Moved Thread Why does Richmond get destroyed by the umpires every week ?

[tigland]

It’s what your stats seem to support

lol you asked for stats, were provided stats and now the conclusion is that not only are we undisciplined, we influence every other team to be statistically more disciplined. Interesting take.

 

[beema limapep]

It’s what your stats seem to support

How would you explain that Richmonds behaviour makes its opponents statistically infringe less?

Hypothetically.

Because if there is no valid and logical reason that can be landed upon by anyone (which is where we are at at the moment) the only other reason would appear to be umpire bias.

 

[Django]

Last night was a funny game. I was at the match. We as Tiger supporters were resigned to the decisions. It just felt natural or a given. The umpiring in the wet had an enormous impact on the game. The Saints got close at the end of the third from poor umpiring. We as Tiger supporters all look a bit crazy, but it's a bit nuts that every week it a statical anomaly against us. As some other posters have said. It's not the frees against us. Surely we are due a free from time to time.

When Grant Thomas is calling it out, you know we are only half crazy!

 

[biaseddustyfan]

How would you explain that Richmonds behaviour makes its opponents statistically infringe less?

Hypothetically.

Because if there is no valid and logical reason that can be landed upon by anyone (which is where we are at at the moment) the only other reason would appear to be umpire bias.

because they don't get as much contested ball, get to the ball first and you'll win the frees. what's that? they won contested ball by 15 and dominated clearances? uhh I guess it's because they lost the marks, go for some big marks and you'll get some high or chopping the arm frees. wait they won the marks too? uhhh they loose the tackle count bigly so they don't get HTB frees, their own fault. what's that? they were within a few either way of the oppos tackles? hmmm maybe the opposition just trained to be extra nice dudes that week yeah that must be it

 

[Blueyboy74]

Richmond and Hawthorn get bent over because the AFL videos spent a lot of time focusing on richmond and hawk players doing the wrong thing, whilst ignoring other teams.

Cats and Dogs were heavily featured as being on the receiving end of free kicks.

Umps aren't actively looking for frees, but subconsciously see it (goldspink actually spoke about it years ago on SEN)

Is that true or just something you've heard or came up with? Very interesting if it is and would suggest the attached 'free kick differential' is not unrelated.

 

[Blueyboy74]

The argument that ‘our style of play’ is the main reason for consistently being on the wrong side of the ledger doesn’t stack up for mine. For starters it doesn’t address why it is that the opposition are, for ‘this’ week only against Richmond' markedly more disciplined & technically perfect in their defence and pressure acts etc.

Secondly, what specifically is it about our style of play that is producing these results? If it was a particular thing that we were doing which is repeatedly resulting in us conceding a free kick &/or not receiving one then we would be holding the players & coaches accountable for failing to address the issue … but the fact is there isn’t anything in particular I can point to – it’s more just a general reaming.

Finally, the raw deal doesn’t apply nearly so much to our finals matches where only the better umpires officiate and the ‘soft’ and 50/50 free kicks tend to be overlooked. In fact, I would contend that if anything we have only amplified our style of play in our finals matches which, if the 'style of play' premise is to be believed, would only serve to widen the discrepancy and not reduce it, and significantly, like it has.

 

[banana_bus]

Non-Richmond supporters seem to have gone quiet since the facts were presented...

 

[smasha]

Every oppo team is the most Disciplined team in the Universe when they play RICHMOND.
Cmon AFL,what is going on????

What s**t sandwich will Tiger players coaches and fans be served against Brisbane?

Ahh the swallowed replay Lynch's goal.

Did not even bother to show a replay to make sure of it.

Come clean AFL!

 

[btdg]

The argument that ‘our style of play’ is the main reason for consistently being on the wrong side of the ledger doesn’t stack up for mine. For starters it doesn’t address why it is that the opposition are, for ‘this’ week only against Richmond' markedly more disciplined & technically perfect in their defence and pressure acts etc.

Secondly, what specifically is it about our style of play that is producing these results? If it was a particular thing that we were doing which is repeatedly resulting in us conceding a free kick &/or not receiving one then we would be holding the players & coaches accountable for failing to address the issue … but the fact is there isn’t anything in particular I can point to – it’s more just a general reaming.

