Why Hawthorn?

[Slattery_20]

On traded by Hawthorn. you could have had pick 16 for Mark Williams, but you gave it away.

Pick 9 and the difference between hawthorn's pick 24 and St K's pick 16 (which we 'paid' for Williams).

Small change - pick 58; Jay nash; pick 33 & 40 all moved around the place as well.
No doubt, if they'd wanted, they could've ended up with 9 & 16 for themselves.

2 first round picks for Burgoyne, wouldn't even do that in a supposed weak draft like this year.

IMHO they'd love any of Fyfe, Bastinac, Gysberts, Carlisle or Talia.

 

[doppleganger]

@doppleganger

Might help to actually watch FEW hawthorn games if your going to criticize, Poppy Stratton Lewis Bruest Shiels Rioli Ruff Smith...ellis and young (if fully fit) nothing vanilla about them maybe neapolitan BUT d[FONT=&quot]efiantly not straight vanilla.[/FONT]

You aint disputed anything I said.

The 2005-06 drafts will hurt Hawthorn. They realised that the 22-24 yr olds that they missed in these drafts was a problem, especially with the top end talent smack bang in the middle of their peak age. So they looked to trade and bring in mature recruits.

Hawthorn's under 25 team is nothing special at all, especially without Buddy.

 

[The Kipster]

Hawthorn's under 25 team is nothing special at all, especially without Buddy.

I think your under 25's are well and truly over-rated, in fact I can't see your club performing as well as they did over the last 2yrs....especially without Malthouse

 

[Dr Awkward]

Because they are a team in premiership contention that also has a few spots open on the list. I'm surprised Carlton aren't attracting players actually, they must be doing something wrong.

 

[doppleganger]

I think your under 25's are well and truly over-rated, in fact I can't see your club performing as well as they did over the last 2yrs....especially without Malthouse

Not interested in getting into a Pies discussion.

Thread is about Hawthorn, and why they seem to be active trader's of late....I have explained my reasoning....

ie a disastrous 05-06 draft period, left them bereft of 'mature youngsters' and being in a premiership window the answer was to trade and recruit 'mature bodies' who are ready to play AFL from day dot.

Hawks fans can talk up having good facilities and Buddy as reasons I guess.

 

[Pessimistic]

The other contending clubs seem to be shedding players for the salary cap.

THAT could be a factor

 

[cs61]

Not interested in getting into a Pies discussion.

Thread is about Hawthorn, and why they seem to be active trader's of late....I have explained my reasoning....

ie a disastrous 05-06 draft period, left them bereft of 'mature youngsters' and being in a premiership window the answer was to trade and recruit 'mature bodies' who are ready to play AFL from day dot.

Hawks fans can talk up having good facilities and Buddy as reasons I guess.

The Hawks didn't have a good drafting period over those years given our picks. No doubt about that.

They also lost Croad, Campbell to career ending injuries prematurely which threw out the structure of our planning at the time.

So yeah, we had to do some work to restructure our list, and we've done it pretty well given the crisis we've had with ruck injuries, and losing our best key back. I don't think anyone denies Thorp, Dowler, ended up being a really bad result. Two good players there would have our list in perfect shape. It didn't work out.

So yeah we've had to be aggressive to reshape our list due to draft picks not coming on as expected and losing key players to career ending injuries who were huge parts of our structure. However just because you want players, doesn't mean you can get them.

This thread is about Hawthorn's ability to attract good players to come to the club. We've been really astute in the players we've highlighted and scouted, and then also done well in convincing them to come to our club to play here. We've had as a good a record as any in getting people over the line and wanting to play for us, if not the best, in recent times. Also several other players (Thornton, O'Keefe, Gillies,) have also chosen us but the club's have not agreed on a trade.

So you're not saying anything particularly clever in saying we've had to restructure our list. We did have to, and we've done it pretty well considering the circumstances of failed highly rated draft picks and premature retirements.

 

[doppleganger]

This thread is about Hawthorn's ability to attract good players to come to the club. We've been really astute in the players we've highlighted and scouted, and then also done well in convincing them to come to our club to play here.

