Non-Lions discussion 2022

[Hollow Knight]

You need to separate a person's privately held beliefs, which they apply to themselves (good), compared to when a person imposes their beliefs on others and make them live by their beliefs (bad).

But this is all based on the premise that he was let go for his personal beliefs, which I, and I think many others would object to.

If he was just a parishioner at this church, he would have been fine and he would have been able to play the "I don't agree with every single view of the church" card.

But he is Chair of this church, and therefore he is tacitly responsible for everything the church does and says.

 

[Hollow Knight]

That's a long-winded way of saying that he was dismissed due to affiliation with a religious organisation.

"Implicitly endorsing values incompatible with those of Essendon". You are literally arguing guilt by association.

Not affiliation. Leadership and responsibility.

And I'm not arguing "guilt" at all. He hasn't been charged with a crime.

 

[notting18]

That's a long-winded way of saying that he was dismissed due to affiliation with a religious organisation.

"Implicitly endorsing values incompatible with those of Essendon". You are literally arguing guilt by association.

Affiliation/Association is very different to "leading"

 

[martinson]

I won't go into details, however I went to a leadership forum in Canberra when I was at university and it became quite apparent the whole thing was run by Hillsong.

Plenty of Liberal and Labor politicians were heavily involved with the church.

I was personally involved in a breakout group run by a band who have since become very successful and another who's father was a high ranking QANTAS executive.

Lovely people, however it became obvious quite quickly that the forum was facilitated by some very powerful/connected people most of which were aligned with Hillsong.

I'm not disputing your perspective but in reality that could be a very small proportion of people in Canberra and corporate Aus.

 

[McIvor]

The world has gone absolutely mad

 

[Full Wingspan]

Essendon's actions aren't in line with Essendon's core values.

What part of a community rejects a view is irrelevant to a person's right to hold them. It's imperative that everyone is entitled to their beliefs and freedoms.

"An individual's right to hold views that oppress others". You have not justified this even slightly. No one is arguing that the church should have the right to oppress others.

You need to separate a person's privately held beliefs, which they apply to themselves (good), compared to when a person imposes their beliefs on others and make them live by their beliefs (bad).

We all need to respect and be tolerant of people who disagree with us.

Can you imagine a gay person respecting and tolerating another person's view that gay people should not be respected and tolerated?

 

[Cubs2Lions]

The world has gone absolutely mad

 

[Hollow Knight]

Can you imagine a gay person respecting and tolerating another person's view that gay people should not be respected and tolerated?

 

[martinson]

The world has gone absolutely mad

I just shakes my head at what riles people up.

When we see a legit crisis in this country where the country itself is actually threatened, which inevitably in historical terms a country with our vastness and unequalled natural resources will be , I don't think we'll have much hope.

 

[Hollow Knight]

When we see a legit crisis in this country where the country itself is actually threatened, which inevitably in historical terms a country with our vastness and unequalled natural resources will be , I don't think we'll have much hope.

There are people in this country who are threatened every day, through racism, homophobia, sexism, domestic and sexual violence, poverty... You'd have to forgive my cynicism at implicitly reading the bolded bit as "when we see a crisis where all straight, white middle-class people are threatened".

I know that wasn't your intention, but heck I hate it when people write off the ongoing mistreatment and marginalisation of minority groups over decades and even centuries as "not a real crisis".

 

[spotthedog1]

Can you imagine a gay person respecting and tolerating another person's view that gay people should not be respected and tolerated?

And again. No one, anywhere in this scenario, has said that gay people should not be respected nor tolerated.

Tolerance means accepting those who disagree with you. It's not tolerance to accept those you agree with

 

[Hollow Knight]

I wonder if an openly gay man would be able to hold the position of Chair of the City on the Hill church.

 

[McIvor]

I just shakes my head at what riles people up.

When we see a legit crisis in this country where the country itself is actually threatened, which inevitably in historical terms a country with our vastness and unequalled natural resources will be , I don't think we'll have much hope.

People are just getting so outraged for outrage sake. I mean, the amount of leaders and people in senior management have all sorts of crazy views yet most employees have the faintest and work at organisations anyway and I suspect even if they knew of some of the beliefs would continue working there.

And now we have Fagan who may have been culturally insensitive at one point of his life which he was probably the same to ALL players, yet now he is a raging racist and admonished from the game.

I don't know the Essendon CEO from a bar of soap or what process he went through to get the job in the first place but to me it reeks of cancel culture claiming its next victim - even better that its a white middle aged man.

I'm honestly not sure where it ends anymore.

 

[spotthedog1]

But this is all based on the premise that he was let go for his personal beliefs, which I, and I think many others would object to.

If he was just a parishioner at this church, he would have been fine and he would have been able to play the "I don't agree with every single view of the church" card.

But he is Chair of this church, and therefore he is tacitly responsible for everything the church does and says.

Disagree. Especially since he became chair in 2020, and they're holding him accountable for comments made in a sermon (unclear by) from 2013.

Even if not, still disagree.

