Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Europeans have been awful. Some worse than others. The white man's burden is a blight.

European's just happened to have the military/technological advantage at the time.
They weren't any worse than any other people back then, they just happened to have the ability.

I wouldn't go suggesting that African nations were pacifists prior to European colonisation. They fought amongst each other and ransacked resources.

I'm sure there were nice people in Africa and Europe back in the day, but they probably weren't King.

 

[Chief]

I don't think anyone denies this. Acknowledging it won't make a whit of deference though, unfortunately.

I think it will. Pouring money back into a ****ed up system you created and blaming the average African refugee for your failure seems insane.

 

[bzparkes]

I think it will. Pouring money back into a ****ed up system you created and blaming the average African refugee for your failure seems insane.

Pretty weird conclusion you've arrived at there, if you're insinuating that's the point I was making.

 

[Chief]

Africa was '****ed' long before Europeans went there, if you're referring to continual tribal warfare, enslavement of opposing tribes, etc.

In fact, everywhere was like this. It isn't a problem that was specific to Africa.

These things didn't suddenly occur when Europeans took a larger interest although in the last hundred years or so of course the mining and resources plundering has caused the biggest issues.

This is around about where I started with this line of discussion.

If you want to summarise, I'll read it. I'm not getting into another circular argument, though.

 

[bzparkes]

This is around about where I started with this line of discussion.

If you want to summarise, I'll read it. I'm not getting into another circular argument, though.

It was a query over the usual allegations of Europeans doing shitty things throughout history when every civilisation/culture is guilty of similar deeds, yet people don't seem to like that when you point it out.

I've also acknowledged on a few occasions that Africa's current plight is a direct result of European influence.

People seem to want to ignore my acknowledgement though and have a hissy fit over the first part.

 

[Chief]

It was a query over the usual allegations of Europeans doing shitty things throughout history when every civilisation/culture is guilty of similar deeds, yet people don't seem to like that when you point it out.

I've also acknowledged on a few occasions that Africa's current plight is a direct result of European influence.

People seem to want to ignore my acknowledgement though and have a hissy fit over the first part.

Yes but you excused those actions in your first point.

 

[faible]

It was a query over the usual allegations of Europeans doing shitty things throughout history when every civilisation/culture is guilty of similar deeds, yet people don't seem to like that when you point it out.

I've also acknowledged on a few occasions that Africa's current plight is a direct result of European influence.

People seem to want to ignore my acknowledgement though and have a hissy fit over the first part.

The European example is significantly more recent. Picking up and leaving a country after you're done pillaging it and pretending that the reason the country is a shitshow is all their own fault is a bit disingenuous though.

 

[bzparkes]

Yes but you excused those actions in your first point.

Nope.

 

[bzparkes]

The European example is significantly more recent. Picking up and leaving a country after you're done pillaging it and pretending that the reason the country is a shitshow is all their own fault is a bit disingenuous though.

Well, I don't think anyone thinks that, so apologies if that's how it came across.

I simply query whether throwing more money at it will solve the problem. Considering it's done nothing to alleviate the poverty in Africa currently, it doesn't really appear as if there's any valid solution that springs to mind.

 

[Chief]

Nope.

" allegations"

No, they did.

"of Europeans doing shitty things throughout history when every civilisation/culture is guilty of similar deeds, yet people don't seem to like that when you point it out."

In my mind that is an attempt to excuse it with a whatabout. Or at least nullify the opinion of people who point out these atrocious - and proven - actions by painting those people as hypocritical.

 

[faible]

Well, I don't think anyone thinks that, so apologies if that's how it came across.

I simply query whether throwing more money at it will solve the problem. Considering it's done nothing to alleviate the poverty in Africa currently, it doesn't really appear as if there's any valid solution that springs to mind.

Getting money to the people and places that need it is the challenging part, it's not about throwing 'more' money at it, but actually working out to how get the money to the places and people that will be able to use it to create a functional and flourishing society.

 

[bzparkes]

" allegations"

No, they did.

Replace the word with 'comments' then. I didn't really consider its implications around the meaning behind it when typing.

"of Europeans doing shitty things throughout history when every civilisation/culture is guilty of similar deeds, yet people don't seem to like that when you point it out."

In my mind that is an attempt to excuse it with a whatabout. Or at least nullify the opinion of people who point out these atrocious - and proven - actions by painting those people as hypocritical.

No, I'm just sick of the current social media narrative that goes entirely like this:

Criticism of Islam = Islamaphobia

Criticism of Judaism = Anti-Semitic

Criticism of POC = Racist

Criticism of white people = Progressive

White people/culture are certainly deserving of a lot of criticism for the way our ancestors recently treated indigenous cultures and the way certain societal standards are still implemented today.

it doesn't mean other groups get to pull the victim card when fair criticism is leveled against them.

