss record. Neil Craig had losing prelims of 2005-6 and I said YOU had to Choose one.

And After Careful consideration, Given the choice, I narrowly chose Neil Craigs era of 2005-9. Only because it was 5 straight years of finals meaning 5 straight years of stability and on field competitiveness. Eades 3 prelims of 2008-10 wasnt an easy feat either.

Now for the last bolded bit....

You expect success every year. I hate to break it to you..... thats going to be difficult. No chance in hell your team is going to be like Manchester United in English Soccer or Real Madrid in Spanish Soccer. You claim going 19 years without a grand final is mediocrity, so whats would you decribe a team going 5-10 years in a row with no finals?

So if your not in the top 4, your not chasing the flag? Sorry but that is wrong.

 

[Freomaniac]

All 4 would be in EVERYONE's starting 18

easily in half of the AFLs side.

Scott Lycett is a solid ruckman but theres at least 5-6 rucks I would choose before Scott Lycett

 

[Thetrader15]

his meters gained shows how short and sideways his give offs are

and he slows our ball movement and forward thrusts. He has gone backwards majorly in recent times

he is a momentum vacuum too often

Maybe it's just hidden when he plays along side Jake Kelly

 

[Thetrader15]

He's fitter, he works harder and his kicking is actually a lot more solid than some would believe

It's a while ago, but Grigg ran 14.13 in his draft beep tst while Matt did 13.7

 

[hey shorty]

It's a while ago, but Grigg ran 14.13 in his draft beep tst while Matt did 13.7

It was a big issue for Matt earlier in his career, but he has always worked hard on it.

Beep tests arent a huge indicator of footy fitness though.

 

[BronCrow]

Ok here we go......

1st of all, I do respect your opinions as you want your team be successfull. But you need to be realistic sometimes.

Ok You said Opition A isnt good enough. 2 premierships and the rest of the 20 years or 18 years of no finals. Fair enough.

Lets talk about the 1st bolded and underlined bit. I agree that the comparisons of the Crows down periods of 2-3 years in various periods and Melbournes Dire period of 2007-17 and Ports horror years of 2008-2012 are a blight on Melbourne and Port. We can agree that the demons from 2007-17 were badly run. You can blame crows fans for liam jurrah getting drunk and chasing random people with a machete. You cant blame crows fans that Port had tarps at footy park in 2008-12 either, thats ports fault and their fault only.

You also said that if your not winning flags, you are no where. If you are contending, you are heading to a path somewhere, better than nowhere. finishing 5th to 8th on the ladder, means nothing. I disagree. In 2014, both Port and North finished 5th to 8th on the ladder and both win 2 finals and made prelims. In 2016, dogs finished 7th and win a flag winning 4 finals. In 2019, GWS made a grand final from 5th winning 3 finals.

Now for the 2nd bit bolded bit. I asked you if you rather have the Neil Craig era of 2005-9 or Rodney eades dogs era of 2008-10 and you said neither.finals in 2007-9. Eade had 3 prelims in each of those 3 years of losing the Qualifying final, winning the semi and losing the grand final. Again, both coaches in those periods had coached 9 finals and each got a 3 win and 6 loss record. Neil Craig had losing prelims of 2005-6 and I said YOU had to Choose one.

And After Careful consideration, Given the choice, I narrowly chose Neil Craigs era of 2005-9. Only because it was 5 straight years of finals meaning 5 straight years of stability and on field competitiveness. Eades 3 prelims of 2008-10 wasnt an easy feat either.

Now for the last bolded bit....

You expect success every year. I hate to break it to you..... thats going to be difficult. No chance in hell your team is going to be like Manchester United in English Soccer or Real Madrid in Spanish Soccer. You claim going 19 years without a grand final is mediocrity, so whats would you decribe a team going 5-10 years in a row with no finals?

So if your not in the top 4, your not chasing the flag? Sorry but that is wrong.

Right, it would appear that we would agree on the first part. Correct me if that isn't that isn't the case.

Sorry, can't agree on the second part. Outside of the Bulldogs in 2016 and us in 1998, no side has looked like winning a flag from outside the top 4. We only won the flag in 1998 after a massive loss in the first week of the finals to Melbourne, and due to an anomaly in the system at the time were not bundled out in the first week. You are not normally a genuine contender if you are not in the top 4 at the end of the minor round. As for your points about 2014, both those clubs did make the prelim in that year after finishing 5th to 8th. Certainly in North's case they got found out in the prelim. They were never genuine contenders that year.

I stand by what I said about choosing between Craig and Eade. To indulge you, I would probably pick Eade, as I think 3 prelims on the trott with that side was a fair effort, and I thought were probably robbed of a victory in 2009. I am sorry, but I don't Craig as a finals coach, and plenty of other Crows supporters don't either. The Crows record once they made finals has not been flash for a long time. From 2007-2009, we won 1 final, against an Essendon side that lost more games than they won. We even somehow managed to lose at home to Collingwood in 2008, who barely scrapped in.

