Why do certain past champions see playing in the VFL.....

[GTOA]

...as beneath them?

I refer specifically to two past players, Paul Chapman and Jimmy Bartel.

It seems that, in both these cases, these players were offered contracts to continue, but told that some of the games may be played in the VFL. Both left, Chapman for Essendon and Bartel into retirement.

Now, why is playing in the "VFL" a dirty word? Why is it considered SO bad that players would rather leave, than stay and work through it?

I think that maybe both players should have had a better attitude. Instead of seeing this as a "demotion", why not think "Okay, the coach thinks that I won't play every game. I will show him. I will put in the pre-season of my life, if I get dropped, I will tear up the VFL, and then I will HAVE to be played, such will be my form"? Why not see it as a challenge, and an obstacle to overcome, rather than a burden and an insult?

I think that these players needed to leave their egos at the door somewhat, and while you would hope that your achievements give you credits in the bank (and in many cases, they do) that players also realise that no individual is bigger than the team, and current form means as much as past glories.

This isn't like cricket, where someone like Brad Hodge can make 1000s of runs, yet not get selected. Cricket selection policy is often political, based many times on the captain picking his mates, or someone being left out because the captain or selector doesn't like him, rather than form. AFL coaches can't afford to play politics as much, as they are under far more scrutiny, and there are more spots to fill in an AFL side than a cricket side, so your chances are better of making the side. I believe that if Chapman or Bartel had agreed to play on, even if it meant a stint in the VFL, they would have played well enough to get regular senior games in the second half of the season, and maybe go out on their terms, not the club's.

The coach may wish to play senior players in the VFL, to give younger players a game, but how do you as a player know that the opportunity won't open up anyway, due to a spate of injuries, or the youngsters don't come up. There are chances that a spot could open up again. I don't think Chris Scott did this to Chapman or Bartel out of spite, but to make spots for the next generation of players, such as Cockatoo, Lang, Thurlow, Gregson etc. So, I think that, if Bartel or Chapman showed the form in the VFL that they showed for most of their career, then I am confident that they could have got themselves back in the side soon enough, especially around finals time.

 

[Catgirl]

That's the thing though. If you're discussing a contract and your employer says you will be playing VFL before they even have the opportunity to see you perform in the year coming, it is unlikely to be a simple learning curve after an off day. It is more likely a mandate. In other words, Chapman/Bartel could have been in white hot form, but they may well have been required to play in the twos anyway. While it is a case of perhaps being too proud by refusing to play in the VFL, I'd say they've well earnt that dignity. Two Norms and a Brownlow between them - they deserved to retain their honour.

In any case, I think Bartel was finished when he did, but Chapman still had a lot to offer. In hindsight, I wish we could have brought in our youth sooner.

 

[iameviljez]

1) Because if you genuinely think you are still good enough at the level - especially if you have offers at AFL clubs - then you have every right to continue to attempt to play at that level.

2) Footy is a hugely physical sport and preparing for and surviving a season, year after year, takes a huge effort. You wouldn't want to put your body through that unless you absolutely wanted to.

Besides, you're misreading the Chapman situation anyway AFAIK - Chappy was offered one year, he wanted two, Essendon gave him two. Fair play to him.

 

[GTOA]

Let me tell you about a player from the 90's at Geelong. His name was Tim McGrath.

Now, I used to consider McGrath a bit of a spud when he first played. He always got 12 goals kicked against him by Jason Dunstall. I thought that he was hopeless and should never be played again.

However, throughout his career, McGrath kept stepping up in my estimation of him. He took Carey to the cleaners when "Duck" was in white-hot form, and kept building his reputation. I soon came to really like him as a player.

But, it was what he did after his career that really impressed me, an act that showed selflessness that is rarely shown in the game, something that showed me that McGrath bled for the club, his adopted club, which he came to from North Melbourne, he did something that should be an example to players like Chapman and Bartel.

