Preview Hawthorn v Bulldogs, 3 August 2014, 3.20pm @ York Park

[Sleutheren]

Agree wholeheartedly. I think sometimes people forget just how hard it is to play as a defender, especially how the game is played these days.

As soon as Shoey makes one mistake, the whipping boots are put on. He is only human...

what's a whipping boot?

 

[Smooth Banana]

I think Ceglar is just being rested, has had a big season so far. Hale being given one more chance to prove himself this season.

Ceglar is being rested I reckon, unless Hale steps up and stays up. Otherwise out with the old and in with the new.

 

[Hawks1994]

what's a whipping boot?

Boots you do your whipping in.

I thought everyone had a pair...

 

[Smooth Banana]

Yep. The Schoey talk is regarding his selection in the team that plays Sunday.

Schoey ain't going anywhere. Last time I checked we are short on tall defenders..once Lake returns he won't be the main focus. Besides if it's crunch time he can swing forward. No way Clarko is dropping him come finals. The man swings dammit, a swinger.

 

[Smooth Banana]

Is this thread still about our game this week?

People are still enjoying it brother, let me really soak it in. Anyone else feel Sydney is the new enemy? I hated Geelong but at least they didn't cheat. P.s I still hate Geelong teeheehee

 

[Davo-27]

if we play our style of football and keep possesion we should win easily, i'm hoping for a few goals from Roughead/Gunston/Breust to hopefully get a decent win, because percentage could be the difference between 1st and 3rd at the end of the year

hoping for a 30+ win from the lads on Sunday down at possibly wet tassie.....

 

[Glasgow Hawk]

People are still enjoying it brother, let me really soak it in. Anyone else feel Sydney is the new enemy? I hated Geelong but at least they didn't cheat. P.s I still hate Geelong teeheehee

Just to give you a heads up SB, I'm female...
Anyway, I thought it was all about Schoey again!!

 

[Smooth Banana]

Just to give you a heads up SB, I'm female...
Anyway, I thought it was all about Schoey again!!

Ok sister, let em enjoy it )

 

[TheFourPillars]

You should get it though. One of Clarko's worst nightmares is having our defence isolated one out especially against mammoths.
Who do you think gets blamed when Shoey gets isolated one out and ultimately cops a smashing? the midfield. Clarko knows Shoey's limitations. Our midfield performing defensively corresponds with how Shoey performs.

That is true for every defence. have a look at what happened to richards when we started pumping the ball in there

 

[Smooth Banana]

Go the blues! What's happened to Freo they are sliding hard. Love it

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

That's way too much explaining which proves the point Schoenmakers ain't a very good defender! It's pretty simple really, he continually needs the third man up or he's cooked ( we are talking about high balls against monsters)! Tippett carves him up more often than not, don't just give Goals as evidence, when observing Forwards versus Defenders, the scoring shots should be counted and not just the goals FfS!
Anyway spoke to Brian Lake just yesterday at Broady Shopping Centre and he reckons he is ready to go and that he is counting days till he's back! I told him the 4 week suspension was a tad harsh, he kinda agreed but also said " that's what you get for choking someone lololo". Yep, can't wait for Lake to be back and I couldn't give a stuff whether Spangher or Schoenmakers are the ones sacrificed.

Lake said lololo. WTF?

Also did he point you in the direction of some #briansbargains?

 

[dipper86]

That is true for every defence. have a look at what happened to richards when we started pumping the ball in there

There is a difference though...Richards wasn't beaten one out. Roughead didn't beat him or throw him around in a show of strength in a contested style of game.....he was beaten on the lead which is what I can live with. Some of the kicks Roughead received from our a midfield was undefendable.

In contrast, teams want to isolate Shoey and kick it on the forwards head one out.

 

[heh]

Cos Stratts, Gibbo and Lithers all looked like superstar defenders in that first half, it was only Schoe getting beaten. *head desk* rinse, repeat.

While I have been loving Cegs work, I haven't forgotten Hale's massive finals campaign last year, hopefully the big dude can find some of his form, because he would be very handy in finals again if firing.

