Analysis Would the stand rule still have been introduced if Geelong had won the 2020 premiership?

[PhatBoy]

SDK is better now, I agree. Although Gibcus is better is 1v1 already us per the above stats. I’m telling you if you are in a premiership team it makes you look better than you actually are.

Yeah in his first final he cooked it a bit. Still learning and one play doesn’t define a player. Still better in 1v1 than SDK.


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Not that I disagree with most of what you are saying but I would actually argue that key defender is the one position in the game where if you’re in a bad side it doesn’t effect how you’re rated.

Think of a guy like May or Fletcher or McGovern who played in some fairly ordinary sides at times - if the ball just comes in relentlessly people will always give you that excuse - and rightly so - that you can only do so much to prevent scores when the ball is ALWAYS up your end. People will remember (if they’re watching closely) the guys who might give up 3-4 goals in a game but also spoil and intercept raid after raid in between those goals.

 

[PhatBoy]

Why though? You just described Barrass this season.

Who is regarded across the afl fan base as one of the best defenders in the league.

What is your point

 

[Sky]

Who is regarded across the afl fan base as one of the best defenders in the league.

What is your point

No he isn’t lol
Maybe on this website where your average fan is smarter than your average footy attendee

 

[PhatBoy]

No he isn’t lol
Maybe on this website where your average fan is smarter than your average footy attendee

He was in the all Australian 40 man squad and a quick google search will give you all the media material you need to see the ‘Barrass should be in the team’ stories you can poke a stick at. I literally just gave you 3 examples of other players in the same boat who were widely acknowledged as being A grade defenders in both good and bad sides.

 

[Sky]

He was in the all Australian 40 man squad and a quick google search will give you all the media material you need to see the ‘Barrass should be in the team’ stories you can poke a stick at. I literally just gave you 3 examples of other players in the same boat who were widely acknowledged as being A grade defenders in both good and bad sides.

Your average bogan doesn’t rate him higher than at least 5-10 key defenders mate.

 

[PhatBoy]

Your average bogan doesn’t rate him higher than at least 5-10 key defenders mate.

A) who cares. The average bogan can’t add 2 and 1 using their fingers. I don’t talk to ‘the average bogan’ about football. I try to avoid talking to them at all.

B) it wasn’t an average bogan I was replying to. It WAS someone on this site - you just acknowledged that the people on this site aren’t the average bogan

 

[Falcon3518]

Not that I disagree with most of what you are saying but I would actually argue that key defender is the one position in the game where if you’re in a bad side it doesn’t effect how you’re rated.

Think of a guy like May or Fletcher or McGovern who played in some fairly ordinary sides at times - if the ball just comes in relentlessly people will always give you that excuse - and rightly so - that you can only do so much to prevent scores when the ball is ALWAYS up your end. People will remember (if they’re watching closely) the guys who might give up 3-4 goals in a game but also spoil and intercept raid after raid in between those goals.

When the ball is always down in D50 the defenders get exhausted and then the dam wall eventually breaks. When that happens the 1v1 win percentage drops for the defenders. For that to happen to Gibcus more often than SDK and he still has a better 1v1 win rate it says a lot.

If Gibcus played for you guys this year he would’ve gotten better stats and vice versa with SDK. Winning a premiership tips the scales even more. For most people anyway.


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[PhatBoy]

When the ball is always down in D50 the defenders get exhausted and then the dam wall eventually breaks. When that happens the 1v1 win percentage drops for the defenders. For that to happen to Gibcus more often than SDK and he still has a better 1v1 win rate it says a lot.

If Gibcus played for you guys this year he would’ve gotten better stats and vice versa with SDK. Winning a premiership tips the scales even more. For most people anyway.


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I’m not arguing about who is better. It doesn’t bother me one way or the other. Merely pointing out that being in a mediocre side shouldn’t and generally doesn’t have much of an impact on how defenders are regarded

 

[Falcon3518]

I’m not arguing about who is better. It doesn’t bother me one way or the other. Merely pointing out that being in a mediocre side shouldn’t and generally doesn’t have much of an impact on how defenders are regarded

Fair enough


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[Cdog71]

Both DeKoning and Gibcus are unusual and are going to be great players hopefully
A 2mtr tall FB in a debut season and Gibcus couldn’t be recorded for his leap at the combine because it didn’t go high enough, both freak athletes with great Aussie Rules skills.

The stand rule is sh.t.

 

[rfctigerarmy]

Do we know if any further rules will be brought in to assist certain clubs?

Four umpires might just consolidate / allow the rules to be further implemented and open to interpretation, I guess, now they know the formula works.

 

[STPer18]

Do we know if any further rules will be brought in to assist certain clubs?

Four umpires might just consolidate / allow the rules to be further implemented and open to interpretation, I guess, now they know the formula works.