My understanding of the story is that McGrath was retired by Geelong, before he wanted to retire. He felt that he had more to offer, the club didn't. So, did McGrath chuck his toys, whinge to the media, remind the club of all the things he had done for them and then jump to another club, like Paul Chapman did, or retire, even though he had a trigger in his contract to play on, but quit because it was seen as better than lowering yourself to play VFL? No, I believe what he did was, he went to the club, and offered to be their VFL captain.

What I can gather, McGrath offered to play on in the VFL, even though there was 0 chance of him playing seniors the next year. McGrath knew this, and accepted it, but wanted to still play for Geelong, and be an "older, wiser , head" to guide the youngsters in the VFL and show them how to do things. Be an on-field mentor to our next generation back then.

In 2002, he guided our VFL side to the VFL flag, and gave these youngsters their first taste of success, and many went onto being great players for us. Names like Gary Ablett jr, Steve Johnson, James Kelly, Corey Enright, Joel Corey etc.

Do you know two other youngsters in that team, who McGrath helped develop and mentor, by putting aside his own personal glory to give back to the club? Paul Chapman and Jimmy (then known as James) Bartel. So, when their times came to be a VFL "mentor", to guide our future premiership players in Cockatoo, Gregson, House, Stewart, Parfitt and others, maybe these guys should have swallowed their pride, look at it as an opportunity rather than a "demotion" and remembered the red-headed former star who guided them when they first started playing. At least Bartel and Chapman were still offered the chance to play SOME senior games, and would be considered for senior selection, McGrath wasn't. It is disappointing that these guys, and others, would rather retire or leave, when the club still offered them a contract, just so that they can avoid being seen running around in the lesser team.

 

[iameviljez]

Let me tell you about a player from the 90's at Geelong. His name was Tim McGrath.

Now, I used to consider McGrath a bit of a spud when he first played. He always got 12 goals kicked against him by Jason Dunstall. I think that he was hopeless and should never be played again.

However, throughout his career, McGrath kept stepping up in my estimation of him. He took Carey to the cleaners when "Duck" was in white-hot form, and kept building his reputation. I soon came to really like him as a player.

But, it was what he did after his career that really impressed me, an act that showed selflessness that is rarely shown in the game, something that showed me that McGrath bled for the club, his adopted club, which he came to from North Melbourne, he did something that should be an example to players like Chapman and Bartel.

My understanding of the story is that McGrath was retired by Geelong, before he wanted to retire. He felt that he had more to offer, the club didn't. So, did McGrath chuck his toys, whinge to the media, remind the club of all the things he had done for them and then jump to another club, like Paul Chapman did, or retire, even though he had a trigger in his contract to play on, but quit because it was seen as better than lowering yourself to play VFL? No, I believe what he did was, he went to the club, and offered to be their VFL captain.

What I can gather, McGrath offered to play on in the VFL, even though there was 0 chance of him playing seniors the next year. McGrath knew this, and accepted it, but wanted to still play for Geelong, and be an "older, wiser , head" to guide the youngsters in the VFL and show them how to do things. Be an on-field mentor to our next generation back then.

In 2002, he guided our VFL side to the VFL flag, and gave these youngsters their first taste of success, and many went onto being great players for us. Names like Gary Ablett jr, Steve Johnson, James Kelly, Corey Enright, Joel Corey etc.

Do you know two other youngsters in that team, who McGrath helped develop and mentor, by putting aside his own personal glory to give back to the club? Paul Chapman and Jimmy (then known as James) Bartel. So, when their times came to be a VFL "mentor", to guide our future premiership players in Cockatoo, Gregson, House, Stewart, Parfitt and others, maybe these guys should have swallowed their pride, look at it as an opportunity rather than a "demotion" and remembered the red-headed former star who guided them when they first started playing. At least Bartel and Chapman were still offered the chance to play SOME senior games, and would be considered for senior selection, McGrath wasn't. It is disappointing that these guys, and others, would rather retire or leave, when the club still offered them a contract, just so that they can avoid being seen running around in the lesser team.