Finally, the raw deal doesn’t apply nearly so much to our finals matches where only the better umpires officiate and the ‘soft’ and 50/50 free kicks tend to be overlooked. In fact, I would contend that if anything we have only amplified our style of play in our finals matches which, if the 'style of play' premise is to be believed, would only serve to widen the discrepancy and not reduce it, and significantly, like it has.

I think there are specific ways of playing that attract free kicks, and those that don't.

The following are likely to lead to a team receiving more free kicks IMO:

• Taller, big bodied/slower Key position players and emphasis on kicks to 1-1 KP contests (more likely to get mark infringements in these cases)
• Winning contested football, slinging the ball around contests by handball to get an open receiver (clumsy tackles more likely than HTB)
• 'Finesse' ruckmen - either really tall guys like Gawn, or athletic 'jumpers' (more ruck contest FK)
• numbers behind the ball defensively, creating 2 on 1 defensive aerial contests (more infringements in the air)
• protects the corridor defensively, pushing the opposition wide (more OOB)
• experienced, veteran players, particularly 'clean cut' midfielders and KPP

The following lead to less free kicks IMO:

• mobile/smaller/athletic KPP and a game style that aims to share the ball around (less 1-1 contests, more open marks)
• possession football: scramble the ball forward and chase tactics rather than overpossessing (less FK in the contest, and more
• high press = less numbers behind the ball (creates less outnumbers behind the ball = more 1-1 defensively = more FK against and less FK for)
• Big bodied, bollocking ruckmen (more likely to impede others at ruck contests)
• 'no name' players in a system, scrappy smalls and forward pockets, and younger/rookie players
• intensity and attack on the football is superior than opponent

I would suggest Richmond's premiership teams leaned as heavily as any team has into much of the second category, while Geelong built their success around quite a few of the first category.

Do every team suddenly get cleaner playing Richmond? Actually, yes, they probably do. I think teams understand the high press more, put numbers behind the ball and look to sling the ball around a bit more when they play Richmond. They also probably try to isolate Richmond's defenders in contests 1-1 a bit more and sit it on their head to nullify their athleticism and make them grapple.

It's actually a lot easier to understand than the idea that there is some sort of umpiring conspiracy against the Tigers. You could really sum it up by simplifying to 'the tackler is more likely to be penalised than the tacklee... if you emphasise tackling and pressure to create turnovers AND beat your opponent at this, it is likely you will win the game but lose the free kick count'.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

I think the fact you guys got some flags during that time meant this kind of overlooked/swept under the rug (for the most part) and now things aren't as bright/rosy you look at it all a bit more objectively and things like free kicks are more noticeable when you're not up and about

When you get a ** run from the umps, but you're winning it hits different to a ** run and you lose as well (We have had our fair share of s**t runs from the umps and had a few decent ones too)

 

[My Tilly]

Non-Richmond supporters seem to have gone quiet since the facts were presented...

Everyone is just sick and tired of your whinging.
When the pandemic hit, the club complained to the AFL about goal umpiring decisions.
Supporters blame Steve Hocking's rule changes as the demise to their dynasty.
Supporters complain about other clubs having their own home ground & facilities.

Just imagine the outcry if Dustin Martin left during the middle of Richmond's premiership run for pick 19

 

[Blueyboy74]

I think there are specific ways of playing that attract free kicks, and those that don't.

The following are likely to lead to a team receiving more free kicks IMO:

• Taller, big bodied/slower Key position players and emphasis on kicks to 1-1 KP contests (more likely to get mark infringements in these cases)
• Winning contested football, slinging the ball around contests by handball to get an open receiver (clumsy tackles more likely than HTB)
• 'Finesse' ruckmen - either really tall guys like Gawn, or athletic 'jumpers' (more ruck contest FK)
• numbers behind the ball defensively, creating 2 on 1 defensive aerial contests (more infringements in the air)
• protects the corridor defensively, pushing the opposition wide (more OOB)
• experienced, veteran players, particularly 'clean cut' midfielders and KPP

The following lead to less free kicks IMO:

• mobile/smaller/athletic KPP and a game style that aims to share the ball around (less 1-1 contests, more open marks)
• possession football: scramble the ball forward and chase tactics rather than overpossessing (less FK in the contest, and more
• high press = less numbers behind the ball (creates less outnumbers behind the ball = more 1-1 defensively = more FK against and less FK for)
• Big bodied, bollocking ruckmen (more likely to impede others at ruck contests)
• 'no name' players in a system, scrappy smalls and forward pockets, and younger/rookie players
• intensity and attack on the football is superior than opponent

I would suggest Richmond's premiership teams leaned as heavily as any team has into much of the second category, while Geelong built their success around quite a few of the first category.

