Discussion Round 1 Best 22

[walshystkfc]

Honestly at this stage he's a starting 21 for me, guys like Wright would go sub ahead of him. He's at the stage now where he's a real player that can accumulate 20+ possies most game and provide valuable service of half back, the wing or in the midfield, he's developed so much in 47 games and I think would counter all of the work we've done to make him a sub, I think he's really cemented himself.

Dont disagree! Just trying to find the right balance

 

[St Kilda Death]

Id be surprised after last year and reports from this preseason if newnes wasn't starting wing.
IMO only way hes not on the wing is if they put him in the guts.

 

[Kilroy]

B: Jimmy Webster, Luke Delaney, Sean Dempster
HB: Jarryn Geary, Sam Fisher, Shane Savage
C: Jack Newnes, David Armitage, Farren Ray
HF: Leigh Montagna, Nick Riewoldt, Jack Billings
F: Ahmed Saad, Spencer White, Tim Membrey,
R: Tom Hickey, Luke Dunstan, Jack Steven
I/C: Seb Ross, Josh Bruce, Mav Weller, Eli Templeton
Emerg: Billy Longer, Sam Gilbert, Nathan Wright

 

[Periphery]

I'm no longer his advocate but I think Wright is fairly underrated. He played round 1 last year and came back into the team after (I think) 1 game with Sandy. I can see the club being pretty eager to get some serious game time into him this year.

Ross probably falls into the same bracket, but has been kept out of the team for different reasons.

 

[hayes]

^^No doubt.

 

[Persevering Saint]

B: Jimmy Webster, Luke Delaney, Sean Dempster
HB: Jarryn Geary, Sam Fisher, Shane Savage
C: Jack Newnes, David Armitage, Farren Ray
HF: Leigh Montagna, Nick Riewoldt, Jack Billings
F: Ahmed Saad, Spencer White, Tim Membrey,
R: Tom Hickey, Luke Dunstan, Jack Steven
I/C: Seb Ross, Josh Bruce, Mav Weller, Eli Templeton
Emerg: Billy Longer, Sam Gilbert, Nathan Wright

Yeah, I'm not seeing a tall on the bench. If Bruce is playing, it's instead of White in your team.

I'm noting that the backline is pretty settled in most of our teams: Some combination of Geary, Fisher, Savage, Dempster, Delaney, with Webster or Gilbert usually being the only question. Similarly, the midfield is rather settled: Joey, Jack and Armo, Dunstan, Weller, with then some combination of Ray, Ross, Newnes, etc. The forward line seems the place with the most flux.

 

[Kilroy]

Yeah, I'm not seeing a tall on the bench. If Bruce is playing, it's instead of White in your team.

I'm noting that the backline is pretty settled in most of our teams: Some combination of Geary, Fisher, Savage, Dempster, Delaney, with Webster or Gilbert usually being the only question. Similarly, the midfield is rather settled: Joey, Jack and Armo, Dunstan, Weller, with then some combination of Ray, Ross, Newnes, etc. The forward line seems the place with the most flux.

Wouldn't be the first or last time a team has gone in with one ruckman, but Bruce is 197 (which in my book means tall) and either he or White could take a few hit-outs if needed.
Bruce gets the spot on versatility as a swingman. If he goes back or forward he could release a Geary or a Montagna into the middle. If a tall gets subbed Bruce can cover for them. If he's pinch-hitting at least he can play defensively on an opposition ruck (which White couldn't).
A bigger question for me is whether Saad would get a gig over Templeton, especially as he'd need to be elevated first. Unfortunately long-term injuries are far too common, but I wouldn't want to mozz anyone.
Is there any way Saad could become a nominated rookie without a long-term injury, for example by using the veteran's list?
Just think Eli will be eased back in given he may need to get some confidence back in his broken arm. Same with Tom Lee and his shoulders and Sam Gilbert and his foot.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Wouldn't be the first or last time a team has gone in with one ruckman, but Bruce is 197 (which in my book means tall) and either he or White could take a few hit-outs if needed.
Bruce gets the spot on versatility as a swingman. If he goes back or forward he could release a Geary or a Montagna into the middle. If a tall gets subbed Bruce can cover for them. If he's pinch-hitting at least he can play defensively on an opposition ruck (which White couldn't).
A bigger question for me is whether Saad would get a gig over Templeton, especially as he'd need to be elevated first. Unfortunately long-term injuries are far too common, but I wouldn't want to mozz anyone.
Is there any way Saad could become a nominated rookie without a long-term injury, for example by using the veteran's list?
Just think Eli will be eased back in given he may need to get some confidence back in his broken arm. Same with Tom Lee and his shoulders and Sam Gilbert and his foot.

