Discussion Round 1 Best 22

[Defacto]

Don't think I've ever had Ross out of mine! Everyone likes to talk about stuff he doesn't do but he's pretty damn good at the most important thing in the game which is winning the ball. Put him in the middle, give him a few games to get comfortable and we'll be laughing.

i'm one who has left him out, not because i dont think he will be good, but because i think he's a slow burn and probably behind the likes of armitage, steven, dunstan, weller as our inside mids. with monty, ray being able to go through there as well

his biggest issue is like alot of our players, his tank. whats impressive though is that he seems to really be pushing the pain barrier (based solely on footage and how he looked at time, looked in absolute agony but kept going)

personally i think he'll be a bit like kennedy, mundy, jobe etc he'll take time to get firing/get the fitness but when he does he'll be extremely damaging

there are other examples of this at other clubs, players like blakely/cripps will take time too

 

[aussierulesrules]

I was interested in the Armo v Ross topic and how we see Ross potentially developing into the player Armo is today. Run some stats for the their first 28/27 games.


DAVID SEB Result
KICKS 6.5 7 SR
HANDBALLS 5.7 8.2 SR
DISPOSALS 12.2 15.2 SR
MARKS 3.0 2.6 DA
TACKELS 4.5 3.3 DA
GOALS 0.6 0.1 DA
BEHINDS 0.3 0.1 DA
FREES FOR 0.9 0.5 DA
FREES AGAIN 0.9 0.7 SR
CONTESTED POS 5.0 6.0 SR
UNCONTESTED POS 7.1 9.2 SR
1% 1.1 0.8 DA

clearly armo did the little things better and ross finds it a little more, but all in all pretty similar.

for what its worth I don't like the idea of people saying Ross to replace Lenny, I more see it as Armo to replace Lenny's output and Ross to replace Armo's output.

Exactly. Seb ahead in clearances as well, 64 from 27 games to 50 from 28 for Armo.

 

[Periphery]

One of the things I've heard the club still believe he is not up to scratch on is the defensive side of the game mentally. That he gets a bit lazy mentally on the defensive spread and so-on, so he really needs to work on being switched on from that defensive POV, apart from anything else.

Pretty much the only reason I didn't have him in my 22 (had him as 1st emergency) is because if we are at full strength we'll have Armo, Dunstan and presumably Mav in the guts or thereabouts and that is already 3 big, strong and not particularly fast units and with all the talk that Newnes is going to spend time in the middle and hopefully Billings as well, on top of other inside options like Steven and Joey (not to mention a Curren or Saunders, if we go with one or both of them in a defensive forward role), I just preferred a bit more run and versatility on the bench (Webster, Ray, Acres), especially since I already had Dunstan on there.

Fair-dinkum, if we have someone as good as Ray or Webster (with another preseason under his belt) sub in round 1, then that is pretty bloody good for the team that came last the previous year!

That's pretty much my issue as well. I just can't fit all the young players that should get AFL game time into the team if all our senior guys are fit and performing. We have too many young players that have proven they are too good at VFL level but are going to be competing with more senior players for spots. It's a great position to be in, but it makes picking teams exercise in frustration.

As for your other post about a surprise candidate to step up: I think Wright has what it takes, but he just needs to build his tank a bit more and stay fit so he gets a solid opportunity to prove himself.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Yep that's exactly it, we would have so many under 25yo who are now going to be at that stage of being "too good for VFL", who will still be playing VFL if we are near full strength, so that augurs well for us going forward. Perhaps it will be a tiny bit like what used to happen back in say the 80's when the likes of I think Dipper would play about 100 VFL games before they got a look in at Hawthorn. We're obviously not even remotely like Hawthorn of the 80's from an on-field perspective, but given our unique circumstances of coming off 10 years of strong performances and finals footy, we have had so many older types who were or are simply too good to drop to the VFL, so that has meant that a lot of our next crop are going to have a fair bit of VFL footy under their belts if and by the time they become really established in our senior team.