Do every team suddenly get cleaner playing Richmond? Actually, yes, they probably do. I think teams understand the high press more, put numbers behind the ball and look to sling the ball around a bit more when they play Richmond. They also probably try to isolate Richmond's defenders in contests 1-1 a bit more and sit it on their head to nullify their athleticism and make them grapple.

It's actually a lot easier to understand than the idea that there is some sort of umpiring conspiracy against the Tigers. You could really sum it up by simplifying to 'the tackler is more likely to be penalised than the tacklee... if you emphasise tackling and pressure to create turnovers AND beat your opponent at this, it is likely you will win the game but lose the free kick count'.

I appreciate that you have at least given the idea some thought and offered a number of reasons that might have contributed to the discrepancy. In saying that, the data doesn’t really support the various theories since there is a notable range as to where the Tigers have ranked during this period in a number of key statistics for 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023:

Disposals – 15, 14, 11, 12, 11, 10, 10
Contested Possessions – 6, 8, 17, 13, 17, 12, 5
Marks – 16, 17, 12, 10, 14, 12, 16
Tackles – 7, 14, 11, 8, 13, 18, 11
Turnover Differential – 1, 1, 3, 2, 4, 4, 13

Free Kicks Differential – 18, 18, 13, 17, 18, 18, 17

From that the only one that warrants further investigation is the Turnover For/Against given we have either led this category or being in the top 4 for six of the seven years. When looking at other teams, however, that also ranked highly in this category, that doesn’t appear to have had an impact on their free kick differential:

2019 - #1 Brisbane (10th free kick diff), #2 Hawthorn (15th)
2020 - #1 Brisbane (9th)
2021 - #1 Melbourne (10th), #2 Carlton (3rd)
2022 - #1 Geelong (7th), #2 Collingwood (5th)
2023 - #1 Melbourne (9th)

Nor does it address a number of other issues such as:

• Half the 2017 premiership team is no longer playing
• The effect of the AFL rule changes such as 6-6-6 ad ‘stand the mark’
• Our game plan has changed/evolved especially post-Lynch
• Why hasn’t the discrepancy been mirrored in finals matches?
• McCrae has introduced a lot of the ‘Richmond style’ to Collingwood without the free kick effect

Finally, despite our style not changing much in-season, we have also witnessed a considerable disparity in the number of free kicks received from game to game, for example:

2017 – 12, 12, 13/23, 23, 25
2018 – 10, 10, 13/24, 25, 27
2019 – 9, 11, 11/24, 24, 26
2020 – 8, 11, 11/20, 23, 25
2021 – 11, 12, 12/23, 25, 25
2022 – 10, 13, 13/24, 26, 31
2023 – 7, 10, 10/21, 27, 27

If there was something specific that we or our opponents were doing that could largely explain either the low or the high number f free kicks received then the supporters, coaches, experts etc would be all over it but there just simply isn’t.

 

[closer to truth]

Is that true or just something you've heard or came up with? Very interesting if it is and would suggest the attached 'free kick differential' is not unrelated.

View attachment 1716192

Duh! Numerous statistical studies, across many sports, have confirmed that umpires, referees and officials have an unconscious bias against teams that play in black, and an equal or equivalent bias for teams that play in red. It is the reason why very few soccer teams in Europe play in black, with most choosing red strips.
It completely explains the odd circumstance where Rich are adjudicated to give away the most frees, yet oddly are awarded the fewest 'for' frees. The two should be largely mutually exclusive. This bais is even more apparent at night and may explain why as soon as night games where regularly introduced (1980s) Richmond's win tally went down until they adoped the fluro yellow and started playing away games in it.....What did the win the 2017 premerhsip in?...The Fluro Yellow...and got more frees too.
In what largely reduces to a "across the field 1:1 contact sport" like AFL this bias is even more pronounced

REFERENCES

Adam, H., & Galinsky, A. (2012). Enclothed cognition. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 48, 918-925.

