wayne carey v gary ablett snr

[Procrastinator35]

This is a fallacy. Regarded by many as the GOAT but unlike Bradman, not universally by any stretch. And his statistical superiority isn't a scratch on Bradman's either. In fact, Matthews doesn't lead the pack in any single statistical field. Not very Bradman like at all if you ask me.

Fundamentally incorrect.

Barney is far & away the most prolific goal-kicking midfielder in the competitions history....Only K.B comes within a Bull's roar of him.

Barney kicked 915 goals from 332 games @ a 2.76 average....K.B 778 goals from 403 games @ a 1.93 average.

When you deduct the 70 extra games & add in their average differentials, Barney comes out over 250 goals ahead.

If we take Barney's average as the equivalent measure to Bradman....I.E approx 100%....K.B comes in around 70%, similar to Leonard Hutton's average...With all other mids having played over 100 games, batting at less than a 60% average.

The only Conclusion:....Barney is irrefutably the Don Bradman of VFL/AFL footy.

Let's face it mate you are the one that raised Bradman and now you cannot back up your argument. Just admit that your analogy was wrong.

See above..

Finally: Barney is the only footballer to 20 & 3 on 5 separate occasions/seasons, from a 20 game minimum....Like the man said: Bradman-esque.

 

[Lethality]

Let's face it mate you are the one that raised Bradman and now you cannot back up your argument. Just admit that your analogy was wrong.

I've heard these arguments before, it's not like you surprised me with anything new. Matthews statistics are uniquely outstanding in our game, same as Bradman.

 

[HalloweenJack]

I've heard these arguments before, it's not like you surprised me with anything new. Matthews statistics are uniquely outstanding in our game, same as Bradman.

No they aren't and I don't have to surprise you with anything new because I am not making the ridiculous claims. You are. Bradman's batting statistics are uniquely outstanding. You need to educate yourself before coming on to an internet forum and making assertions and claims that are not only unjustified but without foundation.

As for Matthews place in the history of AFL/VFL that is not in dispute but what is in dispute is the claim that he is the GOAT. No such claims can be made against Bradman as being (at least as a batsmen) the GOAT.

 

[Lethality]

No they aren't and I don't have to surprise you with anything new because I am not making the ridiculous claims. You are. Bradman's batting statistics are uniquely outstanding. You need to educate yourself before coming on to an internet forum and making assertions and claims that are not only unjustified but without foundation.

As for Matthews place in the history of AFL/VFL that is not in dispute but what is in dispute is the claim that he is the GOAT. No such claims can be made against Bradman as being (at least as a batsmen) the GOAT.

The surprise factor was mentioned because you seemed to think I had not anticipated the response. Ive heard these arguments before, and they are ridiculous. Yes Bradman dominates a single stat, but that's just the nature of batting. Matthews dominates over multiple stats, which is what you'd expect in our game. It's no less significant because of being across more than one stat, unless you're after footballing one trick ponies.

 

[M Malice]

Fundamentally incorrect.

Barney is far & away the most prolific goal-kicking midfielder in the competitions history....Only K.B comes within a Bull's roar of him.

Barney kicked 915 goals from 332 games @ a 2.76 average....K.B 778 goals from 403 games @ a 1.93 average.

When you deduct the 70 extra games & add in their average differentials, Barney comes out over 250 goals ahead.

If we take Barney's average as the equivalent measure to Bradman....I.E approx 100%....K.B comes in around 70%, similar to Leonard Hutton's average...With all other mids having played over 100 games, batting at less than a 60% average.

The only Conclusion:....Barney is irrefutably the Don Bradman of VFL/AFL footy.



See above..

Finally: Barney is the only footballer to 20 & 3 on 5 separate occasions/seasons, from a 20 game minimum....Like the man said: Bradman-esque.

good statistical argument- but are you saying that leigh matthews is nearly twice as good an AFL player as carey, ablett snr, lockett, hodge, ablett jnr?

bradman was an absolute freak and so far in front of any batsmen that has ever lived it is not even a contest. surely you are not saying that about leigh? love leigh by the way, took us to a 3peat and current member of our board.

 

[Procrastinator35]

good statistical argument- but are you saying that leigh matthews is nearly twice as good an AFL player as carey, ablett snr, lockett, hodge, ablett jnr?

bradman was an absolute freak and so far in front of any batsmen that has ever lived it is not even a contest. surely you are not saying that about leigh? love leigh by the way, took us to a 3peat and current member of our board.

I've supplied a statistical context in which Barney can be directly compared to the Don....,When measured against all other midfielders in the history of the game; Barney's goal-kicking feats are Bradman-esque by comparison.

That's as simple an irrefutable fact as you can get, stats wise.

Further: Barney kicked most of them when the game was on the line & was there to be won....He was the most consistent match-winner there's ever been; Carey & Ablett Senior included....And unlike most in these forums, I was watching footy across the whole of their careers, other than Barney's first 4 seasons.