Tim McGrath also didn't have offers to continue on elsewhere, wasn't playing to the same standard as Bartel in 2016, and more to the point Geelong wasn't anywhere near finals at the time.

According to reports (admittedly only the Addy), the club pushed Bartel to retire anyway (http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...p/news-story/51ba75a2673772119e6e74a60498f643).

 

[goyoucatters]

I can't sign off on all that GTOA has written above.

But I will concur in saying that I have enormous respect for 'Bluey' in watching how he gave himself wholeheartedly to our club for his entire career with us.

And since then as well, of course.

Ended up being a very, very handy player as well, in my view.

But he gets far more kudos from me for simply being a thoroughly champion bloke.

I also think it's worth admitting that you end up having to mark everyone else fairly hard when you see guys like 'Bluey' as the standard for the 'team-first' ethic.

He's a clear stand-out from the crowd on that metric.

 

[Generalissimo]

Just a small correction... McGrath played the first two rounds of 2002 in the seniors.

Also, big David Mensch was in the same boat. Played one senior game and the rest of the year in the VFL.

 

[Frappe]

We're all wired differently. I'd be more annoyed if they'd played on and were disruptive because they were being picked in the 2's.

 

[GTOA]

That's the thing though. If you're discussing a contract and your employer says you will be playing VFL before they even have the opportunity to see you perform in the year coming, it is unlikely to be a simple learning curve after an off day. It is more likely a mandate. In other words, Chapman/Bartel could have been in white hot form, but they may well have been required to play in the twos anyway. While it is a case of perhaps being too proud by refusing to play in the VFL, I'd say they've well earnt that dignity. Two Norms and a Brownlow between them - they deserved to retain their honour.

In any case, I think Bartel was finished when he did, but Chapman still had a lot to offer. In hindsight, I wish we could have brought in our youth sooner.

But that's like being upset that you are started on the bench, not on the ground, in Round 1 of the season.

When did players dictate to a club when they are to be played. They should get games because their form warrants it? Yes, past glories matter, because they show what they can do, but other factors need to also come into play.

Are you telling me that, if Chapman or Bartel dominated in the VFL, they would not get considered for senior selection? That Scott would keep them down, just to play some unproven youngster?

What about finals? I would say that the club would play Chapman and Bartel, because they are proven finals players, and deliver when the heat is on. I would back them in finals than some first-year young 'un.

What about if Geelong got a lot of injuries that year? Would Scott bring in other youngsters, rather than tried, and true players? Veterans are "on call" and if not in the seniors, usually they are rushed back into the senior side? Hey, I am not for playing only youngsters. A good mix of young, middle and older players is the perfect mix, as all three bring something valuable to the team.

One good thing, I felt, about Bomber leaving, was that he had a habit of playing youngsters in 2007-2010, only to drop them for returning premiership players, no matter how well the young player played the previous week. He backed the premiership players every time, even ones like Mark Blake, ahead of developing for the future. Chris Scott, on the other hand, decided to look to the future as well, so that we didn't drop off a cliff once all our veterans retired. But that means playing "the bad guy" and giving veterans news they don't want to hear. If Bomber was still coaching us, we would be stuffed in a year or two when Lonergan and Mackie retire.

I think Chapman had a lot to offer as well. He seems rather intelligent, and I think he could have mentored and being a VFL playing coach for the side when he retired. But he put his ego and what he wanted ahead of the club, and left. His choice, but it is a shame that he couldn't have given something back to those who are taking over, and a club which gave him three premiership medallions and a Norm Smith Medal.

 

[animalrocks]

Chappy wants to coach and Jimmy stepped straight into the media.....and those opportunities presented.

 

[GTOA]

1) Because if you genuinely think you are still good enough at the level - especially if you have offers at AFL clubs - then you have every right to continue to attempt to play at that level.

2) Footy is a hugely physical sport and preparing for and surviving a season, year after year, takes a huge effort. You wouldn't want to put your body through that unless you absolutely wanted to.