Frank, M., & Gilovich, T. (1988). The dark side of self and social cognition: Black uniforms and aggression in professional sports. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 54, 74-85.

 

[freddy mercury]

Who cares, control the controllable, kick a higher score than your opponent.

 

[Blueyboy74]

Everyone is just sick and tired of your whinging.
When the pandemic hit, the club complained to the AFL about goal umpiring decisions.
Supporters blame Steve Hocking's rule changes as the demise to their dynasty.
Supporters complain about other clubs having their own home ground & facilities.

Just imagine the outcry if Dustin Martin left during the middle of Richmond's premiership run for pick 19

Well I would much prefer to not have reasons to complain but the last couple of weeks have only served to bring an issue that is now in its 7th consecutive season to a head. It's not like we've just had a bad couple of weeks or year or we're being poor losers ... we have actually won the last two games and 3 premierships in this time but that doesn't mean that something isn't right or should be overlooked.

I'm pretty certain also that the pandemic was completely irrelevant to our issue with goal umpiring decisions and more to do that the ARC decided (in near record time) to overturn the goal umpire's call (who was in perfect position too I might add) based on inconclusive evidence and which decided the fate of an AFL final. Excuse us for being a little miffed ...

Finally, there is compelling evidence that both the AFL and Hocking actively sought to quell Richmond's dominance, under the guise of increasing the scoring (how's that going by the way?), with targeted changes to the rules. Having detonated his bomb, he then pisses off back down the Princes Fwy to resume his spot underneath Chris Scott's desk.

 

[Blueyboy74]

Who cares, control the controllable, kick a higher score than your opponent.

Perhaps if we could control the disparity in the number of free kicks received v conceded with a view to helping us kick 'a higher score than our opponent' we would, only that nobody is really quite sure as to why such a bias exists and has persisted for so long.

 

[Blueyboy74]

Duh! Numerous statistical studies, across many sports, have confirmed that umpires, referees and officials have an unconscious bias against teams that play in black, and an equal or equivalent bias for teams that play in red. It is the reason why very few soccer teams in Europe play in black, with most choosing red strips.
It completely explains the odd circumstance where Rich are adjudicated to give away the most frees, yet oddly are awarded the fewest 'for' frees. The two should be largely mutually exclusive. This bais is even more apparent at night and may explain why as soon as night games where regularly introduced (1980s) Richmond's win tally went down until they adoped the fluro yellow and started playing away games in it.....What did the win the 2017 premerhsip in?...The Fluro Yellow...and got more frees too.
In what largely reduces to a "across the field 1:1 contact sport" like AFL this bias is even more pronounced

REFERENCES

Adam, H., & Galinsky, A. (2012). Enclothed cognition. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 48, 918-925.

Frank, M., & Gilovich, T. (1988). The dark side of self and social cognition: Black uniforms and aggression in professional sports. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 54, 74-85.

Interesting and I'll be sure to check it out although it's fair to say that over the last few years my trust in scientific studies has somewhat dampened. I acknowledge your point about the 2017 Grand Final but also draw your attention to just over a week ago where Fremantle, wearing the dark purple, had received 18 free kicks by midway through the final quarter compared to Richmond's, wearing the bright yellow, paltry 3 free kicks that included none at all in both the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

 

[nick1408]

Thread title is a shocker but I’d also like to know how teams become so much more disciplined against Richmond.

I don’t think it’s a conspiracy against Richmond. I think half the battle is that we as supporters and members are told nothing. Like the head, questioning umpires is sacrosanct so while you might get a bit of recognition from the commentators (“a bit lucky to get away with that” etc) There will never be in depth discussion.

In the same vein, I’m sure Richmond are questioning the AFL regarding decision constantly but they either choose not to or are not allowed to pass the information onto members and supporters.

Herein lies the issue. The public don’t know the reasoning so abuse the umpires due to the supporters not understanding the rules of that particular match. I say “particular match” as I don’t think compassion across different matches is fair with different umpiring groups.