 

[spotthedog1]

I wonder if an openly gay man would be able to hold the position of Chair of the City on the Hill church.

I wonder if a Muslim or Christian would be able to hold the position of chair of the Australian Greens.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Disagree. Especially since he became chair in 2020, and they're holding him accountable for comments made in a sermon (unclear by) from 2013.

Even if not, still disagree.

I tolerate your disagreement.

 

[Full Wingspan]

I'm not disputing your perspective but in reality that could be a very small proportion of people in Canberra and corporate Aus.

I've come across numerous examples of senior management in government and government owned entities being similarly overrepresented by Hillsong patrons.

Even during my time in the workforce, I have seen religious ties run deep among partnership in law and accounting firms.

The notion that being religious is a career killer is absurd in my view. I've also seen strong athiest bosses work productively with bible bashing employees whilst simultaneously acknowledging that they both vastly differ in their religious and spiritual beliefs.

I was educated in Christian schools and am thankful that they did not impose a radical view or were biblical fundamentalists. They endorsed a much more modern and sensible view of Christianity and encouraged students to engage in moral and ethical dilemmas. I'm not religious but I'm thankful for this education and how it shaped me.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I wonder if a Muslim or Christian would be able to hold the position of chair of the Australian Greens.

Really not sure?

But I'm not questioning the hiring values of that particular church. I am just wondering in which circumstances organisations are allowed to preclude people from working for them on account of their personal lives/values.

Is it only organisations with a Cross, Star of David, Crescent and Star etc... on their edifice?

 

[western royboy]

I wonder if an openly gay man would be able to hold the position of Chair of the City on the Hill church.

 

[JasRulz63]

I wonder if a Muslim or Christian would be able to hold the position of chair of the Australian Greens.

Isn't the deputy leader of the Greens Muslim?

 

[Hollow Knight]

I don't know the Essendon CEO from a bar of soap or what process he went through to get the job in the first place...

As an aside, you should look into that. It's pretty funny actually. One of the most Essendon things I've ever seen.

 

[martinson]

There are people in this country who are threatened every day, through racism, homophobia, sexism, domestic and sexual violence, poverty... You'd have to forgive my cynicism at implicitly reading the bolded bit as "when we see a crisis where all straight, white-middle class people are threatened".

I know that wasn't your intention, but * I hate it when people write off the ongoing mistreatment and marginalisation of minority groups over decades and even centuries as "not a real crisis".

This isn't just Aus. This is every Western democracy. The issues you cover there are endemic. Domestic violence is more prevalent now on a per capita basis than it's ever been just on the number of cases litigated. Been to San Francisco lately ? Poverty is rife. Plenty of white middle class people I know are desperately unhappy ,on anti depressants, kids on drugs whatever else.

I don't believe I write anything off. All of the above is a given.

The bigger picture and what might happen as the US empire crumbles ,which it's in the process of doing , 90 years since the Great Depression , 80 years of world dominance and now the inevitable decay over the next 30 years, it's flashing amber for everyone in this country. Privileged or marginalised.

But I won't be around to see it. You might.

 

[Full Wingspan]

And again. No one, anywhere in this scenario, has said that gay people should not be respected nor tolerated.

Tolerance means accepting those who disagree with you. It's not tolerance to accept those you agree with

The church has espoused a view that gay marriage is a sin and should not be allowed. Old mate has stated that he supports people's right to hold that view.

To tolerate means to "allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) without interference."

A view of "same sex marriage should not be allowed" is not tolerance by definition as it inherently seeks to interfere with gay people's right to marry.

Being the leader of the church that esposes that view, and not condemning it (but instead supporting his congregation's right to hold it) falls short of the values that most non-religious organisations hold and the standards they expect from their leaders when embodying those values.

By leading the church, old mate says its okay to not tolerate gay marriage and by extension, gay people and their rights. That's not good enough.

 

[martinson]

I've come across numerous examples of senior management in government and government owned entities being similarly overrepresented by Hillsong patrons.

Even during my time in the workforce, I have seen religious ties run deep among partnership in law and accounting firms.

The notion that being religious is a career killer is absurd in my view. I've also seen strong athiest bosses work productively with bible bashing employees whilst simultaneously acknowledging that they both vastly differ in their religious and spiritual beliefs.

I was educated in Christian schools and am thankful that they did not impose a radical view or were biblical fundamentalists. They endorsed a much more modern and sensible view of Christianity and encouraged students to engage in moral and ethical dilemmas. I'm not religious but I'm thankful for this education and how it shaped me.

I'm happy to be educated but I know a lot of people in corporate law firms and corporate accountants and no one to my knowledge associated with Hillsong . Not too many religious types either.

My kids are employed in those areas and never mentioned a word about it. I see their friends from time to time. If anyone was with Hillsong they'd regard them as a bit nutty.

Still maybe I'm right out of touch.

 

[Full Wingspan]

As an aside, you should look into that. It's pretty funny actually. One of the most Essendon things I've ever seen.

Part of me thinks the AFL has some part in this given Scott's appointment and NAB's relationship with Gill and the league.