Saad won't get elevated as a nominated rookie, but given that Siposs is out until the middle of the year, there's an LTI spot available.

But yeah, the forward line is the place that is most up-for-grabs. With the exception of Riewoldt and Billings, there's all kinds of little battles going on: Eli vs Ahmed with Schneids a smokey, Membrey vs Lee, White vs Bruce vs possibly Lee, whether Longer comes in and we have both Hickey and Longer as a ruck/forward combo (or even Pierce vs Longer).

The forward line is the most unsettled part of the ground.

 

[Persevering Saint]

The midfield is settled, but has quite a bit of depth. If we say we have the starting six, plus three on the bench, that's only nine players (although there'll be some like Eli in the forward line and Savage in the backline who'll drift there) . These are the players for those spots, in my estimated order of strength of spot:

1. Montagna
2. Steven
3. Armitage
4. Dunstan
5. Newnes
6. Weller
   
7. Ray
8. Ross
   
9. Acres
10. Curren
11. Saunders
12. McKenzie
    
13. Shenton
14. Markworth (although more likely to start in the forward line)
15. Murdoch (who knows where he plays his best footy though!)
16. Minchington (again, more a forward, but hey).
17. Sinclair

Now, we may argue about the order of the players from about 9-17 on this list, but my point is that there are about 17 players competing for a place in the midfield, with only about 6 of them being pretty much locked in stone. That's a pretty interesting place to be. Good depth, amid a strongly defined starting 6 or 7 in that midfield group.

 

[Defacto]

I'm no longer his advocate but I think Wright is fairly underrated. He played round 1 last year and came back into the team after (I think) 1 game with Sandy. I can see the club being pretty eager to get some serious game time into him this year.

Ross probably falls into the same bracket, but has been kept out of the team for different reasons.

great post. wright is one who has a tank as well, something we missed. i'm with ya, doesnt get enough love

 

[hayes]

I definitely think like Billings, Dunstan, Eli etc Wright fits into that young guys "if they're fit, they're playing" group.

 

[Persevering Saint]

I definitely think like Billings, Dunstan, Eli etc Wright fits into that young guys "if they're fit, they're playing" group.

Billings and Dunstan are locks. Eli and Wright are just an issue of who you leave out for them in their respective spots.

Essentially, there's four players playing for the two spots in the back flanks: Savage, Webster, Gilbert, Wright, probably (imo) in that order. I could also chuck in Roberton, or even the Panther, too.

For the small forward role, there's probably two spots, with one of them expected to go into the midfield. Billings gets one, then there's probably Templeton as the most likely. But then the Saad factor comes in. There's also Minchington, although he'd be pretty unlikely at this stage. But then there's another mid like Saunders or Curren, both of whom have said that's their expected role at the moment (which I'm not ecstatic about, because they're both natural mids, but hey). Then there's of course Schneids as well. Throw in Lonie, and it's a very packed spot. For mine, I think it's really a battle between Temps and Saad for the second small forward spot right now.

 

[Persevering Saint]

The more I think about it, the more Murdoch is the big enigma. He COULD be another player in that backline group with Savage, Webster, etc. He COULD be another one of the players fighting for a midfield spot. He COULD be a medium tall who floats onto the wing, and is thus competing with Membrey, Markworth, or to a lesser extent Lee. His versatility puts him on the cusp of each of those roles, but precisely because he's so versatile, he doesn't seem to rise to the top of any of those role-lists.

The question is, will his versatility across the ground mean the coaches just pick him anyway?