Against Fremantle, Bolton got a free kick near the 50 metre line in the first quarter and chose to play on. It resulted in a goal but was recalled for some reason I don’t understand and the subsequent kick resulted in a point. A very similar action happened later for Fremantle without the kick being recalled. These are the type of comparisons that should be made - those during a particular match. It’s well documented that the AFL tell the umpires what to concentrate on each week so it is t fair to the umpires to compare them across weeks.

I see Sam Maclure was on his high horse about community umpiring. Maybe let’s start at the top and have some transparency in the actual decision making so the (not so) humble supporter has half an idea of the rules of the match.

Off my high horse for a moment; all I want is to understand why Richmond are seemingly adjudged differently to opponents on any given weekend. The frees Richmond give away are usually there (mistakes can happen) but it seems that those similar/same decisions do not come back the other way at the same rate.

 

[closer to truth]

Interesting and I'll be sure to check it out although it's fair to say that over the last few years my trust in scientific studies has somewhat dampened. I acknowledge your point about the 2017 Grand Final but also draw your attention to just over a week ago where Fremantle, wearing the dark purple, had received 18 free kicks by midway through the final quarter compared to Richmond's, wearing the bright yellow, paltry 3 free kicks that included none at all in both the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

There is a well-known maxim in statistcs that states - "anedotes prove nothing".

One game or one quarter cannot be used to draw conclusions.

That said, and I hope this isn't true, but we now know (some) umpires are prepared to cheat to bet football. For example. the ump who is charged with fraud regarding the Brownlow votes.

Q by Q betting is a huge temptation, and the easiest way to rig the outcome of a quarter is to repeatedly centre-bounce the ball over one ruckman's head. Now go back and carefully look at the first quarter of the Rich V Freo game.

Professional soccer games are routinely rigged overseas. I think they should ban Q by Q betting.

​

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

All I can add to this conversation is as a neutral I watched the 1st half of this match. If there was any biased umpiring, it must have been after half time because I saw nothing wrong with the umpiring in the 1st half.

 

[barracoutta]

All I can add to this conversation is as a neutral I watched the 1st half of this match. If there was any biased umpiring, it must have been after half time because I saw nothing wrong with the umpiring in the 1st half.

so you can honestly say Sicily wasnt getting his hands in Jacks back to take marks and no calls made for push in back yet the reverse happens later in second half it was called a push in the back against jack an dnot to mention the rag dolling later in last quater??

 

[banana_bus]

so you can honestly say Sicily wasnt getting his hands in Jacks back to take marks and no calls made for push in back yet the reverse happens later in second half it was called a push in the back against jack an dnot to mention the rag dolling later in last quater??

He was talking about the game from 3 weeks ago.

But yes the "umpiring" this past Saturday's match was beyond explainable.

 

[HairyO]

so you can honestly say Sicily wasnt getting his hands in Jacks back to take marks and no calls made for push in back yet the reverse happens later in second half it was called a push in the back against jack an dnot to mention the rag dolling later in last quater??

When Sicily did what forwards have been getting away with for years? And when Jack spent the entire game sooking and waving his arms like dickhead and not getting pinged for dissent but Sicily did get pinged for doing it once?

Maybe Riewold should focus on his goal kicking in the last few games of his career. He most likely would have screwed up his shots had he got free kicks anyway. Perhaps the umpires were saving him the embarrassment.

 

[barracoutta]

When Sicily did what forwards have been getting away with for years? And when Jack spent the entire game sooking and waving his arms like dickhead and not getting pinged for dissent but Sicily did get pinged for doing it once?

Maybe Riewold should focus on his goal kicking in the last few games of his career. He most likely would have screwed up his shots had he got free kicks anyway. Perhaps the umpires were saving him the embarrassment.

so a player sooking doesnt deserve a free kick? ok mate good argument!

 

[Mitchell Madness]

I can tell you why richmond get a rough run - they spend their time having a go at the umpires.
Actually lucky not to be done for descent, but the umps get their back in other ways.

As for the wringing about Sicily on riewoldt, at least their consistent. Richmond's defenders were doing the exact same thing