It's only scuttlebutt at the moment but I'm hearing the AFL are thinking about bringing in a rule that dictates 'any kick of the ball that sails atop one of the goal posts will be adjudicated a goal and awarded the regulation 6-points'. Apparently the aim of said rule is to ease the 100,000 odd members of a certain club who are still very much not coping with the outcome of season 2022.

 

[catscollector]

Not that I disagree with most of what you are saying but I would actually argue that key defender is the one position in the game where if you’re in a bad side it doesn’t effect how you’re rated.

Think of a guy like May or Fletcher or McGovern who played in some fairly ordinary sides at times - if the ball just comes in relentlessly people will always give you that excuse - and rightly so - that you can only do so much to prevent scores when the ball is ALWAYS up your end. People will remember (if they’re watching closely) the guys who might give up 3-4 goals in a game but also spoil and intercept raid after raid in between those goals.

I think it's quite the opposite. If you are in a bad side and you are not holding up your end of the bargain as the full back/centre half back, you simply don't progress and end up stalemating regardless if your team succeeded later on down the track. If you can make a name for yourself early, you have the opportunity to really stamp your legacy on the game.
Think of Scarlett, Prestigiacomo, McPharlin, Rance, Lake. Plenty more who flourished in bad sides and were always rated highly regardless of team success.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think it's quite the opposite. If you are in a bad side and you are not holding up your end of the bargain as the full back/centre half back, you simply don't progress and end up stalemating regardless if your team succeeded later on down the track. If you can make a name for yourself early, you have the opportunity to really stamp your legacy on the game.
Think of Scarlett, Prestigiacomo, McPharlin, Rance, Lake. Plenty more who flourished in bad sides and were always rated highly regardless of team success.

That’s what I mean though - someone who is in a bad side and may concede 3-4 goals, to me that IS holding up their end of the bargain and enhances those players (May at GCS was an obvious one) as much as a guy in a good side giving up 2 or so.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Prestia has had a better career, Atkins a better 2022

Atkins played some great midfield roles at times during the year when the Cats needed him. He had a quiet PF and GF but he wasn’t really needed. He would have walked into any team in 2022. But Atkins cannot be compared to Prestia as players …. they’re different players and in a different conversation as to quality.

Even 2022 I wouldn’t rate Atkins superior … Prestia got 19 Brownlow votes despite missing 4 games and being injured early in 2 others. With Martin out, Lambert injured, Graham sub-par and Edwards on his last legs Prestia carried our midfield when he played, and is the main reason we made finals and had a grand total losing margin from Round 7 of 18-points.

His last full season (fitness wise) was 2019 and he won the B&F in a flag year and from mid-year was the top ranked player in the competition.

Prestia is an ultra elite player in a different class.

I’m happy to concede Atkins had a better year than any other Tiger mid like Cotchin. Or Graham. Or Martin. Or basically any of Richmond’s main midfield ..… except Prestia. (Bolton a fwd/mid).


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[ZAP]

2019 top 3 clearance teams
GWS
Bris
Geel

Rich. Clearances: 848
Geel. Clearances: 980

Interestingly the top 3 clearance winning teams in '19 were Richmond's victims in the Finals series.



2020 top 3 clearance teams
Geel
Port
Bris

Rich. Clearances: 565
Geel. Clearances: 707

In 2020 Brisbane beat Richmond in the QF but went on to lose the PF to the top clearance winning team (Geelong).
Richmond would go on to beat both the top 2 clearance winning teams en route to winning the flag, this sent shockwaves through the AFL, and so they conspired to bring in the statue on the mark rule.



2021 top 6 clearance teams
WB
Geel
Bris
Melbourne
GWS
Port

Rich. Clearances: 661
Geel. Clearances: 979

3 of the top 4 clearance winning teams played in the PF in '21, the other being Port (6th). The top 6 clearance winning teams were the top 6 in '21. Richmond's record against the top 6 clearance winning teams who could now move the ball quicker upon being prompted/assisted by AFL when previously only Richmond could was 3 wins & 6 losses. That pleased the AFL that the rule had it's desired effect.



2022 top 3 clearance teams
Bris 994
Geel 940
Syd 937

Rich. Clearances: 775
Geel. Clearances: 940


So 2022 while still "giving away" clearances to the opposition you can see we lost to the Swans by a goal in Sydney, lost to Geelong by 3pts at the 'G, and beat Brisbane by 7pts at the 'G.

The 3 top clearance teams in the comp that could now move the ball quicker upon being prompted/assisted by the AFL saw the rule change brought in help them to a 1 goal, a 3pt, and a 7pt loss, and of course Brisbane beat the Tigers by 3pts in the now infamous screw job at the GABBA.

You can see why the sycophant media were peddling their story that Richmond was too old and injury prone in season 2022 rather than the truth.

