Bumped Who Is Closer To A Premiership? Lions/Pies? (new posts start at #244)

[Scodog10]

That is BS and you know it. Everything Bucks has done from 2012 to now has been for the future of the club, not living in the now. Our trading out of good players has shown that.

Pendles is 26, same age as Varcoe. I'm not a huge rap for Varcoe but if we think we can win another flag with Pendles, Varcoe has very chance to be playing in our best 22. He's quick, decent skills and can play as a small crumbing forward and kick goals. We don't have that. He can capably fill the 19/22st spot in our team for many years.

How do you know your trade hypothetical wasn't attempted? Given how long the trades took, I'd say we tried dam hard to get pick 23 for H. How many young players do you want in the team? Demons, GWS, Suns like? You need a balance or Pendles will end up ****ed in a few years because of his heavy workload.

As for your last 24 months lack of improvement call, Bucks has been open and honest about it. The club looked where we were at after 2012. They had a crack with the same guys in 2012 from 2010/2011 but that same group were no longer good enough. So after 2012, we decided to trade out some players with decent value for early picks to replenish our youngster crop, which had been neglected in our search for a flag during 2009, 2010 & 2011. Jamie Elliott the exception. We bring in Kennedy, Grundy & Broomhead in 2012. At the end of 2013, there are issues with good players of which are varied. The Leadership group are not unhappy to see these guys move on. We land Freeman and Scharenberg, who unfortunately are unable to show their wares due to injury. We also score a nice diamond in the rough in Tom Langdon. 2014 rolls around and unfortunately a required player, the 1st of his type, asks to leave. We'll get Darcy Moore + add picks 5 (top end talent) & 30 ( should be a decent player) to our list.

So in the past 24 months we've shed some good players, although non have played better at their new homes than they did with us & Beams has a chance to change that, but brought in Taylor Adams with draft picks 18, 19, 20, 6, 10, 5, 9 & 30 within 3 years. You'll notice we've stock piled some impressive youngsters at the cost of immediate results. Did you still expect us to challenge during this time?

On the other hand, we could have topped up after 2012 & kept whatever players we could under the salary cap, (we would have lost someone at some point with so many experienced players wanting their piece of the pie) then topped up again in 2013 & 2014, while risking the 'volcanic' behaviour that was very real through the 2nd half of 2011 and 2012, for an attempt at another flag. A similar line of thinking occured after 1990 and continued until around 1995, with supporters bemoaning how good we were rather then the reality of where we sat now. I'm glad the club didn't repeat history and got on the front foot to change that.

In hindsight, I'd prefer to be where we are now, then on the precipice to begin the inevitable slide like St.Kilda and Bulldogs suffered over the past few years, only to regret not trading guys out when they had higher value. (E.g. Griffen, Dal Santo & Goddard) both clubs would have themselves another 1st round pick for each player.

Thankfully, the club is taking a big picture view and understands the quality talent we have at our disposal but see no need to rush these kids because a few supporters are demanding instant results. Kids, like their results, take time.

With the mood on our board ATM I wouldn't throw that sort of statement out there unless I felt it was justified. I know exactly what the club is doing and I don't like it one bit.

A dip down to the bottom 4-6 would be catastrophic in the eyes of many, but I would accept it if it was on the back of pumping 20 games into Freeman, Broomhead, Kennedy, Langdon and Moore with improvements to ball movement, structure and skill. What we are attempting to do is though is remain finals relevant while at the same time looking long term and we're misreading our list in the process.

We currently have a bottom 6-8 list with far too many depth players and until that core youth establishes itself we need to look beyond quick fix players. If we don't move on Varcoe the money we saved can then be spent towards a gun FA post 2015 every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The premise of the thread is in line with what I'm trying to get across. Brisbane had two choices post 2013 after finishing 10th. 1) bring in guys like Varcoe to supplement the GH5 or 2) reload at the draft and then poach players at the end of the year following. They took their hit down the ladder, but pumped games into kids at the expense of that and found some gems in the process. Give me the hit they took in 2014 with their prospects in 2015 and beyond over bringing in short term players any day of the week...

On the whole let's wait and see. I'm very strong in my stance that we've gone backwards over the last few years. A step back was required and 2014 was Buckley's group which needed to make up the lost ground yet we fell further behind. Until I see improvements in certain areas I have little faith in our current direction because natural improvement will only take you so far.

 

[Baird]

If all the Lions midfielders are fit, on paper, it's now the strongest in the league. I reckon a really good coach could develop a game plan to make them genuine contenders.