You can't make a fair & accurate assessment for him against the great key forwards, as it's horses for courses....That's like comparing the Don to bowlers.

 

[M Malice]

I've supplied a statistical context in which Barney can be directly compared to the Don....,When measured against all other midfielders in the history of the game; Barney's goal-kicking feats are Bradman-esque by comparison.

That's as simple an irrefutable fact as you can get, stats wise.

Further: Barney kicked most of them when the game was on the line & was there to be won....He was the most consistent match-winner there's ever been; Carey & Ablett Senior included....And unlike most in these forums, I was watching footy across the whole of their careers, other than Barney's first 4 seasons.

You can't make a fair & accurate assessment for him against the great key forwards, as it's horses for courses....That's like comparing the Don to bowlers.

fair enough, i only started watching AFL in the late 90s so am coming purely from the comparison of leigh to the don, (i usually do not pass too much comment on players i have not seen play) if he was nearly twice as good as the best mids i have seen eg. ablett jnr, judd, voss, mitchell etc.. he must have been one hell of a player, i can't even envision a player being twice as good as ablett jnr.
i still believe that basing player comparisons on mostly statistical arguments is no where near as applicable in sports like AFL, rugby league/union, soccer, hockey etc. as sports like baseball, cricket, golf etc. which can be more simply and definitively argued with statistical information.
playing footy to me is much more nuanced and intangible. so in saying that i will accept your premise as you have seen said players play as per my own guidelines for player judgment.

 

[Procrastinator35]

fair enough, i only started watching AFL in the late 90s so am coming purely from the comparison of leigh to the don, (i usually do not pass too much comment on players i have not seen play) if he was nearly twice as good as the best mids i have seen eg. ablett jnr, judd, voss, mitchell etc.. he must have been one hell of a player, i can't even envision a player being twice as good as ablett jnr.
i still believe that basing player comparisons on mostly statistical arguments is no where near as applicable in sports like AFL, rugby league/union, soccer, hockey etc. as sports like baseball, cricket, golf etc. which can be more simply and definitively argued with statistical information.
playing footy to me is much more nuanced and intangible. so in saying that i will accept your premise as you have seen said players play as per my own guidelines for player judgment.

I haven't said he was twice as good....Those are your words.

What I have demonstrated stats-wise, was that he is head & shoulders above all other midfielders in the history of the comp, when it comes to goal-kicking prowess...That is what made him such a dangerous player & a match-winner to boot.

 

[M Malice]

I haven't said he was twice as good....Those are your words.

What I have demonstrated stats-wise, was that he is head & shoulders above all other midfielders in the history of the comp, when it comes to goal-kicking prowess...That is what made him such a dangerous player & a match-winner to boot.

my original post on this topic was a comment on a discussion between gearjammer85 and Lethality where the basis of that dispute was that matthews was the bradman of the AFL with lethality using statistics to back up his points and gearjammer85 disagreeing with that.
statistically (cricket, a very statistical/numbers based game) bradman was very nearly twice as good as any other batsmen to play the game, that is the reason for "twice as good" in my post.

 

[Lethality]

Further: Barney kicked most of them when the game was on the line & was there to be won....He was the most consistent match-winner there's ever been; Carey & Ablett Senior included....And unlike most in these forums, I was watching footy across the whole of their careers, other than Barney's first 4 seasons.

It's true.

Even in his second last game he was winning big games for Hawthorn off his own boot.

 

[Procrastinator35]

my original post on this topic was a comment on a discussion between gearjammer85 and Lethality where the basis of that dispute was that matthews was the bradman of the AFL with lethality using statistics to back up his points and gearjammer85 disagreeing with that.
statistically (cricket, a very statistical/numbers based game) bradman was very nearly twice as good as any other batsmen to play the game, that is the reason for "twice as good" in my post.

Bradman's test average was 99.94.....The next Best is Graeme Pollock on 61....That's not twice as good, else Bradman would be averaging 120.

Bradman is head & shoulders above the rest, from a batting average perspective, as Barney is head & shoulders above all other mid-fielders, from a goal-kicking perspective.

That's pretty clear.

 

[Elite Master]

 

[Lethality]

The thing I noticed from compiling Leigh Matthews videos is how prominent he is in every game.

 

[Procrastinator35]

 

[M Malice]

Bradman's test average was 99.94.....The next Best is Graeme Pollock on 61....That's not twice as good, else Bradman would be averaging 120.

Bradman is head & shoulders above the rest, from a batting average perspective, as Barney is head & shoulders above all other mid-fielders, from a goal-kicking perspective.

That's pretty clear.

i will agree to disagree. if going by statistics i see bradman as maybe the most outstanding sports person the world has ever seen when compared to his contemporaries, probably the only one better to my reckoning would be heather mckay (squash), never lost a competitive match over about 15 years from memory.
cricket v AFL = chalk v cheese

 

[M Malice]

a lot of chat on this poll (carey v ablett snr) about lethal the lion, might start a poll. "is leigh matthews as far in front of any other midfielder to play AFL as don bradman was in front of any batsmen to play cricket?"