So without the statue on the mark rule (brought in to prompt/assist 17 other teams in moving the ball quicker where previously only Richmond could), do Richmond turn their narrow losses in season '22 into wins? I answer YES.

Ask the same question to Geelong supporters and what do you think there answer will be? There answers are all over BigFooty, they say that Richmond was too old, too slow and injury prone, while Geelong was too old, too slow & too good, they say Richmond's demise had nothing to do with the statue on the mark rule brought in to prompt/assist their special needs club in moving the ball quicker. You may even find some delusional Geelong supporters suggesting that even if the statue on the mark rule was never brought in to prompt/assist them in moving the ball quicker that they still would've beat the too old, too slow & too injury prone Tigers by 3pts in rnd15 this season. This does not make sense, because if the statue on the mark rule was never brought in to prompt/assist Geelong in moving the ball quicker, then Richmond could still move the ball quickly like only they could previously, where as they for whom the rule was brought in, would struggle to move the ball quickly, this, and only this, makes sense!

The statue on the mark rule was brought in to hinder the Tigers defensive play by prompting/assisting their opponents in moving the ball quicker and in turn not allowing the Tiger defenders the time to set up like they could previously.

 

[woosha24]

Dont care for the "stand" rule and dont care for the "6-6-6" rule either.

The AFL should stop trying to manufacture a "style of play" via rules changes and simply let the game evolve tactically as it should. If one side becomes dominant as a result of playing the game a certain way then its incumbent upon the coaches of the other 17 clubs to figure out a way to counter that style of play. I personally like watching this sort of evolution of the game.

 

[ZAP]

Dont care for the "stand" rule and dont care for the "6-6-6" rule either.

The AFL should stop trying to manufacture a "style of play" via rules changes and simply let the game evolve tactically as it should. If one side becomes dominant as a result of playing the game a certain way then its incumbent upon the coaches of the other 17 clubs to figure out a way to counter that style of play. I personally like watching this sort of evolution of the game.

The 6-6-6 rule wasn't that bad in my opinion. It was good seeing the players in the traditional formation at least for centre bounces.

 

[Catsace]

Nah. Hawthorn every time. The fact that they were a dumpster fire and we were premiers yet they still beat us is all the evidence we need of that

Was illuminating when in the aftermath of that game it was 'Hawks brought the mouthguards to training' that week, i will never forget that Geelong didn't actually touch the footy at all before the Hawks had 17 possies and three goals. In saying that Geelong were over-run in the last quarter 4 goals to nil as well. But what a contrast it was later in the season when the Hawks essentially waved the white flag when they played AA defender Sicily as some strange new midfielder, and put a one-game nobody on Tom Lynch, who promptly kicked 8 goals.

As a long time Cat fan, beating the Hawks is always sweet.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Prestia has had a better career, Atkins a better 2022

Jesus PB, delete this post, it is embarassing.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Geelong were clearly the best and most dominant team of 2022, rule changes and adjustments be damned

I just find it strange it's usually Richmond supporters who start most of these threads questioning Geelong's Premiership credibility..

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

2019 top 3 clearance teams
GWS
Bris
Geel

Rich. Clearances: 848
Geel. Clearances: 980

Interestingly the top 3 clearance winning teams in '19 were Richmond's victims in the Finals series.



2020 top 3 clearance teams
Geel
Port
Bris

Rich. Clearances: 565
Geel. Clearances: 707

In 2020 Brisbane beat Richmond in the QF but went on to lose the PF to the top clearance winning team (Geelong).
Richmond would go on to beat both the top 2 clearance winning teams en route to winning the flag, this sent shockwaves through the AFL, and so they conspired to bring in the statue on the mark rule.



2021 top 6 clearance teams
WB
Geel
Bris
Melbourne
GWS
Port

Rich. Clearances: 661
Geel. Clearances: 979

3 of the top 4 clearance winning teams played in the PF in '21, the other being Port (6th). The top 6 clearance winning teams were the top 6 in '21. Richmond's record against the top 6 clearance winning teams who could now move the ball quicker upon being prompted/assisted by AFL when previously only Richmond could was 3 wins & 6 losses. That pleased the AFL that the rule had it's desired effect.



2022 top 3 clearance teams
Bris 994
Geel 940
Syd 937

Rich. Clearances: 775
Geel. Clearances: 940


So 2022 while still "giving away" clearances to the opposition you can see we lost to the Swans by a goal in Sydney, lost to Geelong by 3pts at the 'G, and beat Brisbane by 7pts at the 'G.

The 3 top clearance teams in the comp that could now move the ball quicker upon being prompted/assisted by the AFL saw the rule change brought in help them to a 1 goal, a 3pt, and a 7pt loss, and of course Brisbane beat the Tigers by 3pts in the now infamous screw job at the GABBA.

You can see why the sycophant media were peddling their story that Richmond was too old and injury prone in season 2022 rather than the truth.

