Autopsy Round 8, 2023 : Positives and Negatives vs Richmond

[Chump Change]

The reality is Kelly and Sheed should both be playing on Wings and getting the ball in more space as opposed to having to do the grunt work on the inside. We have no developed centre square midfielders and no effective ruckman.

I have an issue with the word "develop". There's people (not necessarily you) who think you can get any young player and "develop" them into Yeo or Shuey. Not only did we not have a top 10 draft pick for 10 years, but we traded out 2nd rounders for Yeo, Cripps, and Redden thereby by reducing our law of averages in being able to jag a gun from the 2nd or 3rd round.

Simmo tried Duggan in the midfield and it did look like a natural progression, but he failed. Perhaps he could have given XON an extended run. But outside that, I'm not seeing a single player that has been on our list that realistically could be "developed" into a midfielder.

I think people get confused as to what "develop" actually means. Develop just means "build a player's tank up, have them train with the midfield group, and give them increasing time in the midfield". But said player has to have midfield talent. You can't just develop Cole or West into top end mids like Shuey and Yeo.

So the question is, who are these midfielders we were meant to "develop".

I think people can see already that the first guy we've had in a long time that can be "developed" is Ginbey. I liked how that put Duggan back in there too. Probably not going to be good enough, but you never know.

 

[Dark Sharks]

The WAFL brigade

XON - 13 touches, 2 tackles, 5 clangers + 1 miss from 20m out.

West - 14 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 good goal (probably the only one of this lot with a pass mark, given the position he played)

Trew - 9 touches at 44%, 0 tackles

Clark - 13 touches, 1 contested, 3 turnovers, 3 tackles

Foley - 11 touches, 1 contested, 2 clangers, 0 tackles


^ that lot needs to go first.

With the below getting the nudge sooner rather than later.


Rotham - 13 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 gimp uncontested mark drop ending in a direct goal to the oppo.

Petrucelle - 13 touches, 2 turnovers, 4 tackles, 1 good goal + 1 lollipop 15m pass he sat on top of Ledwards head for Pickett to jump on.

Ledwards - 11 touches, 4 clangers, 6 tackles.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

29 disposals, 7 marks, 5 tackles, 9 clearances (equal best for WCE) and 2 goal assists (out of a team total of 4) from 76% time on ground in his first game back.... Don't think Sheed is the problem here.

Unlike Kelly who is 1st in the league in Clangers, 1st in the league in turnovers. Or Gaff with his grand total of 9 effective disposals and 1 tackle.

The reality is Kelly and Sheed should both be playing on Wings and getting the ball in more space as opposed to having to do the grunt work on the inside. We have no developed centre square midfielders and no effective ruckman. No effective half forwards to kick to or ground ball presence inside the forward 50. Oh and Hurn's defensive creativity is like a steam train slowly running on straight tracks.

In regards to further negatives we have lost Culley to a major knee injury, Allen injured his knee as well, Darling shouldn't be playing due to injury, Exxon played with a cracked rib.

To say the situation is dire is an understatement. The only positives I can see are is the players are putting in and our tackling has improved. The only reason we aren't stone cold motherless last is because there is a team which is being setup to actively lose matches.

* a Duck

That just depresses me.

What can you do, move onto next week.

 

[Godfather32]

The WAFL brigade

XON - 13 touches, 2 tackles, 5 clangers + 1 miss from 20m out.

West - 14 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 good goal (probably the only one of this lot with a pass mark, given the position he played)

Trew - 9 touches at 44%, 0 tackles

Clark - 13 touches, 1 contested, 3 turnovers, 3 tackles

Foley - 11 touches, 1 contested, 2 clangers, 0 tackles


^ that lot needs to go first.

With the below getting the nudge sooner rather than later.


Rotham - 13 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 gimp uncontested mark drop ending in a direct goal to the oppo.

Petrucelle - 13 touches, 2 turnovers, 4 tackles, 1 good goal + 1 lollipop 15m pass he sat on top of Ledwards head for Pickett to jump on.