As for Wright, he was the other one I thought of after Saunders and Curren, although I think with the other two having at least spent time in the there in that past, and also playing there in the VFL, they are more likely to be able to do it this year. I'd certainly love to see us try Wright in the guts in either the VFL or AFL this year at times though.

 

[MightySaint]

From the article on Seb Ross:

Second-year midfielder Blake Acres could add further to that mix after shaking off foot, ankle and quad problems to enjoy a strong pre-season.

"He's a good size for the midfield, he can play across half-back and he wins the ball whether it's in the air or on the ground," Richardson said.

"His athletic profile is the best at our footy club and he's had a really good run.

"We need him out there, so I would expect him to play a fair bit of footy this year."

I stand by my misguided belief, best player we brought to the club in 2013. 4 year deal isn't enough

 

[Persevering Saint]

Personally, I think Ross is getting WAY too much of an easy ride here. I think Curren would do a far, FAR better job.

And no, that's not because I'm his advocate. It's the other way around. I became his advocate because I thought he deserves to be given the chance ahead of others like Ross. If Curren had been given the kind of ride Ross has been given, then we wouldn't even be having a discussion about this. Instead, he's either been played entirely out of position (as an inside clearance winner, just like Seb), or hasn't been played at all.

Part of me hopes that we delist Curren, that he's picked up by another team, and guns it, just to teach us a very, very important lesson.

 

[saintbill]

My gut feel is that it's going to be like the last time when we had to find someone to replace Lenny, which was 2011. That year when he did his ACL in round 2 we probably all thought/assumed that Armo would be the logical one to step up and replace him for the rest of that year, and he was of course the one who was tried initially, but evidently Lyon and co. weren't that happy with how he was going in there and I think out of a bit of desperation they threw Jack Steven in there, about a quarter or so into the round 9 game against Melbourne. (After he had been in and out of the team for those first 8 rounds, playing mainly deep forward- possibly in a McQualter/Eddy type role- and was having a quiet one early in that game as well). He instantly just went bang and had something like 19 possessions and a bunch of clearances in the 2nd half, followed it up with an excellent last 15 games and won the 2nd most clearances for us for the rest of the season- becoming our 3rd best "mid" overnight- and it wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened this year.

Not sure if we have "another Jack Steven" up our sleeves, or who it will be (Saunders the most like-for-like, and he is the same age Jack was then and has played more games currently than Jack had then, Curren another possibility), but like it was with Armo at that time, I suspect that Ross's tank may still not quite be up to the required level and that we may just find that he's still not quite ready for the full-time, full season role.

Like it has been with Armo, I think it's going to continue to be a steady build for him, as he builds his tank, without him necessarily ever having a huge break-out type year. (I do think he's a good chance to get there sooner than Armo has though - ie. he could be at 24yo what Armo was by 26yo).

Armo at the start of 2011- About to turn 23yo and with 28 games under his belt.
Ross at the start of 2015- About to turn 22yo and with 27 games under his belt.

Insert Jack Billings.

 

[gringo2011]

Insert Jack Billings.

I think Jack will probably be more on the wing than inside. There seemed to be a suggestion of Dunstan and Ross sharing the role and obviously Armo will be in there and depending on fitness Steven. Curren as suggested could be a back up and Saunders even.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

That's pretty much my issue as well. I just can't fit all the young players that should get AFL game time into the team if all our senior guys are fit and performing. We have too many young players that have proven they are too good at VFL level but are going to be competing with more senior players for spots. It's a great position to be in, but it makes picking teams exercise in frustration.

As for your other post about a surprise candidate to step up: I think Wright has what it takes, but he just needs to build his tank a bit more and stay fit so he gets a solid opportunity to prove himself.