 

[Defacto]

Billings and Dunstan are locks. Eli and Wright are just an issue of who you leave out for them in their respective spots.

Essentially, there's four players playing for the two spots in the back flanks: Savage, Webster, Gilbert, Wright, probably (imo) in that order.

For the small forward role, there's probably two spots, with one of them expected to go into the midfield. Billings gets one, then there's probably Templeton as the most likely. But then the Saad factor comes in. There's also Minchington, although he'd be pretty unlikely at this stage. But then there's another mid like Saunders or Curren, both of whom have said that's their expected role at the moment (which I'm not ecstatic about, because they're both natural mids, but hey). Then there's of course Schneids as well. Throw in Lonie, and it's a very packed spot. For mine, I think it's really a battle between Temps and Saad for the second small forward spot right now.

i might be on my own here but i wouldnt be putting billings down as a lock. he looked absolutely buggered in the 2nd half and by our coaches own admission was probably played more than he should have been. dont get me wrong i love billings and think he will be a great player. he's one where the VFL is definitely below him, but its his fitness that will keep him out IMO

eli is ahead of billings by a fairly decent margin also IMO as i think eli has the tank now to run through the midfield where as billings showed no indications last year that he is capable of playing anywhere other than off the bench/out of the pocket with minimal game time

 

[Persevering Saint]

i might be on my own here but i wouldnt be putting billings down as a lock. he looked absolutely buggered in the 2nd half and by our coaches own admission was probably played more than he should have been. dont get me wrong i love billings and think he will be a great player. he's one where the VFL is definitely below him, but its his fitness that will keep him out IMO

eli is ahead of billings by a fairly decent margin also IMO as i think eli has the tank now to run through the midfield where as billings showed no indications last year that he is capable of playing anywhere other than off the bench/out of the pocket with minimal game time

I see what you're saying, but this isn't last year - he's much fitter, has a little more bulk on that frame, and has a year in the system now. I think Billings is a bit like Newnes of 2013 - short of injury, he's playing as many games as they can, no matter of form, just to get him to the magic 50 as fast as they can. I don't necessarily agree with it (I can't decide either way), but I still think that'll be their policy.

 

[Defacto]

I see what you're saying, but this isn't last year - he's much fitter, has a little more bulk on that frame, and has a year in the system now. I think Billings is a bit like Newnes of 2013 - short of injury, he's playing as many games as they can, no matter of form, just to get him to the magic 50 as fast as they can. I don't necessarily agree with it (I can't decide either way), but I still think that'll be their policy.

i've seen nothing to suggest billings is like newnes. newnes was ready made, in his first game he was sent to goodes in the NAB Cup. he showed signs that he had a running game and the tank. he was used in shut down rules.

IMO billings is a very smart x-factor type player, but his biggest issue for me is his tank. sure he looks bigger and fitter but its a long way off playing 22 games IMO and if you're comparing the two i'd say eli looks to have put on more size and looks more improved

eli came in and was playing high fwd, running out full games. billings on the other hand started as the sub and was played very deep. dropped after the first game and had to work his way back. if not for injury he probably would have been dropped more. where as eli was a lock and found his feet in a role very early on. if not for injury he would have played 22 games.

given our need to find a winger with pace, he addresses an immediate need more so than billings, who i think we'll be more patient with

i also think we'll see a change in direction. i think theres some tough love coming. the fast tracking cant be done for everyone and given the high picks we have acquired, i cant see us fast tracking them all. i think we'll be playing them on form and output now, rather than gifting them games, injuries aside of course

having said all of this, watch billings play 22 games hehehehe

 

[hayes]

Billings and Dunstan are locks. Eli and Wright are just an issue of who you leave out for them in their respective spots.

Essentially, there's four players playing for the two spots in the back flanks: Savage, Webster, Gilbert, Wright, probably (imo) in that order. I could also chuck in Roberton, or even the Panther, too.

For the small forward role, there's probably two spots, with one of them expected to go into the midfield. Billings gets one, then there's probably Templeton as the most likely. But then the Saad factor comes in. There's also Minchington, although he'd be pretty unlikely at this stage. But then there's another mid like Saunders or Curren, both of whom have said that's their expected role at the moment (which I'm not ecstatic about, because they're both natural mids, but hey). Then there's of course Schneids as well. Throw in Lonie, and it's a very packed spot. For mine, I think it's really a battle between Temps and Saad for the second small forward spot right now.