Not about attracting, it is about Hawthorn's recent propensity to get trades over the line.

IMO a big part of that is list structure, there was a clear definciency in the Hawks list....so they went out to fill it....why would Geelong trade??

St.Kilda was trading strongly also back in 07-10, as it tried to position for a premiership.....although now there was talk of off-loading talent, as the list has potentially missed the boat.

Hawthorn is a club in premiership mode, so they are willing to bring in senior talent....a club like Melbourne has recently being off-loading senior talent.

So you're not saying anything particularly clever in saying we've had to restructure our list. We did have to, and we've done it pretty well considering the circumstances of failed highly rated draft picks and premature retirements.

Im not trying to be clever. I was a big fan of Hawthorn's strategy, could still get them another flag. But it is very much a NOW strategy, and talk about elite youngsters is misguided.

 

[JonoNash]

Hawthorn need to tread carefully.

Mitchell turns 29 next year, Bateman 30 (he looked done in the PF), Burgoyne 29, Gilham 27 coming of a knee reco (takes 1 year of playing to get over it), Osborne 29, Gibson 27, Guerra 29, Hale 27 & Hodge 27. That is a bulk of their core in their twilight years.

Remind me of St. Kilda. The end can quicker than you expect it.

 

[Rioli magic]

No doubt, if they'd wanted, they could've ended up with 9 & 16 for themselves.


IMHO they'd love any of Fyfe, Bastinac, Gysberts, Carlisle or Talia.

Surely there is some doubt Hawthorn would've have got pick 16 for Williams as a stand alone trade.

Not interested in getting into a Pies discussion.

Thread is about Hawthorn, and why they seem to be active trader's of late....I have explained my reasoning....

ie a disastrous 05-06 draft period, left them bereft of 'mature youngsters' and being in a premiership window the answer was to trade and recruit 'mature bodies' who are ready to play AFL from day dot.

Hawks fans can talk up having good facilities and Buddy as reasons I guess.

I think Hawthorn have done quite well to plug that "age" gap in the list. If you considered the 05/06 haul: Birchall, Stratton, Smith, Suckling, Puoplo, Ellis it doesn't look too bad, 5 or 6 in the 22, with a few younger players entrenched in there too.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

You get two chances a year to improve your list: trade week and the draft. Hawks are making the most of trade period. And yes we have had our hand forced somewhat due to Thorp and Dowler failing while Croad, Boyle and Campbell had their careers cut short

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

Hawthorn need to tread carefully.

Mitchell turns 29 next year, Bateman 30 (he looked done in the PF), Burgoyne 29, Gilham 27 coming of a knee reco (takes 1 year of playing to get over it), Osborne 29, Gibson 27, Guerra 29, Hale 27 & Hodge 27. That is a bulk of their core in their twilight years.

Remind me of St. Kilda. The end can quicker than you expect it.

Of the players you listed, probably 5 would be in our starting 22 next year. Even then, Hale may get pushed our of the team by Roughy/Gunston.

On the other hand, lets have a look at a comparable team, in premiership contention - Collingwood.

Ball - 27
Leon - 30
Didak - 29
Swan - 27
Johnson - 30
Krakouer - 29
Jolly - 30
Maxwell - 28
Tarrant - 31

Average age in the PF:
Collingwood - 26 years 0 months
Hawthorn - 25 years 4 months

Of those players listed above, 8-9 are in your starting 22, with Jolly probably the most important player (along with Cloke) on your list, given your weakness in the Ruck.

Looking at that, I'd say Collingwood is closer to the end than Hawthorn.

 

[doppleganger]

Of the players you listed, probably 5 would be in our starting 22 next year. Even then, Hale may get pushed our of the team by Roughy/Gunston.

Funny that all year Hawks fans complained that they were without there number 1 FB Gilham, now all of a sudden he aint even best 22.

Guerra played 22 games in 2011, now again he aint best 22.
Osborne also played 20 games in 2011....another who is now mysteriously not in the best 22??

Didn't even mention Sewell who is another veteran who is well established in the 22....although I guess he may not be best 22 anymore either!

On the other hand, lets have a look at a comparable team, in premiership contention - Collingwood.