A midfield of Rockliff, Hanley, Redden, Aish, Zorko and Taylor (only player missing was Rich) were playing against GWS at the Gabba in round 13.

GWS won by 8 goals. Just about every GWS midfielder got 25+ touches. Even Rhys Palmer.

 

[Hagla]

I think he'll be lucky to see out his contract with us ala Young.

The move we should have made was. 25 & 30 for Greenwood and 36 we then move Lumumba and 36 for 23 & 55 (from Geelong) so Melbourne can pay fair value for Frost and Geelong for Clark (Varcoe for Clark is daylight robbery).

We then go to the draft with 23 and take whoever is available of Garlett, Menadue or Cockatoo who will all, IMO, offer more as outside runners than Varcoe. Unfortunately Buckley is now starting to feel the pressure so chose the safe option...

Why would we take a 6 pick downgrade on pick 30 in the Greenwood trade? 25 for Greenwood is better than 25+30 for Greenwood + 36. No point lining Norths pockets to make another team pay.

 

[Scodog10]

Why would we take a 6 pick downgrade on pick 30 in the Greenwood trade? 25 for Greenwood is better than 25+30 for Greenwood + 36. No point lining Norths pockets to make another team pay.

I thought I explained that. It was in order to get 23 from Melbourne. Lumumba was not worth 23 on his own so we needed to sweeten the pot.

FWIW 25 was under's on Greenwood. His value was late teens ala Wellingham so we did very well out of the trade even if we downgraded 6 picks in the process.

 

[Mateyman]

Elliott is going to be a gun and is pound for pound one of the best contested players in the league, but has nowhere near the line breaking ability of Green.

Young is about to enter his last year on the list plus Marsh and Freeman have 0 games between them.

I love optimism, but you're seriously misplacing it if you're willing to back our group in over theirs...

Edit: I have to add that even though I see Brisbane ahead of us they aren't within a bulls roar of the top 4 let alone a premiership. A club $12 million in debt isn't challenging anytime soon.

I never said our group of line breakers alone was better than them. I said we have some. We are ahead of them because they don't have a single quality KPP.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Who cares who is closer?

Neither team is close, no one has any idea what so ever which club will win a premiership first

I don't understand why people started caring about Brisbane, they are irrelevant.

Hawthorn Premiers 2013.
Hawthorn Premiers 2014.
Hawthorn Premiers 2015.

We were on par with them in 2011, now we don't even deserve to clean their toilets, they left us for dead when Buckley took over.

 

[Hagla]

I thought I explained that. It was in order to get 23 from Melbourne. Lumumba was not worth 23 on his own so we needed to sweeten the pot.

FWIW 25 was under's on Greenwood. His value was late teens ala Wellingham so we did very well out of the trade even if we downgraded 6 picks in the process.

Are you serious? In your scenario half the profit you make from the trade goes straight into Norths pocket. May as well just give Melbourne pick 30 instead if you really think they would have thrown pick 23 back.

 

[SugarCoat]

Can we stop trying to benchmark and be compared with Brisbane?

 

[Mateyman]

With the mood on our board ATM I wouldn't throw that sort of statement out there unless I felt it was justified. I know exactly what the club is doing and I don't like it one bit.

A dip down to the bottom 4-6 would be catastrophic in the eyes of many, but I would accept it if it was on the back of pumping 20 games into Freeman, Broomhead, Kennedy, Langdon and Moore with improvements to ball movement, structure and skill. What we are attempting to do is though is remain finals relevant while at the same time looking long term and we're misreading our list in the process.

We currently have a bottom 6-8 list with far too many depth players and until that core youth establishes itself we need to look beyond quick fix players. If we don't move on Varcoe the money we saved can then be spent towards a gun FA post 2015 every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The premise of the thread is in line with what I'm trying to get across. Brisbane had two choices post 2013 after finishing 10th. 1) bring in guys like Varcoe to supplement the GH5 or 2) reload at the draft and then poach players at the end of the year following. They took their hit down the ladder, but pumped games into kids at the expense of that and found some gems in the process. Give me the hit they took in 2014 with their prospects in 2015 and beyond over bringing in short term players any day of the week...

On the whole let's wait and see. I'm very strong in my stance that we've gone backwards over the last few years. A step back was required and 2014 was Buckley's group which needed to make up the lost ground yet we fell further behind. Until I see improvements in certain areas I have little faith in our current direction because natural improvement will only take you so far.

We weren't even bottom 6 this year with half our team out of half the games.

 

[Scodog10]

I never said our group of line breakers alone was better than them. I said we have some. We are ahead of them because they don't have a single quality KPP.