Whether it is realistic or not, YES, I expect success every year. Every club should, otherwise you are wasting your time. I am aware that the AFL are trying to stop that from being the case. Whilst yes, on face value, 5-10 years without finals is mediocrity, if you then won 4 flags and 5 grand finals in the next 10 years, I think you would take that. I am sure most Hawthorn supporters do.

Refer to some of my earlier points about chasing the flag if not in the top 4. You are not really in contention if you are not in the top 4, history tells us that. If you are consistently falling into the finals, which the Crows have done a lot of over the years, all the stars have to align to somehow win a flag. That doesn't happen very often. In reality, you are nowhere finishing 7th and 8th regularly. Essendon are another example of this.

 

[Mutineer]

It's a while ago, but Grigg ran 14.13 in his draft beep tst while Matt did 13.7

And from the day he was drafted Matt worked his ass off to improve his tank which was quite average having never done anything remotely like a full pre-season with the Rebels due to his cricket commitments [every chance he'd be wicket-keeping for Victoria if he'd pursued cricket], played Premier League for the Melbourne Cricket Club at 15....Mitch Grigg by all accounts wasn't quite that resolute with his preparation.

 

[skam85]

Just watching the 2013 showdown. Although we lost Mitch Grigg came on for Jarrod Lyon. Had a great quarter. What did we do badly as a club with him. Got delisted and went on to win 2 Margery Medals. Was it lack of time on the ground. Same game Hendo looked very good. Always rated him.

Walsh was a big fan of Grigg.

 

[skam85]

Ok here we go......

1st of all, I do respect your opinions as you want your team be successfull. But you need to be realistic sometimes.

Ok You said Opition A isnt good enough. 2 premierships and the rest of the 20 years or 18 years of no finals. Fair enough.

Lets talk about the 1st bolded and underlined bit. I agree that the comparisons of the Crows down periods of 2-3 years in various periods and Melbournes Dire period of 2007-17 and Ports horror years of 2008-2012 are a blight on Melbourne and Port. We can agree that the demons from 2007-17 were badly run. You can blame crows fans for liam jurrah getting drunk and chasing random people with a machete. You cant blame crows fans that Port had tarps at footy park in 2008-12 either, thats ports fault and their fault only.

You also said that if your not winning flags, you are no where. If you are contending, you are heading to a path somewhere, better than nowhere. finishing 5th to 8th on the ladder, means nothing. I disagree. In 2014, both Port and North finished 5th to 8th on the ladder and both win 2 finals and made prelims. In 2016, dogs finished 7th and win a flag winning 4 finals. In 2019, GWS made a grand final from 5th winning 3 finals.

Now for the 2nd bit bolded bit. I asked you if you rather have the Neil Craig era of 2005-9 or Rodney eades dogs era of 2008-10 and you said neither.finals in 2007-9. Eade had 3 prelims in each of those 3 years of losing the Qualifying final, winning the semi and losing the grand final. Again, both coaches in those periods had coached 9 finals and each got a 3 win and 6 loss record. Neil Craig had losing prelims of 2005-6 and I said YOU had to Choose one.

And After Careful consideration, Given the choice, I narrowly chose Neil Craigs era of 2005-9. Only because it was 5 straight years of finals meaning 5 straight years of stability and on field competitiveness. Eades 3 prelims of 2008-10 wasnt an easy feat either.

Now for the last bolded bit....

You expect success every year. I hate to break it to you..... thats going to be difficult. No chance in hell your team is going to be like Manchester United in English Soccer or Real Madrid in Spanish Soccer. You claim going 19 years without a grand final is mediocrity, so whats would you decribe a team going 5-10 years in a row with no finals?

So if your not in the top 4, your not chasing the flag? Sorry but that is wrong.

Again, a lot of words for the same end result.

All that matters is winning flags.

 

[Thetrader15]

And from the day he was drafted Matt worked his ass off to improve his tank which was quite average having never done anything remotely like a full pre-season with the Rebels due to his cricket commitments [every chance he'd be wicket-keeping for Victoria if he'd pursued cricket], played Premier League for the Melbourne Cricket Club at 15....Mitch Grigg by all accounts wasn't quite that resolute with his preparation.

What I've heard is that he was until Walshy passed then didnt get along with coaches and was pretty much told he'd be playing sanfl from then on

 

[Mutineer]

What I've heard is that he was until Walshy passed then didnt get along with coaches and was pretty much told he'd be playing sanfl from then on

Played 6 of a possible 12 matches until Walsh's passing...I think it's another Big Footy fallacy exclusive to this board. Top notch player at the lower level but never rose to that level at AFL level. 5 years on our list and no other club was knocking down his door when he was delisted. And yeah I've heard the stories he wasn't interested in playing anymore AFL etc.