So without the statue on the mark rule (brought in to prompt/assist 17 other teams in moving the ball quicker where previously only Richmond could), do Richmond turn their narrow losses in season '22 into wins? I answer YES.

Ask the same question to Geelong supporters and what do you think there answer will be? There answers are all over BigFooty, they say that Richmond was too old, too slow and injury prone, while Geelong was too old, too slow & too good, they say Richmond's demise had nothing to do with the statue on the mark rule brought in to prompt/assist their special needs club in moving the ball quicker. You may even find some delusional Geelong supporters suggesting that even if the statue on the mark rule was never brought in to prompt/assist them in moving the ball quicker that they still would've beat the too old, too slow & too injury prone Tigers by 3pts in rnd15 this season. This does not make sense, because if the statue on the mark rule was never brought in to prompt/assist Geelong in moving the ball quicker, then Richmond could still move the ball quickly like only they could previously, where as they for whom the rule was brought in, would struggle to move the ball quickly, this, and only this, makes sense!

The statue on the mark rule was brought in to hinder the Tigers defensive play by prompting/assisting their opponents in moving the ball quicker and in turn not allowing the Tiger defenders the time to set up like they could previously.

If this is all true, the Tigers are ******* pathetic.

Some bloke yelling “stand” occasionally completely ruined their ability to win games of football and sent a fair chunk of their supporters off the deep end.

 

[Branko]

If this is all true, the Tigers are ******* pathetic.

I'm not here to discuss your thoughts on the Tigers.

Some bloke yelling “stand” occasionally completely ruined their ability to win games of football and sent a fair chunk of their supporters off the deep end.

We still won games of football though!

What I'm showing is that the statue on the mark rule was brought in to bring Richmond back to the field.

David King said about the Tigers: "giving away clearance to the opposition," as if by design. A Geelong supporter on this thread says it was not by design that the Tigers gave away clearance to the opposition but rather that winning clearances was not the Tigers' forte. Other Geelong supporters say that Richmond needed "more adaptibility," seemingly suggesting that the Tigers (3 flags in 4 years) must get better at winning clearances! But why, why did we have to get better at winning clearances?

 

[Sttew]

I'm not here to discuss your thoughts on the Tigers.

We still won games of football though!

What I'm showing is that the statue on the mark rule was brought in to bring Richmond back to the field.

David King said about the Tigers: "giving away clearance to the opposition," as if by design. A Geelong supporter on this thread says it was not by design that the Tigers gave away clearance to the opposition but rather that winning clearances was not the Tigers' forte. Other Geelong supporters say that Richmond needed "more adaptibility," seemingly suggesting that the Tigers (3 flags in 4 years) must get better at winning clearances! But why, why did we have to get better at winning clearances?

In 2010 Collingwood smashed the Cats in the PF. Bomber Thompson's game plan was found wanting, and 'experts' like Tim Lane declared the Cats were too old and too slow. Yet the game plan was adapted and in 2011 the only side to beat Collingwood was Geelong - 3 times!

What's my point? A good team continues to evolve and adapt to changing conditions (rules, new game plans by contenders etc).

So the stand rule posed a serious threat to Richmond. Get over it! The 3rd man up rule impacted on Geelong big-time. Some Cats supporters felt the rule was aimed at Mark Blicavs, because he was the master at 3rd man up. But the Club moved on...

 

[Branko]

In 2010 Collingwood smashed the Cats in the PF. Bomber Thompson's game plan was found wanting, and 'experts' like Tim Lane declared the Cats were too old and too slow. Yet the game plan was adapted and in 2011 the only side to beat Collingwood was Geelong - 3 times!

You lost in 2010, so is it any wonder that a new coach would put his stamp on a team that fell short?

Richmond won in 2020 and our game plan was not found wanting.

What's my point? A good team continues to evolve and adapt to changing conditions (rules, new game plans by contenders etc).

But if winning clearances (which has nothing to do with "rules, new game plans by contenders") is not a teams forte and a new rule puts an emphasis on winning clearances what does the team that had a game plan that compensated for their weakness in winning clearances supposed to do? Get better at winning clearances?

You mention "new game plans by contenders," but what about Richmond's old game plan in 2020? That game plan did not get defeated in 2021, and why is it that no one was expected to adapt to the old game plan of the premier team of 2020? We are bound to agree with Gerard Whateley, that if they could've, they would've.

So the stand rule posed a serious threat to Richmond. Get over it!

I am over it, that doesn't mean I can't talk about it on the approriate thread.

The 3rd man up rule impacted on Geelong big-time. Some Cats supporters felt the rule was aimed at Mark Blicavs, because he was the master at 3rd man up. But the Club moved on...

I'd be interested in hearing what those Geelong supporters think about that, but this is not the thread. I know the rule was brought in after 2016 and that's about it.