Yeah our linebreakers are s**t in comparison to there's.

Unfortunately you also need to get the ball to those KPP's and I still like Freeman, McStay and Gardiner more than any of ours coming through aside from Moore. Each to their own I guess.

FWIW I really think people are over complicating my thoughts. I look upon the two clubs like a 10 yo fighting a 12 yo while the 21 yo's in Port, Sydney and Hawthorn look on and laugh at the two whippersnappers going at it.

Unfortunately both clubs are way off the pace, but Brisbane is slightly more advanced. Which is exactly why I find it pretty pathetic that a poster would question my support on the basis of my opinion.

 

[mike123]

Yeah our linebreakers are s**t in comparison to there's.

I agree we need better line breakers for the future. But we have line breakers that have played in premierships.

 

[Scodog10]

Are you serious? In your scenario half the profit you make from the trade goes straight into Norths pocket. May as well just give Melbourne pick 30 instead if you really think they would have thrown pick 23 back.

Yeah go back to my original post the net outcome was:

Out: 25, 30 & Lumumba
In: Greenwood, 23 & 55

You then use 55 & 48 to move up the draft order ala Hawthorn, Adelaide and Geelong with their late pick trades.

It all boils down to your view on Lumumba. I didn't rate him as worthy of a top 50 pick myself and I rated Greenwood higher than 25. We then use 23 on an outsider that no doubt will be better than Varcoe long term.

FWIW I would have been prepared to go 30 & Lumumba for 23. I just don't rate him because durability aside there are too many knocks on his game. Before you even start to look at his off field influence. I also rate Varcoe lower than Lumumba which says it all.

 

[Scodog10]

We weren't even bottom 6 this year with half our team out of half the games.

I'll post you our ladder position post the first bye (a 14 game sample) and we'll see where we sit...

 

[Hagla]

Yeah go back to my original post the net outcome was:

Out: 25, 30 & Lumumba
In: Greenwood, 23 & 55

You then use 55 & 48 to move up the draft order ala Hawthorn, Adelaide and Geelong with their late pick trades.

It all boils down to your view on Lumumba. I didn't rate him as worthy of a top 50 pick myself and I rated Greenwood higher than 25. We then use 23 on an outsider that no doubt will be better than Varcoe long term.

FWIW I would have been prepared to go 30 & Lumumba for 23. I just don't rate him because durability aside there are too many knocks on his game. Before you even start to look at his off field influence. I also rate Varcoe lower than Lumumba which says it all.

Yeah ok, if that's what you think is better than what we got that's up to you. I just wouldn't be giving anything else to North when we know that we could get him for 25 alone. As I said, if you went down that route you would just give Melbourne pick 30 rather than strengthening North just so you could give Melbourne less. Both scenarios would be the same outcome for us. I'd prefer the deal we got than your scenario. Varcoe can play, I look forward to seeing him in our side. Everyone complains about us having no outside run and pace, he can provide that for us.

 

[Hagla]

Yeah our linebreakers are s**t in comparison to there's.

Unfortunately you also need to get the ball to those KPP's and I still like Freeman, McStay and Gardiner more than any of ours coming through aside from Moore. Each to their own I guess.

FWIW I really think people are over complicating my thoughts. I look upon the two clubs like a 10 yo fighting a 12 yo while the 21 yo's in Port, Sydney and Hawthorn look on and laugh at the two whippersnappers going at it.

Unfortunately both clubs are way off the pace, but Brisbane is slightly more advanced. Which is exactly why I find it pretty pathetic that a poster would question my support on the basis of my opinion.

We really need to include our established players in the conversation if we are talking about which team is more advanced. I think anyone (including Brisbane supporters) would take our KPP's any day of the week. Therefore it's Freeman (20), McStay (19), Gardiner (19), Close, Clarke (20), Merrett (29 pushing 30) and Staker (30) Vs Cloke (27), Reid (25), White (26), Brown (25), Keefe (24), Frost (22) and Moore (18?).

 

[danielnajdek]

Brisbane are a million miles away from a Premiership.

We are 990 thousand miles away from a Premiership.

In summary we both aren't even close.