 

[1970crow]

Mitch Grigg was a victim of us having a deep inside midfield brigade at the time. He was slow, lazy and unaccountable.

When we delisted him, nobody else bothered. Thrre is no shame in the career he had but hes one of countless guys whose level is in between the 2 leagues.

If After Mitch’s debut you told me that his career would finish because he couldn’t break into our strong inside midfield, I’d have laughed in your face. Mitch Grigg, inside midfielder, you’re crazy dude.

 

[hey shorty]

If After Mitch’s debut you told me that his career would finish because he couldn’t break into our strong inside midfield, I’d have laughed in your face. Mitch Grigg, inside midfielder, you’re crazy dude.

Its what he is, and sadly he wasn't good enough.

 

[1970crow]

He bulked up way too much also. Lost his agility and sidestep, which exacerbated the pace issue.

That’s not on him though, the coaches would have beefed him up because they wanted him as an inside mid despite us having been devoid of outside players for ages. Outside of Mackay that is. If they wanted him lean to play outside and maintain his agility, then his diet and program would have kept him lean.

 

[1970crow]

And from the day he was drafted Matt worked his ass off to improve his tank which was quite average having never done anything remotely like a full pre-season with the Rebels due to his cricket commitments [every chance he'd be wicket-keeping for Victoria if he'd pursued cricket], played Premier League for the Melbourne Cricket Club at 15....Mitch Grigg by all accounts wasn't quite that resolute with his preparation.

I recall Grigg running top 3 in the 2km trials.

 

[1970crow]

Its what he is, and sadly he wasn't good enough.

No, it’s what they made him and he wasn’t good enough to get a gig as an inside mid. Neither of us know how he’d have gone if they kept him lean and had a crack as an outside player. He definitely got fit enough to run the lines, no slower than Rat, better footy player than Mackay. Just not AFL quality inside mid.

 

[Mutineer]

Its what he is, and sadly he wasn't good enough.

Actually the record shows he was 82kg at the 2011 National Draft and 83kg in his last season on our list according to footywire?

I think the major part of his "bulk up" came after he left us?

 

[Mutineer]

I recall Grigg running top 3 in the 2km trials.

Did I say he didn't have a tank, I said he wasn't as resolute at his preparation according to reports back then?
He also performed well at the AFL draft in the endurance testing regimes.

 

[hey shorty]

No, it’s what they made him and he wasn’t good enough to get a gig as an inside mid. Neither of us know how he’d have gone if they kept him lean and had a crack as an outside player. He definitely got fit enough to run the lines, no slower than Rat, better footy player than Mackay. Just not AFL quality inside mid.

He wasn't much different from his first season to last in weight.

Hes got far less tricks than Rat and is slower, there is no doubting that. He'd be on a list if he did.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Grigg looked like he was going to be a player after he finished 2013 well. One of the few positives in a s**t season. Perhaps he believed that he'd made it now and was on his way? Could have coasted a fraction which he wasn't good enough to do.

Plus as a flanker/wingman we saw him as a threat to Douglas/van Berlo/Mackay so had to hurriedly shunt him into an inside midfield role where there were no spots. And by bulking up he lost his agility.

Then didn't he get injured away from the club and lie about it? Hurt his ankle at Bounce or something ridiculous and the club found out later. Lost trust and Campo was never going to pick him again.

 

[Thetrader15]

Grigg looked like he was going to be a player after he finished 2013 well. One of the few positives in a s**t season. Perhaps he believed that he'd made it now and was on his way? Could have coasted a fraction which he wasn't good enough to do.

Plus as a flanker/wingman we saw him as a threat to Douglas/van Berlo/Mackay so had to hurriedly shunt him into an inside midfield role where there were no spots. And by bulking up he lost his agility.

Then didn't he get injured away from the club and lie about it? Hurt his ankle at Bounce or something ridiculous and the club found out later. Lost trust and Campo was never going to pick him again.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[hey shorty]

Grigg looked like he was going to be a player after he finished 2013 well. One of the few positives in a s**t season. Perhaps he believed that he'd made it now and was on his way? Could have coasted a fraction which he wasn't good enough to do.

Plus as a flanker/wingman we saw him as a threat to Douglas/van Berlo/Mackay so had to hurriedly shunt him into an inside midfield role where there were no spots. And by bulking up he lost his agility.

Then didn't he get injured away from the club and lie about it? Hurt his ankle at Bounce or something ridiculous and the club found out later. Lost trust and Campo was never going to pick him again.

Douglas was still a better player at that stage.