Here's a video you may/may not have seen for an Asian discussing this exact thing.

 

[bzparkes]

Getting money to the people and places that need it is the challenging part, it's not about throwing 'more' money at it, but actually working out to how get the money to the places and people that will be able to use it to create a functional and flourishing society.

Absolutely but unfortunately due to rampant corruption on the governments and aid agencies themselves, this is nigh on impossible.

Having Russian Wagnerites stirring up trouble across the country also is a massive problem too.

 

[Chief]

it doesn't mean other groups get to pull the victim card when fair criticism is leveled against them.

That's fair enough.

Then you get into the weeds of what is fair criticism.

 

[bzparkes]

That's fair enough.

Then you get into the weeds of what is fair criticism.

I think all criticism is fair, as long as it's in regards to actions you disagree with of certain groups.

People get too caught up in physical appearance and think criticism of them must be because they look different than the majority.

Maybe they're just a shitty person/group of people?

If people harshly criticise and ostracize people/individuals solely based on their appearance/things about their culture then that's wrong, because you don't know them as an individual and are resorting to stereotypes, some of which have a 'place' but can't be effectively used to tar an entire group of people with the same brush.

Having said that, no one person/entity should be the arbiter of what's 'appropriate' behaviour from other groups, unless they are breaking a country's laws of course.

 

[sr36]

" allegations"

No, they did.

"of Europeans doing shitty things throughout history when every civilisation/culture is guilty of similar deeds, yet people don't seem to like that when you point it out."

In my mind that is an attempt to excuse it with a whatabout. Or at least nullify the opinion of people who point out these atrocious - and proven - actions by painting those people as hypocritical.

Or it's simply pointing out that some issues pre-date colonialism. A lot of progressive research has moved past the initial post-colonial impact and looking at violence in Africa (and most continents) as something that was very present before, during and after European colonialism. Africa doesn't move past its current plight if all its woes are blamed on colonialism without looking at internal cultural influences, same with the middle east.

 

[Chief]

Or it's simply pointing out that some issues pre-date colonialism. A lot of progressive research has moved past the initial post-colonial impact and looking at violence in Africa (and most continents) as something that was very present before, during and after European colonialism.

Yes, as it was in Europe.

Africa doesn't move past its current plight if all its woes are blamed on colonialism without looking at internal cultural influences, same with the middle east.

Internal strife was often prolonged and exacerbated by colonisation and theft.

So, say, sheeting home that blame to a refugee is pointless. Hence the "they're just going where all their nice stuff is" comment.

You only need to look to Eastern Europe for some effects of external parties imposing arbitrary borders and political systems.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

People get too caught up in physical appearance and think criticism of them must be because they look different than the majority.

Maybe they're just a shitty person/group of people?

Agree 100% 'arseh*le' has no race, no creed nor a religion. 'arseh*le' can and does exist in all cultures simultaneously. I'm largely a social progressive humanist, but I think it's important to not lose sight of this.

ANYONE can be an arseh*le and have it not be indicative of their culture or ethnicity or religion.

 

[BigPond101]

Terrorist calls for the "normalisation of massacres of Jews" in London and police do nothing. Eventually they recieved so much backlash they are forced to issue a statement on twitter with a vague promise of investigating

The tide is turning lefties, 5 years ago it would have been considered too racist to investigate a Muslim for demanding a full scale October 7 style massacre of Jews

 

[Chief]

5 years ago it would have been considered too racist to investigate a Muslim for demanding a full scale October 7 style massacre of Jews

Huh? This is just not true.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Huh? This is just not true.

It definitely wouldve been met with calls of islamaphobia by a fair chunk of the media.

I remember that abc "journalist" who said she wanted sharing law and everyone got mad at her, every media reprisal was how we were islamaphobic

 

[Chief]

I remember that abc "journalist" who said she wanted sharing law

Which one?

(I assume auto correct and you meant Sharia)

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Which one?

(I assume auto correct and you meant Sharia)

I can't remember her name, but it launched a back and forth with Jackie Lambie after she said it....

Yasmin something?

 

[Chief]

I can't remember her name, but it launched a back and forth with Jackie Lambie after she said it....

Yasmin something?

I don't remember it. Let us know if you find a link.

 

[sr36]

Terrorist calls for the "normalisation of massacres of Jews" in London and police do nothing. Eventually they recieved so much backlash they are forced to issue a statement on twitter with a vague promise of investigating

The tide is turning lefties, 5 years ago it would have been considered too racist to investigate a Muslim for demanding a full scale October 7 style massacre of Jews

What are you talking about? Police have been investigating potential terrorist threats for years. There's a special hotline to call and laws have been written where people can be arrested and imprisoned for activity that doesn't involve an attack.