Ball - 27 - trade in
Leon - 30
Didak - 29
Swan - 27
Johnson - 30
Krakouer - 29 - trade in
Jolly - 30 - trade in
Maxwell - 28
Tarrant - 31 - trade in

Looking at that, I'd say Collingwood is closer to the end than Hawthorn.

Collingwood did the same thing as Hawthorn, ie have been happy to trade for senior talent in recent times as we are in premiership mode...nothing to do with facilities as Hawthorn fans like to spruik, it is simply a list management strategy designed to go for a premiership now.

Although Hawthorn have only won one final in the last three seasons with the focus on the present.....so need a payoff pretty soon or will have to change to the trading out strategy they implemented back in mid 2000s when guys like Thompson, Hay etc were traded out to land the club some gun youngsters like Buddy, Roughy, Lewis etc

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Suckling, Shiels, Rioli, Smith, Puopulo, Lewis, Birchall, Roughead, Gunston, Stratton, Bailey and of course, big Bud all have their best to come.

The 'older' players - ie Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Gibson, Gilham have a few years of their best remaining

Its a club hitting its peak over the next Few years. Its also wealthy and stable.

All these could be considered reasons why players arenominating the Hawks but to be honest, I think its all about number 23.

 

[JonoNash]

Of the players you listed, probably 5 would be in our starting 22 next year. Even then, Hale may get pushed our of the team by Roughy/Gunston.

Gilham is in your best team, he is your best KPD. Guerra is your best half-back flanker.

That is 7 players including your best midfielder, your 2nd best player & midfielder in Hodge & your best defender in Gibson.

Of Collingwood's lot, only Swan is in our top 5 players.

 

[mark73]

Hawthorn need to tread carefully.

Mitchell turns 29 next year, Bateman 30 (he looked done in the PF), Burgoyne 29, Gilham 27 coming of a knee reco (takes 1 year of playing to get over it), Osborne 29, Gibson 27, Guerra 29, Hale 27 & Hodge 27. That is a bulk of their core in their twilight years.

Remind me of St. Kilda. The end can quicker than you expect it.

I'll be the first to admit I don't give Hawthorn a second thought, my club beats them more often than they lose to them, regardless of where they are on the ladder, but Al is a smart operator and with Franklin and Gunston forward he can play Roughead in defence, CHB suits him to a tee, it certainly did as a boy at Box Hill. I just hope for Alastair's sake he thinks the same way.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Gilham is in your best team, he is your best KPD. Guerra is all your best half-back flanker.

That is 7 players including your best midfielder, your 2nd best player in Hodge & your best defender in Gibson.

Of Collingwood's lot, only Swan is in our top 5 players.

Birchall is a much better player than Guerra across the HBF. He was in the AA squad of 40 and lucky not to make the team. Birchall >>> Guerra

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

Gilham is in your best team, he is your best KPD. Guerra is your best half-back flanker.

That is 7 players including your best midfielder, your 2nd best player & midfielder in Hodge & your best defender in Gibson.

Of Collingwood's lot, only Swan is in our top 5 players.

Without Gilham this year we still managed the 3rd least points against. Given he is coming back from a knee reco, he's no certainty to play games straight away.

Guerra is getting older, and considering his position is one which we have significant depth in (Birchall, Suckling, Puopolo, Whitecross), he'll struggle to keep his spot. And FYI - Birch (all year) Suckling (towards the start of the year) and poppy (towards the end of the year) were better than Goo.

Luke Ball would certainly be one of your top 5 players (he finished 4rd in the Copeland this year and 5th last year), Leon finished 5th in the Copeland, and while he isn't on of your 5 "best" players, Jolly is either 1 or 2 as the most important player on your list.

 

[MightyHawks]

Hawthorn need to tread carefully.

Mitchell turns 29 next year, Bateman 30 (he looked done in the PF), Burgoyne 29, Gilham 27 coming of a knee reco (takes 1 year of playing to get over it), Osborne 29, Gibson 27, Guerra 29, Hale 27 & Hodge 27. That is a bulk of their core in their twilight years.

Remind me of St. Kilda. The end can quicker than you expect it.

