Analysis Would the stand rule still have been introduced if Geelong had won the 2020 premiership?

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Anthony80

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The stand on the mark rule was introduced to add speed and scoring power to the game.
It was brought in to promote quicker ball movement, but Richmond didn't need help in that regard, we were doing just fine.
So it seems like you agree with me, that it was brought in "to add speed" to the game, which is really no different to me saying it was brought in to prompt teams to move the ball quicker where previously only Richmond could?
 

PhatBoy

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It was brought in to promote quicker ball movement, but Richmond didn't need help in that regard, we were doing just fine.
So it seems like you agree with me, that it was brought in "to add speed" to the game, which is really no different to me saying it was brought in to prompt teams to move the ball quicker where previously only Richmond could?


You do realise Richmond finished third, third, and third in the minor premiership each year they won the comp, right?

The way you talk you’d think they were a 4-win better team every season playing a style no one could compete with and then got brought back to the pack 😂😂😂
 

Anthony80

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You do realise Richmond finished third, third, and third in the minor premiership each year they won the comp, right?
I know Geelong finished above us in '17 & '19.
The way you talk you’d think they were a 4-win better team every season playing a style no one could compete with and then got brought back to the pack 😂😂😂
I remember some of your previous comments where you seem to suggest we were better than you guys in both '17 & '19 regardless of the fact you guys finished above us!?

Our seasons were like our game, lets let David King explain:
“Giving up clearance advantage to the opposition, not getting consumed by having to win every ball, but when you win it, you’re gone. I think we should all just say thanks because for the best part of the last five to six years when they’ve been super strong, the game has been awful. Without Richmond, we would have made 100 more rule changes. So I say thanks.”

We didn't have to end up on top of the ladder, we didn't have to win every game, but when we made finals against Geelong, we were gone! You should really thank the Richmond FC for the stand rule, because this season when you guys won it, you were gone like you couldn't go before.
 

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Falcon3518

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You do realise Richmond finished third, third, and third in the minor premiership each year they won the comp, right?

The way you talk you’d think they were a 4-win better team every season playing a style no one could compete with and then got brought back to the pack

In finals we pretty much were. Also 2019 was just % off the minor premiership. Considering we lost Rance for the whole year, at full strength I’d say we were well ahead of the pack.


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PhatBoy

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I know Geelong finished above us in '17 & '19.

I remember some of your previous comments where you seem to suggest we were better than you guys in both '17 & '19 regardless of the fact you guys finished above us!?

Our seasons were like our game, lets let David King explain:
“Giving up clearance advantage to the opposition, not getting consumed by having to win every ball, but when you win it, you’re gone. I think we should all just say thanks because for the best part of the last five to six years when they’ve been super strong, the game has been awful. Without Richmond, we would have made 100 more rule changes. So I say thanks.”

We didn't have to end up on top of the ladder, we didn't have to win every game, but when we made finals against Geelong, we were gone! You should really thank the Richmond FC for the stand rule, because this season when you guys won it, you were gone like you couldn't go before.


You were. You outplayed us in finals. Again, it’s not like you were using this plan (rolling back from the mark) and the rest of the competition just couldn’t compete.
 

PhatBoy

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In finals we pretty much were. Also 2019 was just % off the minor premiership. Considering we lost Rance for the whole year, at full strength I’d say we were well ahead of the pack.


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But Rance wasn’t there, so you weren’t.


Yeah in finals you were generally dominant. A couple of losses and a narrow prelim win aside.

Again, this isn’t a claim that you were false premiers or something, it’s pointing out that whatever your gameplan and tactics were that the afl were so determined to neutralise, it wasn’t making you better across the board than everyone else. You weren’t having 20-2 seasons where you just ran a train through everyone and there was no answer to it and became a machine that just couldn’t be stopped
 

Anthony80

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it’s pointing out that whatever your gameplan and tactics were that the afl were so determined to neutralise, it wasn’t making you better across the board than everyone else.
How did a team that did not get the AA representation of other "dynasty" teams win 3 flags in 4 years? We heard it was our "system" from the experts. So what made us 3x premiers in 4 seasons was our system, and not a team full of AA calibre players, this concerned the AFL and so they acted by bringing in a rule to promote quicker ball movement so all teams when they win it can go, like only Richmond could go before.
You weren’t having 20-2 seasons where you just ran a train through everyone and there was no answer to it and became a machine that just couldn’t be stopped
I'll ask you this last question, did Richmond need the stand rule to move the ball quicker?
 

geelong_crazy26

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It was brought in to promote quicker ball movement, but Richmond didn't need help in that regard, we were doing just fine.
So it seems like you agree with me, that it was brought in "to add speed" to the game, which is really no different to me saying it was brought in to prompt teams to move the ball quicker where previously only Richmond could?
I think the strength of Richmond’s game was always their defense not their attack. The way Richmond could win the ball back was second to none. The stand on the mark rule seemed to damage this capacity to an extent.
 