Yep, forgotten man Wright. Hopefully he can play at least a dozen. He has some good tricks.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

i'm one who has left him out, not because i dont think he will be good, but because i think he's a slow burn and probably behind the likes of armitage, steven, dunstan, weller as our inside mids. with monty, ray being able to go through there as well

his biggest issue is like alot of our players, his tank. whats impressive though is that he seems to really be pushing the pain barrier (based solely on footage and how he looked at time, looked in absolute agony but kept going)

personally i think he'll be a bit like kennedy, mundy, jobe etc he'll take time to get firing/get the fitness but when he does he'll be extremely damaging

there are other examples of this at other clubs, players like blakely/cripps will take time too

He seems to have improved this PS though? Top 10 in the TT was one of the best results from my viewpoint, although I note you may be referring to the mental side. Anyway, I'm a fan of his inside work and see him as a much better long term prospect than Curren (sorry Perse). Either way I'll be barracking for both.

 

[CursingFijian]

It's an exciting time to be a Saints supporter, don't you think. So many permutations moving forward and the only way is up!

I like Wright. There is something edgy about him. An underlying toughness that you just can't teach. His natural game is about breaking lines through hard running and I think if we can teach him the dynamics of the midfield and keep building his tank he could be the closest thing to a Lenny Hayes we have on our list.

I know you're all sick of me saying it, but I think Jack Sinclair will become a really handy player in time. He already spends a lot of time training with the midfield group around clearances, so I have to assume that the coaches can see something in him that lends himself to that position. AR said in a recent interview that your last TAC year is a window into your future. If he is on the money then Sinclair is the next big rookie steal.

Can't wait to see him in the NAB cup.

 

[Defacto]

He seems to have improved this PS though? Top 10 in the TT was one of the best results from my viewpoint, although I note you may be referring to the mental side. Anyway, I'm a fan of his inside work and see him as a much better long term prospect than Curren (sorry Perse). Either way I'll be barracking for both.

great point! hopefully his tank is at a point now where he can compete for a full game and he can run without looking in utter pain

 

[Persevering Saint]

So, as of this moment, I think it's safe to say our Round 1 Best 22 is pretty much sorted. We can deduce it from a whole host of things: the leadership group, articles that have been written, comments from the coach the other day, etc.

Here's some of those hints.

• First of all, there's the leadership group: 1 Nick Riewoldt, 2 Leigh Montagna, 3 Sean Dempster, 4 David Armitage, 5 Jarryn Geary, 6 Jack Newnes, 7 Mav Weller.
  
• Then there are those players that were pretty much established best 22 players by the end of last year, the pretty much uncontroversial sure bets: 8 Jack Steven, 9 Shane Savage, 10 Luke Dunstan, 11 Jack Billings, 12 Luke Delaney, 13 Sam Fisher.
• Then there's direct news stories that the club have put on their own page, pretty much explicitly saying that those players will play Round 1 if fit: 14 Seb Ross, 15 Tom Hickey.
• Then there are players that have been frequently discussed in interviews, in a way that strongly suggests they are considered best 22 players, even if they're pretty young or inexperienced: 16 Eli Templeton, 17 Blake Acres.

That's 17 of the 22, right there. From here, we need to start looking at positional needs. So here's how those players look on the board:

FB: Dempster, Delaney, Geary
HB: Savage, Fisher, Half-back-flanker
RK: Hickey, Steven, Armitage
C: Montagna, Dunstan, Newnes
HF: Billings, Riewoldt, Templeton
FF: SmF, 2nd Tall Fwd, 3rd Med Fwd
I/C: Weller, Ross, Acres, Utility

So, to fill those positional needs:

• Half-back-flanker: Probably Gilbert if fit. But Webster or Wright seem the most likely
• Small forward: The most talked about have been Saad and Lonie, with Lonie getting an increasing amount of press recently.
• 2nd tall forward: Basically between White, Bruce, McCartin, and at a stretch Lee. The other option is a second ruckman like Longer, but that seems to have not been endorsed publicly by the club. Bruce sounds the most likely.
• 3rd medium forward: Basically between Lee (better suited for this role), Membrey, or Markworth. Membrey seems to have been the most talked about.
• Utility: Siposs is injured, Markworth is a possibility, Farren Ray has seniority, but Shenton has been frequently mentioned as a favourite of the coach and other staff.