 

[Lethality]

a lot of chat on this poll (carey v ablett snr) about lethal the lion, might start a poll. "is leigh matthews as far in front of any other midfielder to play AFL as don bradman was in front of any batsmen to play cricket?"

If a player can win 22+ possessions a game over 300 games or kick 900 goals over that period he'll likely be considered an all-time great. Lethal did both at the same time. There is no argument.

 

[gearjammer85]

The thing I noticed from compiling Leigh Matthews videos is how prominent he is in every game.

The thing l noticed is the awful quality. Is it taken from inside your fish tank, Podge? You surely don't put much effort to fix the quality. Look at Bobby's Gary Snr video highlights. Brilliant editing, excellent picture quality even footage from the 80's.

There exists footage of Hank Williams Snr in much finer picture and sound quality. True!

 

[gearjammer85]

It's true.

Even in his second last game he was winning big games for Hawthorn off his own boot.

All goals from close range AGAIN and opposition that had not played finals since 1976.

 

[Lethality]

The thing l noticed is the awful quality. Is it taken from inside your fish tank, Podge? You surely don't put much effort to fix the quality. Look at Bobby's Gary Snr video highlights. Brilliant editing, excellent picture quality even footage from the 80's.

There exists footage of Hank Williams Snr in much finer picture and sound quality. True!

It's the same picture quality, it depends largely on the recording of the actual video.

All goals from close range AGAIN and opposition that had not played finals since 1976.

Both irrelevant. Picture quality, range, history of opposition. You don't bring up anything salient.

 

[gearjammer85]

It's the same picture quality, it depends largely on the recording of the actual video.




Both irrelevant. Picture quality, range, history of opposition. You don't bring up anything salient.

What I bring up are facts with substance.

 

[Procrastinator35]

a lot of chat on this poll (carey v ablett snr) about lethal the lion, might start a poll. "Is Lethal Leigh Matthews as far in front of any other midfielder to play AFL as don bradman was in front of any batsmen to play cricket?"

On a goals per game ratio?

Yes....Yes he is.

 

[Monkey King]

Fundamentally incorrect.

Barney is far & away the most prolific goal-kicking midfielder in the competitions history....Only K.B comes within a Bull's roar of him.

Barney kicked 915 goals from 332 games @ a 2.76 average....K.B 778 goals from 403 games @ a 1.93 average.

That's not Bradman like at all. Not in the slightest. It's not even a 50% statistical advantage in goals alone kicked, let alone nudging 100% like Bradman (and that's from a guy who even spent a season at fullforward); and then in disposals, there is barely any advantage at all between he and Barlett. Nothing like Bradman.

Then look at a guy like Garry Wilson, who played first rover for a greater percentage of his career than did Matthews, with a clear advantage over him in average disposals and basically just a goal p/game less. Yes, those goals add up over 300+ games, but you'd expect a guy who spent more time in the forward line to average a goal a game more wouldn't you?

Then comes Dick Harris, Richmond forward/rover from the 30-40's, who has a better goal average than Matthews. We don't have his disposal stats, so can't compare on that front, but you'd assume they were lower.

No. Bradman has a statistic completely unmatched by anyone in Cricket's history. Matthews just doesn't have this. You have to concoct couple-stats that reflect as much the positions in which he played (and doing extremely well at both) as it does how great a player he really was. We don't need to be so creative with Bradman. That's why he is Bradman.

 

[Monkey King]

If a player can win 22+ possessions a game over 300 games or kick 900 goals over that period he'll likely be considered an all-time great. Lethal did both at the same time. There is no argument.

I don't think anyone is arguing Matthews isn't an all-time great. He's one the best if not the best, but there is no Bradman-like separation between Matthews and the rest of the field. These are two different arguments completely, so you probably shouldn't mix the two together.

Tbh, I wouldn't have Matthews in my best midfield. I think there were better rovers; but he's sure get a slot up forward and a run through the mid rotations (a role he played for a lot of his career), because he was still a great midfielder and he was exceptionally dangerous up forward. A unique package.

As for GOAT, I flip-flop between Matthews and Carey. Ablett isn't all that far behind them. One of the most watchable players I've ever seen is GAS.

 

[M Malice]

If a player can win 22+ possessions a game over 300 games or kick 900 goals over that period he'll likely be considered an all-time great. Lethal did both at the same time. There is no argument.

total agreement with that post.

On a goals per game ratio?

Yes....Yes he is.

never saw lethal play, so going by the recorded history of the game and the views of leading AFL pundits over the years lethal is obviously in the top few players to ever play the game and possibly the GOAT, as Monkey King gearjammer85 and HalloweenJack have also stated.
it is just the assertion that he has a bradman like dominance over any other midfeilder to ever play the game that i think all 4 of us don't agree with.