Depends how you look at it I suppose. When I do my best 22 I find spots for all of Billings, Dunstan, Eli and Wright first then worry about the others.

 

[Kilroy]

I definitely think like Billings, Dunstan, Eli etc Wright fits into that young guys "if they're fit, they're playing" group.

I imagine Weller and Acres fall into that category too, but it's finding that ideal balance between youth and experience at the moment, isn't it?
Lee, Bruce, Longer and White it may depend more on fitness and form.
I'm real keen to see Dan Markworth and Cam Shenton justify the faith too.

i've seen nothing to suggest billings is like newnes. newnes was ready made, in his first game he was sent to goodes in the NAB Cup. he showed signs that he had a running game and the tank. he was used in shut down rules.

IMO billings is a very smart x-factor type player, but his biggest issue for me is his tank. sure he looks bigger and fitter but its a long way off playing 22 games IMO and if you're comparing the two i'd say eli looks to have put on more size and looks more improved

eli came in and was playing high fwd, running out full games. billings on the other hand started as the sub and was played very deep. dropped after the first game and had to work his way back. if not for injury he probably would have been dropped more. where as eli was a lock and found his feet in a role very early on. if not for injury he would have played 22 games.

given our need to find a winger with pace, he addresses an immediate need more so than billings, who i think we'll be more patient with

i also think we'll see a change in direction. i think theres some tough love coming. the fast tracking cant be done for everyone and given the high picks we have acquired, i cant see us fast tracking them all. i think we'll be playing them on form and output now, rather than gifting them games, injuries aside of course

having said all of this, watch billings play 22 games hehehehe

Respect your opinion on that, Defacto.
Eli adds excitement and the fans love seeing him do his magic. Saad has his detractors, mostly cos his long run-up annoys some people.
Wouldn't surprise me if we're singing Minchington's praises before long too.
Bring on the selection headaches, I reckon!

 

[cuzo]

i might be on my own here but i wouldnt be putting billings down as a lock. he looked absolutely buggered in the 2nd half and by our coaches own admission was probably played more than he should have been. dont get me wrong i love billings and think he will be a great player. he's one where the VFL is definitely below him, but its his fitness that will keep him out IMO

eli is ahead of billings by a fairly decent margin also IMO as i think eli has the tank now to run through the midfield where as billings showed no indications last year that he is capable of playing anywhere other than off the bench/out of the pocket with minimal game time

I think we also have to remember that billings had a year of very little footy in 2013, then also pulled his quad in colorado during preseason. Given all of this, i think he did well to run out games at all, so he'll only be better with a full preseason behind him and i see no reason why richardson won't play him 22 games. It's players like him, dunstan, acres, mccartin, templeton etc that richo will play most weeks as they are going to be our nucleus for the years to come a la riewoldt, dal, hayes etc back in the day

 

[Nutsngum]

. Saad has his detractors, mostly cos his long run-up annoys some people.

Pfft, the only people he annoyed was opposition supporters because he kept on kicking goals.

 

[RobbieMuir]

I think Wright will be not only in the 22 for round one but in the starting 18. Players with his elite speed are nearly always outside receivers but Wright goes in and gets his own ball, attacking the contest and attacking his opponent. His broken leg will have fully healed by now so Richo will be keen to unleash him. He seems to be a bit under-rated at the moment but he is one seriously tough guy and he has the talent to become one of our better players in years to come.