So, here's the most likely 22, based on all we've been hearing from the club over the off-season. I've also added positional emergencies in grey brackets at the end of each line, in a rough order of "next cab off the rack":

FB: Dempster ~ Delaney ~ Geary [Tall backs:Roberton, Goddard, Simpkin]
HB: Savage ~ Fisher ~ Webster [Medium backs: Wright, Gilbert]
RK: Hickey ~ Steven ~ Armitage [Rucks: Longer, Pierce, Holmes]
C: Montagna ~ Dunstan ~ Newnes [Mids: Curren, Saunders, McKenzie, Sinclair]
HF: Billings ~ Riewoldt ~ Templeton [Small fwds: Saad, Minch, Schneider]
FF: Lonie ~ Bruce ~ Membrey [Tall fwds: White, McCartin; Med fwds: Lee, Markworth, Payne]
I/C: Weller, Ross, Acres, Shenton [Utilities: Ray, Murdoch]

 

[Phoenix_9]

If fit Delaney and Fisher are our 2 tall defenders, but who will be our 3rd tall? (Practically everyone plays 3 talls in the fwd line)

I would strongly put a case for Gilbert, however will be unfit at the beginning of the season.

So who's next in line? Roberton? (Definitely if over his ankle?) Simpkin? (Too defensive?) Goddard (too inexperienced?)
Shenton/Dempster are too small imo.

Acres doesnt have the size yet surely? Could see him in a Gilbert style role with a bit more development, much classier ball user tho.

 

[Phoenix_9]

Bruce as a 2nd tall defender, with Fisher as 3rd would be ideal. But looks like Bruce looks set for the Fwd/ruck role

 

[Persevering Saint]

Dempster goes alright in that role.

 

[CursingFijian]

Lonie still very light. He is almost identically sized to Jake Neade in his debut year. Sinclair is physically ready by all reports.

 

[hayes]

Dempster goes alright in that role.

And there's your answer.

 

[Phoenix_9]

Dempster goes alright in that role.

Against Port(Schulz, westhoff, Ryder/lobbe), Hawks(Gunston, Roughead, Hale/McEvoy/Ceglar), swans(Tippet, Franklin, Reid/Goodes) etc etc, Dempster has little chance purely being undersized. (love Dempster tho)

 

[Kilroy]

So, as of this moment, I think it's safe to say our Round 1 Best 22 is pretty much sorted. We can deduce it from a whole host of things: the leadership group, articles that have been written, comments from the coach the other day, etc.

Here's some of those hints.

• First of all, there's the leadership group: 1 Nick Riewoldt, 2 Leigh Montagna, 3 Sean Dempster, 4 David Armitage, 5 Jarryn Geary, 6 Jack Newnes, 7 Mav Weller.
  
• Then there are those players that were pretty much established best 22 players by the end of last year, the pretty much uncontroversial sure bets: 8 Jack Steven, 9 Shane Savage, 10 Luke Dunstan, 11 Jack Billings, 12 Luke Delaney, 13 Sam Fisher.
• Then there's direct news stories that the club have put on their own page, pretty much explicitly saying that those players will play Round 1 if fit: 14 Seb Ross, 15 Tom Hickey.
• Then there are players that have been frequently discussed in interviews, in a way that strongly suggests they are considered best 22 players, even if they're pretty young or inexperienced: 16 Eli Templeton, 17 Blake Acres.

That's 17 of the 22, right there. From here, we need to start looking at positional needs. So here's how those players look on the board:

FB: Dempster, Delaney, Geary
HB: Savage, Fisher, Half-back-flanker
RK: Hickey, Steven, Armitage
C: Montagna, Dunstan, Newnes
HF: Billings, Riewoldt, Templeton
FF: SmF, 2nd Tall Fwd, 3rd Med Fwd
I/C: Weller, Ross, Acres, Utility

So, to fill those positional needs:

• Half-back-flanker: Probably Gilbert if fit. But Webster or Wright seem the most likely
• Small forward: The most talked about have been Saad and Lonie, with Lonie getting an increasing amount of press recently.
• 2nd tall forward: Basically between White, Bruce, McCartin, and at a stretch Lee. The other option is a second ruckman like Longer, but that seems to have not been endorsed publicly by the club. Bruce sounds the most likely.
• 3rd medium forward: Basically between Lee (better suited for this role), Membrey, or Markworth. Membrey seems to have been the most talked about.
• Utility: Siposs is injured, Markworth is a possibility, Farren Ray has seniority, but Shenton has been frequently mentioned as a favourite of the coach and other staff.