Besides, you're misreading the Chapman situation anyway AFAIK - Chappy was offered one year, he wanted two, Essendon gave him two. Fair play to him.

If you think that you are good enough at that level, then imagine how good you will be in the VFL? You would be back in the seniors in no time.

But I wonder if they didn't do this either because of (a) pride, or (b) they know, deep down, that they don't have it anymore. Because if they can still do it, prove the coach wrong, and show it. Pressure would then come on Chris Scott, by the media, public, and people on this board, to play a veteran who still "has it".

 

[GTOA]

Tim McGrath also didn't have offers to continue on elsewhere, wasn't playing to the same standard as Bartel in 2016, and more to the point Geelong wasn't anywhere near finals at the time.

According to reports (admittedly only the Addy), the club pushed Bartel to retire anyway (http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...p/news-story/51ba75a2673772119e6e74a60498f643).

What, there weren't any coaching or media opportunies elsewhere? No jobs in the work sector instead? No local footy teams who would love to have a former VFL player who played in four Grand Finals run around for their team?

McGrath did it because HE WANTED TO. He did it because he loved playing football, and loved the club. Now, I am not saying that others don't (players leave for a variety of reasons), but McGrath did it because he wanted to, not because he had no choice.

 

[thejester]

Didn't Damien Peverill successfully sue for restraint of trade when he was told he'd only be playing VFL in his final season at Essendon?

 

[GTOA]

I can't sign off on all that GTOA has written above.

But I will concur in saying that I have enormous respect for 'Bluey' in watching how he gave himself wholeheartedly to our club for his entire career with us.

And since then as well, of course.

Ended up being a very, very handy player as well, in my view.

But he gets far more kudos from me for simply being a thoroughly champion bloke.

I also think it's worth admitting that you end up having to mark everyone else fairly hard when you see guys like 'Bluey' as the standard for the 'team-first' ethic.

He's a clear stand-out from the crowd on that metric.

Good to see McGrath also recover from his cancer battle.

As someone who lost a brother to cancer, I can see what a battle it is, and it is good to see a good bloke like McGrath "win one" for once.

 

[iameviljez]

If you think that you are good enough at that level, then imagine how good you will be in the VFL? You would be back in the seniors in no time.

But I wonder if they didn't do this either because of (a) pride, or (b) they know, deep down, that they don't have it anymore. Because if they can still do it, prove the coach wrong, and show it. Pressure would then come on Chris Scott, by the media, public, and people on this board, to play a veteran who still "has it".

As a general case, no you wouldn't. Matthew Stokes and Shannon Byrnes, for example, were several classes above the VFL but that's where they played out their careers regardless of form.

Besides, I really think you've got both the Bartel and Chapman situations wrong. We offered Chapman one year, he held out for two and Essendon gave him two - fair enough. Reading between the lines, the club wanted Bartel to retire.

 

[iameviljez]

What, there weren't any coaching or media opportunies elsewhere? No jobs in the work sector instead? No local footy teams who would love to have a former VFL player who played in four Grand Finals run around for their team?

I meant AFL opportunities, like Josh Hunt, Stokes, Kelly, SJ, Chapman etc had.

 

[supahoops]

VFL would've only been part of the conversation. Jim is smart enough to realise, and hopefully he has already, that the game had gone past him or at least would have at some stage this season. The work of Parfitt adding an exclamation mark.

Look at Lonergan, would it be any benefit for him to play at VFL level? Can see his game dying a death before our eyes. Kolodjashnij to take his spot by the end of the year..

 

[romeohwho]

Must say think Bartel is making good transition to media-looks good, good manner, asks sensible questions-he may have wanted another year but pretty sure he'd be happy about it all now.

 

[you pick one]

It's rather cheeky IMO to ask an AFL player to to commit to a season of footy make the sacrificed do all the hard work while at the same time telling them we'd like to try others unproven in your spot so expect to play a fair bit of VFL no matter how well you're going.
They'd get a big f--k you from me.

