wayne carey v gary ablett snr

[Lethality]

That's not Bradman like at all. Not in the slightest. It's not even a 50% statistical advantage in goals alone kicked, let alone nudging 100% like Bradman (and that's from a guy who even spent a season at fullforward); and then in disposals, there is barely any advantage at all between he and Barlett. Nothing like Bradman.

Then look at a guy like Garry Wilson, who played first rover for a greater percentage of his career than did Matthews, with a clear advantage over him in average disposals and basically just a goal p/game less. Yes, those goals add up over 300+ games, but you'd expect a guy who spent more time in the forward line to average a goal a game more wouldn't you?

Then comes Dick Harris, Richmond forward/rover from the 30-40's, who has a better goal average than Matthews. We don't have his disposal stats, so can't compare on that front, but you'd assume they were lower.

No. Bradman has a statistic completely unmatched by anyone in Cricket's history. Matthews just doesn't have this. You have to concoct couple-stats that reflect as much the positions in which he played (and doing extremely well at both) as it does how great a player he really was. We don't need to be so creative with Bradman. That's why he is Bradman.

Matthews has better stats than all of them. Harris was predominantly a forward pocket, which is where he is lined up in grand finals for instance. Also, a goal less per game isn't 'just' anything for a midfielder. It more than represents a Bradman gap between midfielders, particularly when a midfielder is in the rarified air matthews is in

 

[Monkey King]

Matthews has better stats than all of them. Harris was predominantly a forward pocket, which is where he is lined up in grand finals for instance. Also, a goal less per game isn't 'just' anything for a midfielder. It more than represents a Bradman gap between midfielders, particularly when a midfielder is in the rarified air matthews is in

Except Matthews wasn't 'just' a midfielder. He played a massive chunk of his career as a forward or 2nd rover. Far more than Wilson did.

Nah. Harris also lined up as first rover in GF's; and State games too. Just as Matthews lined up as a forward in GF's. No player is going to get that goal average unless they spend a considerable amount of time forward. Matthews is no different. As it stands, Harris betters Matthews goal average. Wilson betters Matthews' disposal averages. The differences reflect as much the split in which part of the ground they spent their time, as it does them as players.

What is clear though, is that there is no Bradman like supremacy. If Matthews doubled everyone else in at least one of those stats of your manufactured paring, then you might be talking, but he doesn't even lead in either of them when it comes to forward/rovers, let alone double anyone. It's a manufactured claim to begin with, but even as a manufactured claim it falls flat. Sorry, but that's just a clear statistical fact.

 

[HalloweenJack]

Except Matthews wasn't 'just' a midfielder. He played a massive chunk of his career as a forward or 2nd rover. Far more than Wilson did.

Nah. Harris also lined up as first rover in GF's; and State games too. Just as Matthews lined up as a forward in GF's. No player is going to get that goal average unless they spend a considerable amount of time forward. Matthews is no different. As it stands, Harris betters Matthews goal average. Wilson betters Matthews' disposal averages. The differences reflect as much the split in which part of the ground they spent their time, as it does them as players.

What is clear though, is that there is no Bradman like supremacy. If Matthews doubled everyone else in at least one of those stats of your manufactured paring, then you might be talking, but he doesn't even lead in either of them when it comes to forward/rovers, let alone double anyone. It's a manufactured claim to begin with, but even as a manufactured claim it falls flat. Sorry, but that's just a clear statistical fact.

I am glad that you have the time to do this. Bradman's statistical advantage (over a long career) is pretty much without parallel in all sports. The only other sportsmen/women that I can think that rival it are Heather McKay, Wayne Gretsky, Walter Lindrum and Kelly Slater. He is right up there with a few select people. Matthews as good as he was is not in that stratosphere and that is no slant on Lethal it is just a fact.

