Traded McEvoy to the Hawks, Savage and 1st Round pick to St Kilda

[Swansujelly]

Great trade for the hawks. Almost Sydney like...

 

[cdcanman]

I rate Shiels as a run with tag pretty highly - but your looking for a heath shaw type i take it?
too bad he's such a dickhead....!

Agreed on Shaw. But to continue with your Collingwood analogy, I'm more looking for an Alan Toovey type. Steven Morris at Richmond. Nick Smith at Sydney. Corey Enright is probably the cream of the crop. The guy who goes to the oppositions best small forward. We have plenty of running, creative halfbacks like Shaw. With Goo gone, we don't have one that is super-disciplined, defends first.

 

[HomerJayS]

Where is Duryea and Suckling?

Rioli too.

 

[thegilbo]

Rioli too.

updated in its own thread

 

[ManOfClay]

Stanley and Hickey as a ruck combination actually looks very good.

It really doesn't.

 

[grimlock]

It really doesn't.

They would form a cool portmanteau though - "Stickey"

 

[ManOfClay]

They would form a cool portmanteau though - "Stickey"

That's about where their usefulness ends. St Kilda have just made their already average ruck brigade even worse. Stanley wouldn't even be getting a game in a good side. He can run fast but has next to nothing else going for him.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

That's about where their usefulness ends. St Kilda have just made their already average ruck brigade even worse. Stanley wouldn't even be getting a game in a good side. He can run fast but has next to nothing else going for him.

Err. Most consider him a much better tap ruckman than McEvoy.

He's only 23, hasn't been able to put together one season without injuries. Barely struck 10 games in a row together. Played in several different positions, in several different roles under 2 very different coaches.

Give him a season to settle down playing the role he should be - 2nd ruck and resting forward. I think he'll prove to have a little more than 'next to nothing apart from his pace'.

 

[Tragic sainter]

Err. Most consider him a much better tap ruckman than McEvoy.

He's only 23, hasn't been able to put together one season without injuries. Barely struck 10 games in a row together. Played in several different positions, in several different roles under 2 very different coaches.

Give him a season to settle down playing the role he should be - 2nd ruck and resting forward. I think he'll prove to have a little more than 'next to nothing apart from his pace'.

Take no notice of manofclay he's still offended over 2009.

 

[Periphery]

Despite having only played 9 games over 2 injury interrupted seasons Stanley played the first 7 of the 2012 season. He was playing in a Forward/#2 Ruck role for the first 6 games and in the 7th he was #1 ruck due to McEvoy being injured.

This is what he did:

Avg SC points: 74.5
Avg Pos: 11.2
Avg HO: 8.5
Avg Goals: 1.2 (also kicked 7 behinds)
Avg Tackles: 3

Clearly he is useless.

 

[ManOfClay]

Err. Most consider him a much better tap ruckman than McEvoy.

Yet McEvoy has always been number one ruck... interesting.

 

[Periphery]

Showing some promosing signs, but still doesnt have much trade value YET.

I agree. I wasn't pointing that out because I want to trade him, but to counter the "Stanley is s**t" brigade.

 

[ManOfClay]

I agree. I wasn't pointing that out because I want to trade him, but to counter the "Stanley is s**t" brigade.

He's not s**t but he's a long way off being a good afl footballer. As a forward most would probably rather Liam Jones, yet most would say Jones is s**t at the same time.

In reality neither are s**t, but you don't see me trumpeting Jones as a good afl footballer at this stage, or Jones/Campbell as a good key forward pairing. The finger suggested Stanley/Hickey is a very good ruck division, which is an outrageous call.

 

[Davo-27]

I agree. I wasn't pointing that out because I want to trade him, but to counter the "Stanley is s**t" brigade.

they are really bad stats, I think maybe you counter argued yourself.....

 

[Periphery]

they are really bad stats, I think maybe you counter argued yourself.....

Did you miss the part where he is 200cm and playing his 10 game after being horribly injury prone for the previous 2 seasons? Clearly we should be expecting him to be dominating games by that stage in his career.

He's not s**t but he's a long way off being a good afl footballer. As a forward most would probably rather Liam Jones, yet most would say Jones is s**t at the same time.

In reality neither are s**t, but you don't see me trumpeting Jones as a good afl footballer at this stage, or Jones/Campbell as a good key forward pairing. The finger suggested Stanley/Hickey is a very good ruck division, which is an outrageous call.

I'm not saying he is going to be amazing, just that he has potential. He may never live up to that potential, but at this stage of the rebuild potential is all the Saints have to go on at the moment. The best thing that could happen for Stanley is to have a full, injury free year as a Forward/#2 ruck because then we will finally see what he can do.

 

[ManOfClay]

Did you miss the part where he is 200cm and playing his 10 game after being horribly injury prone for the previous 2 seasons? Clearly we should be expecting him to be dominating games by that stage in his career.