 

[Boxhead_31]

Just a small correction... McGrath played the first two rounds of 2002 in the seniors.

Also, big David Mensch was in the same boat. Played one senior game and the rest of the year in the VFL.

Didn't Mitchell White end up doing likewise?

As to why they don't like going back and playing VFL, one explanation I could give is match payments perhaps? Every AFL game is $5,000 in aplayers pocket opposed to $750 for a VFL game and when you're a veteran player coming to the end and looking to maximise your dollars to last the rest of your life getting every AFL level game could be a big driver I would suggest.

 

[GTOA]

VFL would've only been part of the conversation. Jim is smart enough to realise, and hopefully he has already, that the game had gone past him or at least would have at some stage this season. The work of Parfitt adding an exclamation mark.

Look at Lonergan, would it be any benefit for him to play at VFL level? Can see his game dying a death before our eyes. Kolodjashnij to take his spot by the end of the year..

The thing with Lonergan is, that he had the chance to leave at end of 2014, when the Western Bulldogs offered him a 3-year, million dollar contract.

He turned it down, because this was the same day where Ryan Griffin left, Brendan McCartney was sacked, and it looked like the Bulldogs would be in the doldrums for years. Maybe Lonergan thought that the stability at Geelong suited him better.

But, seeing how well the Bulldogs have done now, I wonder if Lonergan, if dropped, or retired early, would regret not taking it, as he would have then be playing until the end of 2017, set up financially for many years, and possibly playing in another premiership.

 

[GTOA]

Didn't Mitchell White end up doing likewise?

As to why they don't like going back and playing VFL, one explanation I could give is match payments perhaps? Every AFL game is $5,000 in aplayers pocket opposed to $750 for a VFL game and when you're a veteran player coming to the end and looking to maximise your dollars to last the rest of your life getting every AFL level game could be a big driver I would suggest.

One thing I never got with AFL footballers.

I remember Paul Chapman saying that he wanted to play on because he needed the money.

But AFL players get paid very handsomely during their career. I would have thought that many of them would save a bit, to use when they retire.

So, while playing VFL doesn't pay as well, a frugal AFL player would not need to worry about that as much, since they have saved and invested wisely for many years to come, and don't need to worry about their bank balance as much.

I remember in tennis, how Andre Agassi used to criticise Pete Sampras for being "cheap", because he saved his money. But now, Pete Sampras is set up for life, and doesn't have to "work to live".

The end comes at some time for players, and unless they have something to go to, they really need to prepare for the future, and how they will get by.

 

[GTOA]

Didn't Mitchell White end up doing likewise?

As to why they don't like going back and playing VFL, one explanation I could give is match payments perhaps? Every AFL game is $5,000 in aplayers pocket opposed to $750 for a VFL game and when you're a veteran player coming to the end and looking to maximise your dollars to last the rest of your life getting every AFL level game could be a big driver I would suggest.

One thing I never got with AFL footballers.

I remember Paul Chapman saying that he wanted to play on because he needed the money.

But AFL players get paid very handsomely during their career. I would have thought that many of them would save a bit, to use when they retire.

So, while playing VFL doesn't pay as well, a frugal AFL player would not need to worry about that as much, since they have saved and invested wisely for many years to come, and don't need to worry about their bank balance as much.

I remember in tennis, how Andre Agassi used to criticise Pete Sampras for being "cheap", because he saved his money. But now, Pete Sampras is set up for life, and doesn't have to "work to live".

The end comes at some time for players, and unless they have something to go to, they really need to prepare for the future, and how they will get by.

 

[Frappe]

Must say think Bartel is making good transition to media-looks good, good manner, asks sensible questions-he may have wanted another year but pretty sure he'd be happy about it all now.

Yep. He and Hodge are very good this season.

 

[hbk_aus]

Yep. He and Hodge are very good this season.

I think Hodge has improved. He was very monosyllabic and droll early on but seems to be getting better. Just a good bloke.

Pavlich and Lake have been good additions to Foxtel this year too.