 

[footyfan1978]

Geez, I know we all tend to have our favourite players but this over the top fanboy hype on Matthews is stretching reality to make out he is anything like Bradman was to his sport. If he was, some of us neutrals would have talked him up in the time he played. I remember watching Matthews. He was a great player, but he was just one of the champions of the time I started watching football. It was not like he was any Gary Abeltt or Carey type of his era in terms of adulation and pulling power to watch play for neutral fans. Bradman was the name of cricket in his time and many decades later still amazes with his records. The game even had Bodyline to try to bring one player undone. Geez, Matthews had nothing like that to our footy game he was just one of the many stars of the late 70's and early 1980's like the great Robbie Flower and Malcolm Blight just to name two. He was not universally claimed at time as if head and shoulders above them. Don't even remember thinking for one second he was best at time. Probably marvelled at Blight and Flower a lot more. Further more this thread I believe is about Ablett and Carey. Fair enough a temporary side track mentioning other players for a few posts but this is beyond a joke to keep this nonsense up so far off topic for so many posts. Give it a bloody rest or close the thread now.

For mine Ablett greater than Carey of the two most universally named best players of last three four decades.

 

[franjon]

Geez, I know we all tend to have our favourite players but this over the top fanboy hype on Matthews is stretching reality to make out he is anything like Bradman was to his sport. If he was, some of us neutrals would have talked him up in the time he played. I remember watching Matthews. He was a great player, but he was just one of the champions of the time I started watching football. It was not like he was any Gary Abeltt or Carey type of his era in terms of adulation and pulling power to watch play for neutral fans. Bradman was the name of cricket in his time and many decades later still amazes with his records. The game even had Bodyline to try to bring one player undone. Geez, Matthews had nothing like that to our footy game he was just one of the many stars of the late 70's and early 1980's like the great Robbie Flower and Malcolm Blight just to name two. He was not universally claimed at time as if head and shoulders above them. Don't even remember thinking for one second he was best at time. Probably marvelled at Blight and Flower a lot more. Further more this thread I believe is about Ablett and Carey. Fair enough a temporary side track mentioning other players for a few posts but this is beyond a joke to keep this nonsense up so far off topic for so many posts. Give it a bloody rest or close the thread now.

For mine Ablett greater than Carey of the two most universally named best players of last three four decades.

I saw Matthews play and he is up there, anyway back on topic where's the both option? Carey at CHF and Ablett on a flank, nobody would've beaten them or won too many blues.

 

[footyfan1978]

I saw Matthews play and he is up there, anyway back on topic where's the both option? Carey at CHF and Ablett on a flank, nobody would've beaten them or won too many blues.

I actually enjoyed watching Ablett on the flank or wing more. Still remember his first state game for Victoria in Perth and the West Aussie commentators in for a shock as they had never seen him before. Some of the clowns that day kept calling him Geoff Ablett on the tv call. He kicked 8 goals against them and was fun seeing him with freedom of running from flanks and wings all they way up forward line rather than be restricted to being a leading forward in the later 80's and early 90's. I enjoyed the first part of his career the best when he was a winger/flanker type as got to see all his skills and not just the goal kicking exploits from forward line.

 

[franjon]

I actually enjoyed watching Ablett on the flank or wing more. Still remember his first state game for Victoria in Perth and the West Aussie commentators in for a shock as they had never seen him before. Some of the clowns that day kept calling him Geoff Ablett on the tv call. He kicked 8 goals against them and was fun seeing him with freedom of running from flanks and wings all they way up forward line rather than be restricted to being a leading forward in the later 80's and early 90's. I enjoyed the first part of his career the best when he was a winger/flanker type as got to see all his skills and not just the goal kicking exploits from forward line.

Being a Carlton supporter could you imagine a half forward line of Johnston, Carey, Ablett, with Jimmy Buckley and Jim Krakouer roaming as the small forwards? Most opposition defences would be frightened to go down there.

 

[gearjammer85]

Not doubt Matthews was a champion, great, legendary footballer. One of the best, top 3 in my book. I just wanna point out to younger footy fans on this forum, if we are going by skill, freakish ability, natural talent, Gary Ablett Snr is that far ahead of Leigh Matthews it's almost laughable. Carey and Matthews may very well were 'better' in what they achieved compared to Snr or as Podge has bought up many times 'getting the job done' and stats, percentages etc... but come on, lets no be silly in regards to those who saw Ablett Snr play. He was that much more exciting and talented than Matthews, please, let's not be be ignorant about this for those who remember both of their careers. That's why Gary Ablett Snr is the Michael Jordan of Australian Rules Footy. But I have never once said Matthews wasn't a great footballer on this site. He just never did nothing for me. I'd rather watch Blight, Daicos, Jezza and Snr.