Ayce Cordy is 200cms and is injury prone too. Taken in the same draft. Does that make Ayce any less disappointing?

I'm not saying he is going to be amazing, just that he has potential. He may never live up to that potential, but at this stage of the rebuild potential is all the Saints have to go on at the moment. The best thing that could happen for Stanley is to have a full, injury free year as a Forward/#2 ruck because then we will finally see what he can do.

Even in the games he has played he hasn't shown any amazing glimpse that he'll be good. I think he's a bust that St Kilda have no choice to persist with as they have noone else.

 

[ManOfClay]

Cordy and Stanley is a decent comparison to be honest. Cordy averages more hitouts, goals, tackles and takes twice as many contested marks. Stanley gets the ball two more times a game on average and averages two more marks per game (although contested mark stats suggest Stanley benefits from playing behind the ball)
Now who here things Cordy is a good AFL footballer? Not me.

 

[master bate]

Cordy and Stanley is a decent comparison to be honest. Cordy averages more hitouts, goals, tackles and takes twice as many contested marks. Stanley gets the ball two more times a game on average and averages two more marks per game (although contested mark stats suggest Stanley benefits from playing behind the ball)
Now who here things Cordy is a good AFL footballer? Not me.

Stats for guys in these positions with this many games and ages are largely irrelevant. You're comparing rubbish with rubbish. It's like all those who showed that Watts was tracking as well as a key forward as Jono Brown in the early days and tried to tell me he'd make it as a key forward.

The saints supporters might say Hickey and Stanley are a good combination and you are technically correct to say it's not but it's also a combination with a raft of potential and that's what you really want at the saints stage.

Hickey has shown enough at 22 with limited games for a ruck. Take Lobbe from Port who's 24 now. Hickey could be there in 24 months. In a side rebuilding a veteran for support a talented youngster and allowing them to split the 24 games of AFL each year based on form and fitness sounds like a reasonable ploy. Your dogs have Minson, they may as well use him for a couple more years and then maybe look to do the same.

Stanley has shown little production. But he's a great prospect because he has the mobility to link up around the ground when in the ruck, to play as the third tall forward and allow you 2 genuine key targets (compared to Tom Campbell who you can't really play alongside 2 big forwards hence bringing in Crameri as the perfect 3rd banana). I dont understand why you are so angry about a saints fan liking the idea of him. I wouldn't begrudge a bulldog saying Minson and Campbell is a nice pairing. Port Adelaide's desire to go after Stanley shows at least someone else agrees he has a promising future especially when he's got a set position and duties.

 

[Periphery]

Cordy and Stanley is a decent comparison to be honest. Cordy averages more hitouts, goals, tackles and takes twice as many contested marks. Stanley gets the ball two more times a game on average and averages two more marks per game (although contested mark stats suggest Stanley benefits from playing behind the ball)
Now who here things Cordy is a good AFL footballer? Not me.

You are clearly including stats from this year to get those averages. He was played horribly out of position in defense for nearly all his games this year because we had no one else that could do the job. Including those stats in a discussion about his potential and a ruck forward is stupid.

I only used stats from the first 7 games of 2012 because that is the last time he was consistently played as a forward/ruck.

Here are Stanleys stats again. (rounds 1-7 2012)
Avg SC points: 74.5
Avg Pos: 11.2
Avg HO: 8.5
Avg Goals: 1.2 (also kicked 7 behinds)
Avg Tackles: 3

Cordy career stats (19 games total):
Avg SC points: 44.5
Avg Pos: 8
Avg HO: 2.6
Avg Goals: .7
Avg Tackles: 2.3

I don't know anything about Cordy but if he has been playing a forward/ruck role in all his games then his stats would seem to indicate that he has clearly shown less than Stanley has. Either way there isn't enough games here to really decide who sucks or not. We need more info for that.

I'm not saying Stanley will be great, he very well might be a bust, but until we see him consistently play forward/ruck we will not know. Trading McEvoy will let us see if he has the stuff to become a dangerous forward/ruck option.

I think this trade was a win/win for all involved. McEvoy will benefit from being at the Hawks and they will benefit from having him. The Saints will benefit from the potential that Savage and pick 17 bring and also from the change in structure that will allow Stanley to play in a position that he is best suited to. And besides it isn't like our ruck work was great with McEvoy so having a year or 2 of it sucking slightly more while Hickey learns the trade is not going to hurt our ladder position. Pick number 1 in the 2014 draft here we come!

 

[Aed0s]

At first I thought the Saints were crazy off-loading McEvoy, presumably their number 1 ruckman so it was difficult for me to understand why exactly St Kilda decided to trade him. Everyone knew that Hawthorn required a new ruckman after the retirement of Max Bailey but I would not had thought that St Kilda would opt to trade him off. After reading some other comments about McEvoy's weakness as a tap ruckman and comments coming from St Kilda supporters themselves coming out with their frustrations over the ruckman my thoughts on this move is becoming more succinct and more balanced as I know more about his apparent weaknesses and disadvantages. St Kilda must have a lot of faith in Hickey to take McEvoy's place, but I have also heard rumours circling around regarding a possible pick-up of one of Jolly and Longer but I really don't know how credible and truthful these rumours are.