 

[Scodog10]

Mateyman this is how the ladder looks post the first bye:

1. Sydney 12-2 +23%

2. Fremantle 12-2 +16%

3. Geelong 11-4 -12%

4. Hawthorn 11-4 -23%

5. North Melbourne 10-5 +22%

6. Richmond 10-5 +17%

7. Essendon 8-1-5 0% change

8. Adelaide 8-7 +14%

9. West Coast 7-7 -15%

10. Port 7-7 -21%

11. Brisbane 6-8 +11%

12. Collingwood 6-9 -19%

13. GC 5-10 -9%

14. Carlton 4-1-9 +5%

15. GWS 4-10 +1%

16. WB 4-10 -6%

17. Melbourne 2-12 -5%

18. St Kilda 1-13 -7%

The teams in bold lost their coach and the clubs in italics are those we beat post the bye.

In summation across the last two thirds of the season we outperformed 6 teams, managed 4 of our 6 wins against 4 of the 5 worst performed teams in that period, we couldn't beat a team that was in the top 8 best performed for the period, had the league’s worst % differential and Brisbane outperformed us in that period.

We then lost two of our top 5 players from our B&F and one of them to Brisbane to boot. We have had the worst injury profile of all clubs league wide over the past 3 seasons, were in the bottom couple of clubs skill wise throughout 2014 and have little in the way of a defining gameplan yet we’re closer to a premiership than Brisbane?

I’m sorry, but as much as I want it to be truth I’m really not seeing it…

 

[Scodog10]

We really need to include our established players in the conversation if we are talking about which team is more advanced. I think anyone (including Brisbane supporters) would take our KPP's any day of the week. Therefore it's Freeman (20), McStay (19), Gardiner (19), Close, Clarke (20), Merrett (29 pushing 30) and Staker (30) Vs Cloke (27), Reid (25), White (26), Brown (25), Keefe (24), Frost (22) and Moore (18?).

I'd take our KPP stocks at this very minute, but I'd choose Brisbane's long term which I imagine is what we're referring to with this discussion considering neither team is challenging for a flag in the next 3 years?

 

[Kappa]

Things can change Quickly. Just look at Port

And some things don't change quickly, just look at the Bulldogs Melbourne Brisbane Geelong Hawthorn Richmond ect

 

[Hagla]

I'd take our KPP stocks at this very minute, but I'd choose Brisbane's long term which I imagine is what we're referring to with this discussion considering neither team is challenging for a flag in the next 3 years?

We have a nice spread of ages which will be more beneficial in the long term than having two guys who are about to retire and five kids. Brisbane have butchered their KPP recruiting and their kids will have little to no support while developing. No team wants to have an age bracket like theirs in development, all could still fail and they have nothing in reserve. Our spread gives us a greater chance to keep the pick of the bunch while they need all theirs to come through.

 

[Wooljay]

Hawthorn Premiers 2013.
Hawthorn Premiers 2014.
Hawthorn Premiers 2015.

We were on par with them in 2011, now we don't even deserve to clean their toilets, they left us for dead when Buckley took over.

Barely got over the top of them in 2011 and got pumped by them in 2012 when very little had changed. They're just a better side, and have been for a while.

Has absolutely nothing to do with Buckley. Doesn't matter who is coaching us, they're a better side for good reason.

 

[rose jam]

Hawthorn Premiers 2013.
Hawthorn Premiers 2014.
Hawthorn Premiers 2015.

We were on par with them in 2011, now we don't even deserve to clean their toilets, they left us for dead when Buckley took over.

That's a very simplistic view. Hawks were putting their team together that year, ours was ageing.

Plus you can't past the fact that free agency hit precisely at the time Hawks needed a few players to round off their list. And the way free agency works is that players only want to go to the clubs that will compete. It was just beautiful timing for them. If free agency had been in play 2 years earlier I think the shift wouldn't have been like that. Now as long as free agency is in play you can keep refreshing your list as the top team every year. It's crazy.

 

[rose jam]

Mateyman
We then lost two of our top 5 players from our B&F and one of them to Brisbane to boot. We have had the worst injury profile of all clubs league wide over the past 3 seasons, were in the bottom couple of clubs skill wise throughout 2014 and have little in the way of a defining gameplan yet we’re closer to a premiership than Brisbane?
…

This is a silly statement

 

[Black_White]

Hawthorn Premiers 2013.
Hawthorn Premiers 2014.
Hawthorn Premiers 2015.

We were on par with them in 2011, now we don't even deserve to clean their toilets, they left us for dead when Buckley took over.

I bow before the truth.

 

[LeppaMessiah]

That's what everyone's missing lot of posters on here bagging bucks ,but I will stick my neck out and say he is ten times the coach leppo is and will ever be .Only have to look on Twitter to realise how juvenile he is.their a bunch of cowboys up there and need a disciplined head coach like a Mcarthy instead they appointed a bigger flog than most of their players .This is gonna end in tears for them big time.


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