If we're gonna talk about Mathews as a midfielder alone, in my opinion Greg Williams was better. Of course Matthews being better around goals.

Any chance of this thread returning to Carey v Ablett Snr.

 

[gearjammer85]

I actually enjoyed watching Ablett on the flank or wing more. Still remember his first state game for Victoria in Perth and the West Aussie commentators in for a shock as they had never seen him before. Some of the clowns that day kept calling him Geoff Ablett on the tv call. He kicked 8 goals against them and was fun seeing him with freedom of running from flanks and wings all they way up forward line rather than be restricted to being a leading forward in the later 80's and early 90's. I enjoyed the first part of his career the best when he was a winger/flanker type as got to see all his skills and not just the goal kicking exploits from forward line.

I remember this game clearly. 8 goals from a wing/half forward against the best WA side and when State of Origin was taken seriously.

 

[Procrastinator35]

total agreement with that post.

never saw lethal play, so going by the recorded history of the game and the views of leading AFL pundits over the years lethal is obviously in the top few players to ever play the game and possibly the GOAT, as Monkey King gearjammer85 and HalloweenJack have also stated.
it is just the assertion that he has a bradman like dominance over any other midfeilder to ever play the game that i think all 4 of us don't agree with.

What can I say jason pm?....I never came up with the quote....It's attributed to a football columnist I believe.

Barney's ability to turn a game & put it to bed, is the single most characteristic attribute that defines His career....More often & more tellingly than any other single footballer to play the game....That's what defines a champion & that is why- without question - he's the GOAT.

His ability & consistency in winning matches off his own boot//bat was & still remains Bradman-Esque....Regardless of what Monkey says to the contrary.

 

[gearjammer85]

And Snr did get the job done by being a match winner. On how many occasions was he quiet or well held for 3 quarters and then only to turn it on in the last. Having said this, I can recall at least 10 games where Snr lost games for Geelong due to bad kicking. But it proves he had no problem getting the ball but let himself down with missed set shots, and some from close range. If there was one weakness in his game it was his set shots for goal, no doubt. This is where Lockett and Dunstall were better than Snr.

 

[Procrastinator35]

If we're gonna talk about Mathews as a midfielder alone, in my opinion Greg Williams was better. Of course Matthews being better around goals.

LOL....Williams would jump the fence to get away from him....Barney at 21-25 was one mean wrecking machine.

Barney would wipe the floor with him.

 

[franjon]

What can I say jason pm?....I never came up with the quote....It's attributed to a football columnist I believe.

Barney's ability to turn a game & put it to bed, is the single most characteristic attribute that defines His career....More often & more tellingly than any other single footballer to play the game....That's what defines a champion & that is why- without question - he's the GOAT.

His ability & consistency in winning matches off his own boot//bat was & still remains Bradman-Esque....Regardless of what Monkey says to the contrary.

You can't argue Barney's stat's. 915 goals from 332 odd games. The man was a champion, and a vicious bastard. Add him to the forward line of Carey Ablett Johnston Buckley Krakouer, not only would've there been some serious football being played, and some serious drinking, there would've also been some serious violence.

 

[Lethality]

Except Matthews wasn't 'just' a midfielder. He played a massive chunk of his career as a forward or 2nd rover. Far more than Wilson did.

It only makes his possession average more impressive. As a package, his stats are far greater than any midfielder's including Wilson.

Nah. Harris also lined up as first rover in GF's; and State games too. Just as Matthews lined up as a forward in GF's.

Matthews was only listed as a forward in Grand Finals towards the end, whereas Harris was listed there in his prime. Richmond's ToTC committee don't list him anywhere, but a 'second team' also lists him as a small forward.

What is clear though, is that there is no Bradman like supremacy. If Matthews doubled everyone else

Bradman didn't double everyone else. In terms of a Bradman type statistical gap, that certainly exists.