Anthony80

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So when the team that makes finals for about ten consecutive years including regular preliminary finals wins the premiership it is because of AFL assistance?
I swear that some of the comments on here are proof that sniffing your farts can lead to irreversible brain damage.
The stand rule was brought in to promote quicker ball movement, the rule literally assisted teams to move the ball quicker.
 

PhatBoy

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How did a team that did not get the AA representation of other "dynasty" teams win 3 flags in 4 years? We heard it was our "system" from the experts. So what made us 3x premiers in 4 seasons was our system, and not a team full of AA calibre players, this concerned the AFL and so they acted by bringing in a rule to promote quicker ball movement so all teams when they win it can go, like only Richmond could go before.

I'll ask you this last question, did Richmond need the stand rule to move the ball quicker?


How the hell should I know - I’m not their f***ing coach.

Teams were competing with them just fine in general, and to their credit they played their best football when it mattered most and other sides couldn’t do the same.

Make some more excuses mate.
 

Noidnadroj

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why would the AFL introduce a rule to impede one of its most profitable clubs in favour of what Tiger supporters call a ‘minnow’ club? It does not make sense. Think about it….

Hocking introduced the rule … a rule change that wasn’t reviewed by the AFL’s own rules committee… just think about that … the AFL appointed rules committee wasn’t entrusted with reviewing / testing / approving a new rule that changed the way a player was able to man the mark from 135-years of history…. one man, one idea, a few practices matches and it’s implemented.

I hate the rule but many don’t, and that’s fine. I simply hate the way most seem to accept this process. You might be OK with the stand rule, but we need to protect against what might come next without due process. The sub-rule came the same way …. no discussion, no analysis, no testing …. and a disaster. Our game should not allow this cowboy approach to rule changes.


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PhatBoy

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Hocking introduced the rule … a rule change that wasn’t reviewed by the AFL’s own rules committee… just think about that … the AFL appointed rules committee wasn’t entrusted with reviewing / testing / approving a new rule that changed the way a player was able to man the mark from 135-years of history…. one man, one idea, a few practices matches and it’s implemented.

I hate the rule but many don’t, and that’s fine. I simply hate the way most seem to accept this process. You might be OK with the stand rule, but we need to protect against what might come next without due process. The sub-rule came the same way …. no discussion, no analysis, no testing …. and a disaster. Our game should not allow this cowboy approach to rule changes.


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Why do you make out like this is the only time this has ever happened?

Who decided the dissent rule rule should just become an area of focus with no trial or anything?

Nevermind the fact that the stand rule actually WAS trialled in pre-season matches; when else are they supposed to trial it? What is this process they should have been going through to get it ready? They had the best part of a month at least in the pre-season and trial period to get used to it and trial it in matches before the first game of the season. How much time do you need for a rule change? What do they need to do, extend the preseason trial period by longer than they do for every other year - when there are other rule changes?
 

Falcon3518

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But Rance wasn’t there, so you weren’t.


Yeah in finals you were generally dominant. A couple of losses and a narrow prelim win aside.

Again, this isn’t a claim that you were false premiers or something, it’s pointing out that whatever your gameplan and tactics were that the afl were so determined to neutralise, it wasn’t making you better across the board than everyone else. You weren’t having 20-2 seasons where you just ran a train through everyone and there was no answer to it and became a machine that just couldn’t be stopped

We didn’t have 20-2 seasons cause of injury. They made 666 rule before Rance got injured. We went 18-4 in 2018 WITHOUT adding Lynch. If Rance did not get injured and the rest of the team didn’t have that horrid run with injuries in 2019 I have no doubt we would’ve been minor premiers and gotten 19 or 20 wins. I think it’s fair to say our system broke the AFL and it took for us to get old and have even more injuries for the comp to finally have another premier.

Keep in mind we didn’t have Rance in 2020 either and it still mattered cause we had him on the books. Would you have won 2 flags without Scarlett for those whole 2 years? Maybe not.