Remind you of St. Kilda? Really?

In the 2010 draft we recruited Smith and Puopolo who both look like they can play 7+ years for the Hawks, David Hale who is a 5 years prospect and Cheney who is a young backup and Bruce who is obviously a short term prospect.

In 2011 trading we have already secured Gunston and Boumann, both of whom the club sees as likely 7+ year players.

Not wanting to pick on the Saints or anything, but as you're comparing us and them, who of their 2010 draftees or 2011 trades do you see as the most comparable to Smith, Puopolo, Hale and Gunston?

 

[hawkman]

ie a disastrous 05-06 draft period, left them bereft of 'mature youngsters' and being in a premiership window the answer was to trade and recruit 'mature bodies' who are ready to play AFL from day dot.

2005 was hardly a disaster with Ellis, Birchall and Bailey still 'mature youngsters' on the list

2006 wasn't good with Suckling the only decent player left on the list

 

[cryptor]

I'll be the first to admit I don't give Hawthorn a second thought, my club beats them more often than they lose to them, regardless of where they are on the ladder, but Al is a smart operator and with Franklin and Gunston forward he can play Roughead in defence, CHB suits him to a tee, it certainly did as a boy at Box Hill. I just hope for Alastair's sake he thinks the same way.

We've actually beat you guys more often than not in recent times (4 from 6 since start of 08 and 3 from 4 since start of 09). Going back any further than that and you're not really even looking at the same team lists anymore.

Might want to pay us a bit more thought in future.

 

[mark73]

We've actually beat you guys more often than not in recent times (4 from 6 since start of 08 and 3 from 4 since start of 09). Going back any further than that and you're not really even looking at the same team lists anymore.

I was almost tempted to say what I often put up with - "If you guys didn't have Carey". You only beat us last time thanks to a late rally from Lance Franklin.

Might want to pay us a bit more thought in future.

Yeah, nah, strangely enough Hawthorn are one of a few teams we always go into a game thinking we can win, similar to Essendon, Richmond and Carlton who we also lost to this year.

 

[doppleganger]

2005 was hardly a disaster with Ellis, Birchall and Bailey still 'mature youngsters' on the list

2006 wasn't good with Suckling the only decent player left on the list

For the amount of good picks you guys had in those drafts, it has turned out to be a disaster.

Ellis is at the cross-roads in 2012, another injury interupted year and he may well face the cut....compare him to M.Murphy, Pendles, Thomas ie the other young mids taken at the top

Birchall is the only win out of all of those top picks.

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

For the amount of good picks you guys had in those drafts, it has turned out to be a disaster.

Ellis is at the cross-roads in 2012, another injury interupted year and he may well face the cut....compare him to M.Murphy, Pendles, Thomas ie the other young mids taken at the top

Birchall is the only win out of all of those top picks.

Murphy and Thomas were taken before X, and we would have taken either if they were available.

Pendles is better yes, other than him, who are the other young mids we could have taken that have shown more than X? Andrew Swallow at 43 is about it.

 

[JonoNash]

Without Gilham this year we still managed the 3rd least points against.

Gilham played the 1st 7 games. You were hardly without him for the whole season. The 3rd least points is also deceptive, return games against GC, the softest draw of any top 8 side & the like.

You were exposed badly against the Top 4 sides who had power forwards, that is why you won 1 game & lost 5 against these sides.

And FYI - Birch (all year) Suckling (towards the start of the year) and poppy (towards the end of the year) were better than Goo.

You must not watch a lot of Hawthorn. Puopolo was playing as a defensive forward by the end of the year.

The stats show that Guerra was your best rebounding defender.

Luke Ball would certainly be one of your top 5 players (he finished 4rd in the Copeland this year and 5th last year), Leon finished 5th in the Copeland, and while he isn't on of your 5 "best" players, Jolly is either 1 or 2 as the most important player on your list.

No, Ball would be our 4th best midfielder (as opposed to Mitchell & Hodge who are No 1 & 2). Pendlebury (23), Swan (27), Thomas (23), Cloke (24) & Heath Shaw (25) are easily our best 5 players (in no particular order).