Geez, I know we all tend to have our favourite players but this over the top fanboy hype on Matthews is stretching reality to make out he is anything like Bradman was to his sport. If he was, some of us neutrals would have talked him up in the time he played.

He certainly was talked up to that extent. Now for anyone since to have got near him, they would also have to be Bradman-esque compared to players of Matthews era and prior, and that just hasn't happened.

 

[Elite Master]

Bradman was far and away a more dominate Cricketer than "Barney" lol was at football.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Bradman was far and away a more dominate Cricketer than "Barney" lol was at football.

His 115 goals against your mob must till rankle huh?....How's Keith Greigs' spine & Barry Cables' jaw these days?.....Missing out on the B2B because of Barney, must really grate on a Roos fan....I know my brother, as a Roos supporter, still froths at the mouth, at the mere mention of his name.

 

[gearjammer85]

LOL....Williams would jump the fence to get away from him....Barney at 21-25 was one mean wrecking machine.

Barney would wipe the floor with him.

Rubbish! Greg Williams was much more talented than Matthews by hand and foot. If you want start on stats, check his out on AFL Tables, his career with Geelon, Sydney and Carlton.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Rubbish! Greg Williams was much more talented than Matthews by hand and foot. If you want start on stats, check his out on AFL Tables, his career with Geelon, Sydney and Carlton.

LOL....How many goals did he kick again?.....Not to mention the fact, he was an A-grade sook & mercenary, who chased the $$$.

 

[Monkey King]

Matthews was only listed as a forward in Grand Finals towards the end, whereas Harris was listed there in his prime.

Not true. Matthews was named in the FP in the 1971 GF.

Harris was a forward/rover, of this there is no doubt. He was listed in GF and State teams as first rover and in other GF teams as second rover. Matthews also was listed in both positions in GF's.

What we have are two forward/rovers and Harris averaged more goals than Matthews did. These are the facts. Harris may well have played in the forward line more than Matthews, just as Matthews played in the forward line more than Wilson. This is simply the variable of your manufactured stat.

Anyway, no need to continue polluting this thread with your Matthews obsession. I've made another thread and I suggest you can take the discussion here.

 

[gearjammer85]

LOL....How many goals did he kick again?.....Not to mention the fact, he was an A-grade sook & mercenary, who chased the $$$.

How many goals did he set up though? His skills were brilliant on both sides and better than Matthews. Regarding chasing the dollar and being a sook, I can't defend him there.

Can we all now please go back to Duck v Gazza Snr.

 

[Procrastinator35]

How many goals did he set up though? His skills were brilliant on both sides and better than Matthews. .

Sounds like a perfect description of Sam Mitchell.....The most score-chain/goal involvements for a non-forward in 2015.

Not true. Matthews was named in the FP in the 1971 GF.

Harris was a forward/rover, of this there is no doubt. He was listed in GF and State teams as first rover and in other GF teams as second rover. Matthews also was listed in both positions in GF's.

What we have are two forward/rovers and Harris averaged more goals than Matthews did. These are the facts. Harris may well have played in the forward line more than Matthews, just as Matthews played in the forward line more than Wilson. This is simply the variable of your manufactured stat.

Anyway, no need to continue polluting this thread with your Matthews obsession. I've made another thread and I suggest you can take the discussion here.

Well Barney was 2nd rover to Crimmo in 1971, so yes.

Harris was small by today's standards , but he was the permanent full-forward....Stop making s**t up.

 

[gearjammer85]

Sounds like a perfect description of Sam Mitchell.....The most score-chain/goal involvements for a non-forward in 2015.



Well Barney was 2nd rover to Crimmo in 1971, so yes.

Harris was small by today's standards , but he was the permanent full-forward....Stop making s**t up.

Exept, every time Williams went to the tribunal (like Garry Hocking) he copped it. Where Mitchell gets away with endless amount of crap. Such a sniper and would have to be in the top 3 most disliked players in the comp. Wish Mitchell was around when Roger Merrett was playing. Just ask Pritchard (at the Gabba in 94)

 

[gearjammer85]

This thread should be removed. It focuses more on Haw players current and present than the Carey & Ablett Snr poll. If Big Footy is serious and fair, it should be taken down ASAP.