Really hoping Woody gets some proper game time this week. It will be interesting to see what he can produce. He hit some contests pretty hard in the short amount of time he was on last week, and it would be interesting to see him in the middle.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

It certainly makes roughy's 4 goal, 8 scoring shot, 18 possession, 7 mark game on all australian Ted Richards look pretty good.

If Shoe could play like Richards/Grundy we win by 4-5 goals instead of 10 points IMO.

He allows too many easy balls/marks/goals for mine. If a ball is in the air and Shoe is in a one-on-one then there is a 90% chance that the opposition forward will mark the ball.

Compare how easy the marks that the $wans had in the forward line were compared to us. Grundy/Richards/Smith scrag their opponents constantly and make them earn everything. Think how easy Tippett did it compared to Bruest for example.

When a ball comes in Shoe will look at the ball, look at his opponent, look and the ball, loot at his opponent, and then try to engage his opponent. Good defenders will do 1 of 2 things.

1 - take the superior position and back themselves to take the mark or spoil.
2 - engage an opponent if they are already in the better position and make them earn it.

Shoe does neither. Pretty tired of waiting for it to turn around to be honest.

I think he has talent, but as a forward.

 

[Turly]

Farrr out Clarko.

Hale has one good game at Box Hill and Cegz gets dropped.

Hopefully just a rest otherwise I will not be a happy chappy.

 

[SSSSSS]

Agree RE:Ceglar. Bit stiff thought he had runs on the board after a solid month. However Hale usually comes good around this time here's hoping.

If not Ceglar gets a much needed rest.

 

[Davo-27]

i'll be devils advocate here: Ceglar got beaten in an important finals like game, Hale is a proven finals campaigner, so drop Ceglar and see if Hale can perform leading into the finals, if not throw Ceglar back in and give him a chance......i would say this is the HFC thoughts with this decision?

 

[WWSD]

Farrr out Clarko.

Hale has one good game at Box Hill and Cegz gets dropped.

Hopefully just a rest otherwise I will not be a happy chappy.

Agree. I don't understand the thought process behind that one either.

Ceglar has done a tremendous job in the ruck this year and has shouldered the bulk of the ruck work while Hale and McEvoy form has been up and down. Hale was good for Box Hill last week, but one good match doesn't necessarily warrant being selected again. Hopefully Hale can put in a solid effort now that he's back in the side for this week otherwise he'll be back at Box Hill very soon.

 

[TyHawk]

Of the two of us I am the only one who has posted any evidence whatsoever. How about you go through the stats and point out to me something that shows Tippett monsters Shoey? How about you compare Shoey's record to other key defenders of his age when all these monster forwards were allegedly taking him apart? If you are going to claim a 9 disposal, 2 goal (only 1 of which was directly against Shoey), 6 mark game is carving up the key defender then by all means demonstrate that other key defenders are not equally 'carved up' by Tippett - that would at least provide some context.

2012 both games. Go check it out yourself.

 

[TyHawk]

Hard to like a post when it finishes in a puddle of warm dribble.

In other teams you wouldn't be so protective of average players. This is about winning Premeirships not 'I like this bloke so let's play him' contests.

 

[TyHawk]

Lake said lololo. WTF?

Also did he point you in the direction of some #briansbargains?

Actually he did. Have you seen his Norm Smith Medal that he won with Hawthorn?

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

Actually he did. Have you seen his Norm Smith Medal that he won with Hawthorn?

I'm not sure where this is going, but continue....

 

[Flukey!]

Considering Cegs got subbed out last week, his omission is less of a surprise to me.
Truth be known I would rather Hale come finals time.

 

[TeamPlayer23]

To blame shoey for other players leaving their man and failing to impact a contest is beyond ridiculous. All teams have defenders peel off their men and spoil third man up. Maybe you should be pointing the figure at gibbo and Stratton for not punching the ball clear.

By all means support your story with stats you supply yourself. From memory this occurred zero times against Sydney and few if any times this year. You probably need to go back to 2012 to find games in which that happened which is basically my point...shoey is getting judged based on things that happened largely in 2011 and a little in 2012.