So, here's the most likely 22, based on all we've been hearing from the club over the off-season. I've also added positional emergencies in grey brackets at the end of each line, in a rough order of "next cab off the rack":

FB: Dempster ~ Delaney ~ Geary [Tall backs:Roberton, Goddard, Simpkin]
HB: Savage ~ Fisher ~ Webster [Medium backs: Wright, Gilbert]
RK: Hickey ~ Steven ~ Armitage [Rucks: Longer, Pierce, Holmes]
C: Montagna ~ Dunstan ~ Newnes [Mids: Curren, Saunders, McKenzie, Sinclair]
HF: Billings ~ Riewoldt ~ Templeton [Small fwds: Saad, Minch, Schneider]
FF: Lonie ~ Bruce ~ Membrey [Tall fwds: White, McCartin; Med fwds: Lee, Markworth, Payne]
I/C: Weller, Ross, Acres, Shenton [Utilities: Ray, Murdoch]

I reckon you've got Webster and Armitage on the best side for lefties coming out of defence.
And you've got Billings and Lonie on the best side for lefties to slot goals in the forward half.
Which also means you've got the right-footers sorted on the other side
Too clever by half.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

So, as of this moment, I think it's safe to say our Round 1 Best 22 is pretty much sorted. We can deduce it from a whole host of things: the leadership group, articles that have been written, comments from the coach the other day, etc.

Here's some of those hints.

• First of all, there's the leadership group: 1 Nick Riewoldt, 2 Leigh Montagna, 3 Sean Dempster, 4 David Armitage, 5 Jarryn Geary, 6 Jack Newnes, 7 Mav Weller.
  
• Then there are those players that were pretty much established best 22 players by the end of last year, the pretty much uncontroversial sure bets: 8 Jack Steven, 9 Shane Savage, 10 Luke Dunstan, 11 Jack Billings, 12 Luke Delaney, 13 Sam Fisher.
• Then there's direct news stories that the club have put on their own page, pretty much explicitly saying that those players will play Round 1 if fit: 14 Seb Ross, 15 Tom Hickey.
• Then there are players that have been frequently discussed in interviews, in a way that strongly suggests they are considered best 22 players, even if they're pretty young or inexperienced: 16 Eli Templeton, 17 Blake Acres.

That's 17 of the 22, right there. From here, we need to start looking at positional needs. So here's how those players look on the board:

FB: Dempster, Delaney, Geary
HB: Savage, Fisher, Half-back-flanker
RK: Hickey, Steven, Armitage
C: Montagna, Dunstan, Newnes
HF: Billings, Riewoldt, Templeton
FF: SmF, 2nd Tall Fwd, 3rd Med Fwd
I/C: Weller, Ross, Acres, Utility

So, to fill those positional needs:

• Half-back-flanker: Probably Gilbert if fit. But Webster or Wright seem the most likely
• Small forward: The most talked about have been Saad and Lonie, with Lonie getting an increasing amount of press recently.
• 2nd tall forward: Basically between White, Bruce, McCartin, and at a stretch Lee. The other option is a second ruckman like Longer, but that seems to have not been endorsed publicly by the club. Bruce sounds the most likely.
• 3rd medium forward: Basically between Lee (better suited for this role), Membrey, or Markworth. Membrey seems to have been the most talked about.
• Utility: Siposs is injured, Markworth is a possibility, Farren Ray has seniority, but Shenton has been frequently mentioned as a favourite of the coach and other staff.