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Robroy22

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We didn’t have 20-2 seasons cause of injury. They made 666 rule before Rance got injured. We went 18-4 in 2018 WITHOUT adding Lynch. If Rance did not get injured and the rest of the team didn’t have that horrid run with injuries in 2019 I have no doubt we would’ve been minor premiers and gotten 19 or 20 wins. I think it’s fair to say our system broke the AFL and it took for us to get old and have even more injuries for the comp to finally have another premier.

Keep in mind we didn’t have Rance in 2020 either and it still mattered cause we had him on the books. Would you have won 2 flags without Scarlett for those whole 2 years? Maybe not.


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And Collingwood supporters get sad cos the AFL brought in the rotations limits to stop Swanny!!!
They over equalise.....constantly.
 

Falcon3518

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And Collingwood supporters get sad cos the AFL brought in the rotations limits to stop Swanny!!!
They over equalise.....constantly.

Yeah 100% everybody cops it. It doesn’t make you a conspiracy theorist.


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PhatBoy

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We didn’t have 20-2 seasons cause of injury. They made 666 rule before Rance got injured. We went 18-4 in 2018 WITHOUT adding Lynch. If Rance did not get injured and the rest of the team didn’t have that horrid run with injuries in 2019 I have no doubt we would’ve been minor premiers and gotten 19 or 20 wins. I think it’s fair to say our system broke the AFL and it took for us to get old and have even more injuries for the comp to finally have another premier.

Keep in mind we didn’t have Rance in 2020 either and it still mattered cause we had him on the books. Would you have won 2 flags without Scarlett for those whole 2 years? Maybe not.


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But he did get injured and then he retired.

The afl didn’t make a rule because they were worried you’d be unbeatable if Rance came back. The rule came in after two seasons when he was not there and was not coming back. They were two seasons where you were deserving premiers, no argument at all there, but you weren’t a juggernaut. There were 3-4 teams in each of those years that were nearly as good and certainly competitive with Richmond.

There was no need to bring Richmond back to the pack because for most of the time across those seasons Richmond was in the pack.
The leading pack yes but the pack nonetheless.

You just also happened to produce your best footy, like all great sides, when it mattered most.

This wasn’t St George winning 11 nrl titles in a row and being next to unbeatable so they brought in the 6 tackle rule BECAUSE they were simply too good. (And that hurts to admit because I f***ing despise St George). This was the league trying to improve the game and Richmond just happened to be the Side at the time who was taking silverware, as opposed to a side that was unstoppable and had to be eradicated at all costs.
 

Falcon3518

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But he did get injured and then he retired.

The afl didn’t make a rule because they were worried you’d be unbeatable if Rance came back. The rule came in after two seasons when he was not there and was not coming back. They were two seasons where you were deserving premiers, no argument at all there, but you weren’t a juggernaut. There were 3-4 teams in each of those years that were nearly as good and certainly competitive with Richmond.

There was no need to bring Richmond back to the pack because for most of the time across those seasons Richmond was in the pack.
The leading pack yes but the pack nonetheless.

You just also happened to produce your best footy, like all great sides, when it mattered most.

This wasn’t St George winning 11 nrl titles in a row and being next to unbeatable so they brought in the 6 tackle rule BECAUSE they were simply too good. (And that hurts to admit because I f***ing despise St George). This was the league trying to improve the game and Richmond just happened to be the Side at the time who was taking silverware, as opposed to a side that was unstoppable and had to be eradicated at all costs.

Not the stand rule specifically. I was referring to 666 rule which was a bigger change imo. They tried to stop the flooding of the game which we excelled in.

In regards to being a juggernaut. What is your definition? Is it 1 hit wonders like bombers 2000 and saints 09/10 or the dynasty clubs with 3+ flags? Cause I’m pretty sure every 21st century dynasty team had close call finals and competitive teams around them. Is it H&A wins you are basing it on?


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Meteoric Rise

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Hocking introduced the rule … a rule change that wasn’t reviewed by the AFL’s own rules committee… just think about that … the AFL appointed rules committee wasn’t entrusted with reviewing / testing / approving a new rule that changed the way a player was able to man the mark from 135-years of history…. one man, one idea, a few practices matches and it’s implemented.

I hate the rule but many don’t, and that’s fine. I simply hate the way most seem to accept this process. You might be OK with the stand rule, but we need to protect against what might come next without due process. The sub-rule came the same way …. no discussion, no analysis, no testing …. and a disaster. Our game should not allow this cowboy approach to rule changes.