First to answer the top part of your post: If Shoey had the confidence to attack the ball instead of always been focused on his man, as others on here and on the other thread have pointed out, and take a few contested marks, their wouldn't be a need for Gibbo and others coming across to spoil the ball, contiguously living their man free roaming around and kicking easy goals.
And it did happen in the Swans game watch the replay and in the start of the third quarter theirs a perfect example of what iam talking about how Goodes gets the easiest goals because four of our defenders are trying to help out Schoey..

Second: this whole debate started because I gave my honest opinion, that I feel much more confident with Spangher in the side playing in defence then Schoenmakers, from what I have seen this year.
You've said the opposite, and you've tried to prove your case by stats and in your many posts here and on the other thread is Schoey in our top 22.

Ok well lets look at this years stats between the two:
And lets not even start taking in to consideration stats of contested marking.

Matt Spangher2014 Season Average
Games Played 8
Kicks 10.4
Handballs 4.9
Disposals 15.2
Marks 5.6
Tackles 1.9
Ranked 20th in One Percenters Per Game in the League
Schoenmakers 2014SeasonAverage
Games Played 11
Kicks 10.2
Handballs 4.5
Disposals 14.7
Marks 4.5
Ranked 46th in One Percenters Per Game in the League

So according to your so called stats and with Spangher having played 2 less games then Schoenmakers who's been the better play this year??

 

[MrFujiMoto]

First to answer the top part of your post: If Shoey had the confidence to attack the ball instead of always been focused on his man, as others on here and on the other thread have pointed out, and take a few contested marks, their wouldn't be a need for Gibbo and others coming across to spoil the ball, contiguously living their man free roaming around and kicking easy goals.
And it did happen in the Swans game watch the replay and in the start of the third quarter theirs a perfect example of what iam talking about how Goodes gets the easiest goals because four of our defenders are trying to help out Schoey..

Second: this whole debate started because I gave my honest opinion, that I feel much more confident with Spangher in the side playing in defence then Schoenmakers, from what I have seen this year.
You've said the opposite, and you've tried to prove your case by stats and in your many posts here and on the other thread is Schoey in our top 22.

Ok well lets look at this years stats between the two:
And lets not even start taking in to consideration stats of contested marking.

Matt Spangher2014 Season Average
Games Played 8
Kicks 10.4
Handballs 4.9
Disposals 15.2
Marks 5.6
Tackles 1.9
Ranked 20th in One Percenters Per Game in the League
Schoenmakers 2014SeasonAverage
Games Played 11
Kicks 10.2
Handballs 4.5
Disposals 14.7
Marks 4.5
Ranked 46th in One Percenters Per Game in the League

So according to your so called stats and with Spangher having played 2 less games then Schoenmakers who's been the better play this year??

I think you will have to agree to disagree with this one mate. I did in another thread. I rate some of what Bris is saying but he just won't hear the fact that Schoey, at this time, is our weak link in defence.

My argument is basically the same as yours, that if he concentrated on going the ball, he would far more stable a defender and win more contests. Your point about us having a defensive strategy that works best with a man having to be free to go 3rd up is an excellent point. I wonder why we have this strategy as part of our number 1 defensive arsenal???

I also argued that he typically has a moment or 2 most games that directly costs a goal (and I am not talking about the situations where he is completely out marked by a forward). He has talent and potential but at this stage I would have Spangher in the side for the following reasons -

1. He is simply more desperate at the ball and the contest and, coming into finals, you can't underestimate that (As evidenced by the 1%ers stat above)
2. He is just as capable (not ideal) one on one as Schoey at this stage
3. He seems stronger in the contest than Schoey
4. He has the same flexibility as Schoey and has played great games forward late last year
5. Makes better decisions coming out of defence than Schoey does at this time

I think Schoey has a big future but, as I said in another thread, he is not even playing as well as he was at the start of last year. It will be interesting to see who comes out of the side when Lake comes in. It will be one of Spangh or Schoey, I wonder who will stand up over the next few weeks.