As for Savage, I knew him at the junior level and he always had that long, powerful and penetrating drop punt so in terms of kicking efficiency I think he's right up there. He used to kick 4,5,6-8 goals per game playing forward but also playing in the midfield as well. He seems to have found it hard to push into the Hawthorn team as a permanent small-mid sized half-forward/forward pocket/winger having to fight for weekly spots against the likes of Riolo, Puopolo, B. Hill etc... I think at St Kilda he'll most likely have a permanent spot in the team as St Kilda moderately lack the sort of depth which Savage brings to the table. I had often viewed him as an opportunist. He always knew how to get into the right places at the right time but having that sense, especially in the forward line and crumbing at stoppages is what is required in today's game and with it he can really give St Kilda the boost they lack.

As for McEvoy departing, I have some doubt as to whether St Kilda are going to finish any higher on the ladder without a decent ruckman and strong target to kick to coming out to defence or around the ground in general.

If I was a Hawthorn supporter I'd be extremely happy with this trade. A perfect, ready made ruckman was exactly what Hawthorn needed and they scooped a beauty at a bargain price. Hawthorn won't be losing any sleep off-loading Savage and their first draft pick (pick 17).

 

[ManOfClay]

I only used stats from the first 7 games of 2012 because that is the last time he was consistently played as a forward/ruck.

Here are Stanleys stats again. (rounds 1-7 2012)
Avg SC points: 74.5
Avg Pos: 11.2
Avg HO: 8.5
Avg Goals: 1.2 (also kicked 7 behinds)
Avg Tackles: 3

All I'm reading there is you making excuses from Stanley's 2013 and then picking an arbitrary stretch of games where he played almost ok.

My point is neither are an adequate 2nd ruck/forward. The fact Stanley and others are regular performers in St Kilda's side is a reason why the saints finished in the bottom four. Like us when Cordy was playing. When Campbell came in at the end of the year we improved greatly from having a more competent second ruck/forward. We still finished bottom four but we were three games and percentage ahead of Saints thanks largely to that back stretch of the year.

There will be a lot of short and medium term pain for St Kilda as guys like Riewoldt, Fisher, Dal Santo leave while most of your side, including your weaker ruck division, is still maturing. Long term you can only hope.

 

[ManOfClay]

Stanley has shown little production. But he's a great prospect because he has the mobility to link up around the ground when in the ruck, to play as the third tall forward and allow you 2 genuine key targets (compared to Tom Campbell who you can't really play alongside 2 big forwards hence bringing in Crameri as the perfect 3rd banana). I dont understand why you are so angry about a saints fan liking the idea of him. I wouldn't begrudge a bulldog saying Minson and Campbell is a nice pairing. Port Adelaide's desire to go after Stanley shows at least someone else agrees he has a promising future especially when he's got a set position and duties.

Exactly why we are getting Crameri. Jones #1 forward, Campbell for now 2nd forward changing into ruck, Crammers third. While it's not a great forwardline, Jones and Campbell both had games this year where they kicked four goals or more (Jones did it twice) and Crameri is quite competent.

I'm not angry, but it's not correct to say at the moment Stanley/Hickey is a good combination.

Port's desire might have something to do with the fact they have one ruck (Lobbe), Redden is injury prone and their forwardline post-Schulz needs some height, especially if Butcher never comes on.

 

[Verdun]

Exactly why we are getting Crameri. Jones #1 forward, Campbell for now 2nd forward changing into ruck, Crammers third. While it's not a great forwardline, Jones and Campbell both had games this year where they kicked four goals or more (Jones did it twice) and Crameri is quite competent.

I'm not angry, but it's not correct to say at the moment Stanley/Hickey is a good combination.

Port's desire might have something to do with the fact they have one ruck (Lobbe), Redden is injury prone and their forwardline post-Schulz needs some height, especially if Butcher never comes on.

Lets put this in perspective - the Saints need good draft picks as they have gone through years of not investing in their list. This is what it is an investment in their list - 3 picks in the top 20.

Think this is a good trade for both clubs. Bottom line is the Saints need picks

Do not believe we now have a great ruck combination but there is potential there. We will get a back up ruck man at some stage through this draft trade period along with some high picks that will hopefully add class to the midfield.

The Dogs have drafted well over the last couple of years - kudos to them; they now need to cash that in. The Saints have gaps that need fixing - if we were drafting for short term fixes there would be deserved critisism but we are investing in the list.

You can not look at the picks / trades in isolation; I am happy with the way this trade / draft period is playing out - early days. We will not know until the draft trade plays out

 

[ManOfClay]

Yeah that's fair enough

 

[Verdun]

cheers