So, here's the most likely 22, based on all we've been hearing from the club over the off-season. I've also added positional emergencies in grey brackets at the end of each line, in a rough order of "next cab off the rack":

FB: Dempster ~ Delaney ~ Geary [Tall backs:Roberton, Goddard, Simpkin]
HB: Savage ~ Fisher ~ Webster [Medium backs: Wright, Gilbert]
RK: Hickey ~ Steven ~ Armitage [Rucks: Longer, Pierce, Holmes]
C: Montagna ~ Dunstan ~ Newnes [Mids: Curren, Saunders, McKenzie, Sinclair]
HF: Billings ~ Riewoldt ~ Templeton [Small fwds: Saad, Minch, Schneider]
FF: Lonie ~ Bruce ~ Membrey [Tall fwds: White, McCartin; Med fwds: Lee, Markworth, Payne]
I/C: Weller, Ross, Acres, Shenton [Utilities: Ray, Murdoch]

An extremely well thought out synopsis, but what it does mean that if you do get a run you had better play your ring out to keep your spot.

 

[Persevering Saint]

An extremely well thought out synopsis, but what it does mean that if you do get a run you had better play your ring out to keep your spot.

Yes indeed. A great thing to do would be too look at how secure in their spot all those players are, if they remain fit. There are players like Joey, Roo, Fisher, etc, that you'd say were pretty safe. But there's one's like Ross and Shents who will have the vultures gathering.

 

[gobbles]

I'll put two teams in. First will be on topic for the round 1 team. Second will be what I would like to be best 22.

Round 1
Dempster, Delaney, Geary
Newnes, Bruce, Fisher
Templeton, Dunstan, Armitage
Billings, Riewoldt, Montanga
Longer, White, Membrey
Hickey, Steven, Ross
Acres, Weller, Saunders, Ray

What I'd like it to become.
Dempster, Deleaney, Wright
Fisher, Bruce , Webster
Templeton, Dunstan, Newnes
Billings, Riewoldt, Acres
Membrey, White, Weller
Hickey, Steven, Montanga
Ross, Longer, Geary, Armitage

Some may scoff or disapprove.
honestly I don't rate Armitage or Geary, yeah they give leadership and toughness . I feel Wright or Webster should be overtaking Geary. Acres and Ross should be overtaking Armitage as dunstan already has.

Gilbert will be lucky to get a game as with Tom Lee (mr insurance)

Membrey will be a gun!

Templeton is a gun! Picked us getting him in rookie draft other yr.

I actually rate White. He's had a taste now , let's see how he goes not to disappoint me and become another Siposs.

Obviously waiting in the wings are McCartin, Goddard , Lonie, and Makworkth ... No opinion on Mckenzie as I Havnt seen him play.

I feel we need another "gun" midfielder. Wouldn't mind Sloane and a top draft pick come end of yr slotting in.

 

[ike2112]

The more I think about it, the more Murdoch is the big enigma. He COULD be another player in that backline group with Savage, Webster, etc. He COULD be another one of the players fighting for a midfield spot. He COULD be a medium tall who floats onto the wing, and is thus competing with Membrey, Markworth, or to a lesser extent Lee. His versatility puts him on the cusp of each of those roles, but precisely because he's so versatile, he doesn't seem to rise to the top of any of those role-lists.

The question is, will his versatility across the ground mean the coaches just pick him anyway?

I think at this point in time, it's actually hurting his development if he doesn't find a home on the field this year.

In developing potential elite athletes, normally suggest kids specialise in a sport from 17 (unless obviously very high class in more than one), then find a role within that sport by 20. Giving 2-3 years development in that role leading into the peak years of 23-27.
It's not a precise thing, but you really need to have a focus in order to properly prepare and have appropriately focused training.

 

[felsty]

I think at this point in time, it's actually hurting his development if he doesn't find a home on the field this year.

In developing potential elite athletes, normally suggest kids specialise in a sport from 17 (unless obviously very high class in more than one), then find a role within that sport by 20. Giving 2-3 years development in that role leading into the peak years of 23-27.
It's not a precise thing, but you really need to have a focus in order to properly prepare and have appropriately focused training.

Blasphemy! :O
Murdoch has a home, its called a football oval. Which he dominates regardless of what part of the ground he is in! One of the greatest and most feared Saints of all time!