 

[joop]

IMO billings is a very smart x-factor type player, but his biggest issue for me is his tank. sure he looks bigger and fitter but its a long way off playing 22 games IMO and if you're comparing the two i'd say eli looks to have put on more size and looks more improved

eli came in and was playing high fwd, running out full games. billings on the other hand started as the sub and was played very deep. dropped after the first game and had to work his way back. if not for injury he probably would have been dropped more. where as eli was a lock and found his feet in a role very early on. if not for injury he would have played 22 games.

given our need to find a winger with pace, he addresses an immediate need more so than billings, who i think we'll be more patient with

i also think we'll see a change in direction. i think theres some tough love coming. the fast tracking cant be done for everyone and given the high picks we have acquired, i cant see us fast tracking them all. i think we'll be playing them on form and output now, rather than gifting them games, injuries aside of course

There's no way you can say for sure that Eli would've played every game. Billings was playing week and not getting dropped, so his fitness obvious wasn't that much of an issue. He's had another full preseason and ran PBs so it's obviously improved.
There's no way Eli is ahead of Billings, as you said Eli may have been running out games better, but was no way having the same impact as Jack. In Elis 5 games (not including the game he was injured) he wasn't even averaging 10 touches a game, whilst Jack (including the 3 games he was sub/subbed) was averaging 16, as well as putting more points on the board.
I sonetimes think Elis excitement factor overshadows his actual output. And as you pointed out, players won't be gifted games as easy so is hope Eli finds more of the footy, he'd easily be dropped before Jack.

(Yes I'm wearing my advocate bias hat)

 

[richcogs]

Long term how do you see Websters role? Is he capable of averaging 20 possessions a game?

 

[Defacto]

There's no way you can say for sure that Eli would've played every game. Billings was playing week and not getting dropped, so his fitness obvious wasn't that much of an issue. He's had another full preseason and ran PBs so it's obviously improved.
There's no way Eli is ahead of Billings, as you said Eli may have been running out games better, but was no way having the same impact as Jack. In Elis 5 games (not including the game he was injured) he wasn't even averaging 10 touches a game, whilst Jack (including the 3 games he was sub/subbed) was averaging 16, as well as putting more points on the board.
I sonetimes think Elis excitement factor overshadows his actual output. And as you pointed out, players won't be gifted games as easy so is hope Eli finds more of the footy, he'd easily be dropped before Jack.

(Yes I'm wearing my advocate bias hat)

Billings did get dropped, for quite a while actually

But you've probably turned me a bit with the output statement

 

[CursingFijian]

There's no way you can say for sure that Eli would've played every game. Billings was playing week and not getting dropped, so his fitness obvious wasn't that much of an issue. He's had another full preseason and ran PBs so it's obviously improved.
There's no way Eli is ahead of Billings, as you said Eli may have been running out games better, but was no way having the same impact as Jack. In Elis 5 games (not including the game he was injured) he wasn't even averaging 10 touches a game, whilst Jack (including the 3 games he was sub/subbed) was averaging 16, as well as putting more points on the board.
I sonetimes think Elis excitement factor overshadows his actual output. And as you pointed out, players won't be gifted games as easy so is hope Eli finds more of the footy, he'd easily be dropped before Jack.

(Yes I'm wearing my advocate bias hat)

Billings is a lock. Stock and barrel. He is IMO, a genuine offensive threat right now, and will have over 30 shots at goal in 2015 I reckon. His efficiency by foot also makes him quite possibly the next gen NickyDal if he gets some time in the middle as an outside player. Opposition teams will have to put work into stopping him like they do a Riewoldt.

I can't see any extra size on Eli. But he does have an engine, some decent acceleration, very good hands at ground level, footy smarts and is a great kick. I would love to see what impact he can have around the ruck. But, I think Saunders would be tracking ahead of him as a mid though. If Eli is selected I think it will be in that forward pocket role where he is competing with Lonie and Saad.

Nathan Wright is also in a starting 21 for me. The run out of defence that we are all hoping Savage will develop, is Nathan's natural playing style. I think his toughness and courage has not been kind to his body so far in his short career, but will go on to make him much loved by the Saints faithful in years to come. If he can improve his kicking skills he and Geary will become a very effective defensive pairing.

When we say no gifting of games, I think Richo will still tinker with his midfield grouping this year, and I think Markworth will be allocated some time in the team. Young bodies will also still need to be managed, so I think we may have a higher rotation than most other clubs. But those who have been in the system a little longer, like Sippos, Simpkins, Murdoch, Shenton, Roberton, Lee, will have to work extremely hard on the training track and at VFL level to ensure they are any chance of a call up.