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And especially so when the people making the rule changes are so close to a certain current AFL coach.
 

PhatBoy

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Not the stand rule specifically. I was referring to 666 rule which was a bigger change imo. They tried to stop the flooding of the game which we excelled in.

In regards to being a juggernaut. What is your definition? Is it 1 hit wonders like bombers 2000 and saints 09/10 or the dynasty clubs with 3+ flags? Cause I’m pretty sure every 21st century dynasty team had close call finals and competitive teams around them. Is it H&A wins you are basing it on?


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Just teams that are clearly THAT much better than everyone else. Richmond were ultimately the best and quite obviously over a collective period but beyond, ironically, 2018, no one would look at their record and say ‘well obviously no one was competing with these guys and the league had to bring them back to the pack.’


Btw Geelong didn’t have to win a flag without Scarlett. We did win 2 with the then-best centre half back in the league on our books but unable to play, though
 

Falcon3518

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Just teams that are clearly THAT much better than everyone else. Richmond were ultimately the best and quite obviously over a collective period but beyond, ironically, 2018, no one would look at their record and say ‘well obviously no one was competing with these guys and the league had to bring them back to the pack.’


Btw Geelong didn’t have to win a flag without Scarlett. We did win 2 with the then-best centre half back in the league on our books but unable to play, though

Fair enough, I just think it seemed like we were ‘brought down to the pack’ cause our injuries in H&A affected our H&A record. Every game we’ve gone in fully fit in finals we have won. I’d say we were pretty far ahead of the comp imo. Both games we lost 2018 Dusty was injured and I know you think otherwise but we had gastro. 2020 QF we didn’t have Lynch.

I don’t think people realise how bad our injuries were in 2019. At one point I’m pretty sure we had Dusty, Cotchin, Riewoldt and other good player out. I think it was Grimes. The port away game is the biggest example.

Which final was the close one you won cause of GAJ? Was it like 3 points. If Scarlett did indeed play that game, would you have won without him? Idk, but it doesn’t matter does it.


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PhatBoy

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Fair enough, I just think it seemed like we were ‘brought down to the pack’ cause our injuries in H&A affected our H&A record. Every game we’ve gone in fully fit in finals we have won. I’d say we were pretty far ahead of the comp imo. Both games we lost 2018 Dusty was injured and I know you think otherwise but we had gastro. 2020 QF we didn’t have Lynch.

Which final was the close one you won cause of GAJ? Was it like 3 points. If Scarlett did indeed play that game, would you have won without him? Idk, but it doesn’t matter does it.


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It wasn’t Scarlett. It was Matthew Egan. He was the All Australian centre half back and was monstrous in 2007 and broke the navicular bone in one of his feet in the second last round of the season.

He stayed on our list until the end of 2009 but never ever healed and didn’t play again. We beat Collingwood in a preliminary final by 5 in 2007, that’s the game you’re thinking of.

It balances out too don’t forget - it’s quite accurate to say ‘we didn’t have Rance in this season’ or ‘we lost a couple of games when we were missing this player’ but equally the teams that Richmond were finishing level with or behind in some cases had their issues too it’s just footy
 

Falcon3518

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It wasn’t Scarlett. It was Matthew Egan. He was the All Australian centre half back and was monstrous in 2007 and broke the navicular bone in one of his feet in the second last round of the season.

He stayed on our list until the end of 2009 but never ever healed and didn’t play again. We beat Collingwood in a preliminary final by 5 in 2007, that’s the game you’re thinking of.

It balances out too don’t forget - it’s quite accurate to say ‘we didn’t have Rance in this season’ or ‘we lost a couple of games when we were missing this player’ but equally the teams that Richmond were finishing level with or behind in some cases had their issues too it’s just footy

Yeah, I’m just trying to figure out why you think we weren’t dominant. Are you using stats or eye test? We both had close call wins, our closest was the port 2020 prelim over there by 6 points. So I’d say the comp was around the mark for both of us since you won by 5.

It’s also true that everybody has their issues but the severity matters especially going into specific games. I don’t think any top 8 teams had it worse than us in 2019. Only a couple had it worse overall in the whole comp I’m pretty sure it was insignificant teams like saints and Freo or something. So I think it definitely affects our record and perception of dominance.

Richmond are a pretty unique case imo cause of our big difference in H&A and finals performances. People either remember us as the H&A team or finals team based on what they value. Cats and Pies seem to remember us as the beatable H&A team. I think it’s cause their previous great teams were dominant in that area. But could be wrong.


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