Ledwards - 11 touches, 4 clangers, 6 tackles.

Yep, get rid of as many as we can this year when you factor in retirements and then the rest go next year if no improvement.
XON might be worth keeping as a mature backup & to help the WAFL team but not 100% sure I'd bother.
LEdwards has the tools to be a good player but he's way too slow to make it at AFL level imo.

 

[Obeanie1]

The WAFL brigade

XON - 13 touches, 2 tackles, 5 clangers + 1 miss from 20m out.

West - 14 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 good goal (probably the only one of this lot with a pass mark, given the position he played)

Trew - 9 touches at 44%, 0 tackles

Clark - 13 touches, 1 contested, 3 turnovers, 3 tackles

Foley - 11 touches, 1 contested, 2 clangers, 0 tackles


^ that lot needs to go first.

With the below getting the nudge sooner rather than later.


Rotham - 13 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 gimp uncontested mark drop ending in a direct goal to the oppo.

Petrucelle - 13 touches, 2 turnovers, 4 tackles, 1 good goal + 1 lollipop 15m pass he sat on top of Ledwards head for Pickett to jump on.

Ledwards - 11 touches, 4 clangers, 6 tackles.

It wont be difficult finding players to cut if we want to cut deep this year.

Easily cut 10 off the main list.

We should look at 2 mid season picks.

Best available with our 1st.

Id go Narkle with a 2nd MSD pick. In the next cou0lp of years we need 25 to 27 year old role players to help the kids. Narkle is better than any of Clark, West, Foley, Trew, Winder, Xon and Shuey and Gaff are done. Thats 8 players and we havent got to retiring Hurn and moving on Rotham and Petrecelle. Thats 11 players to move out and there will be others.

No wonder we are resigning Gov and Cripps.

 

[BOND 007]

I have an issue with the word "develop". There's people (not necessarily you) who think you can get any young player and "develop" them into Yeo or Shuey. Not only did we not have a top 10 draft pick for 10 years, but we traded out 2nd rounders for Yeo, Cripps, and Redden thereby by reducing our law of averages in being able to jag a gun from the 2nd or 3rd round.

Simmo tried Duggan in the midfield and it did look like a natural progression, but he failed. Perhaps he could have given XON an extended run. But outside that, I'm not seeing a single player that has been on our list that realistically could be "developed" into a midfielder.

I think people get confused as to what "develop" actually means. Develop just means "build a player's tank up, have them train with the midfield group, and give them increasing time in the midfield". But said player has to have midfield talent. You can't just develop Cole or West into top end mids like Shuey and Yeo.

So the question is, who are these midfielders we were meant to "develop".

I think people can see already that the first guy we've had in a long time that can be "developed" is Ginbey. I liked how that put Duggan back in there too. Probably not going to be good enough, but you never know.

I think for the 1st time in a while, someone's actually "got it". All I keep reading about is "how WC are great at picking good talls but s**t at drafting good mids". And posters keep holding up names like Sloane, Parker. Neale etc as examples of players missed. Yep WC missed them as did every other team as well, some of them multiple times.

Then we keep hearing how we're s**t at developing said midfielders, as though it's the club's fault that they can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The inescapable fact is that for the most part those with talent are found at the pointy end of the draft. And WC haven't exactly been blessed with many selections there recently. It's also a bit of luck having pointy end selections when the talent pool is there to select from.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Id go Narkle with a 2nd MSD pick. In the next cou0lp of years we need 25 to 27 year old role players to help the kids. Narkle is better than any of Clark, West, Foley, Trew, Winder, Xon and Shuey and Gaff are done. Thats 8 players and we havent got to retiring Hurn and moving on Rotham and Petrecelle. Thats 11 players to move out and there will be others.

Dunno, I'd chuck Narkle in the same boat as SPS, and that's not good enough consistently enough for AFL.

The Brendan Ah Chee boat.

Use the MSD to take an actual punt on a raw prospect who could take the their game to another level in a professional environment, not give a failed C grader another crack IMO.

 

[Nigellathechook]

That spate of 5-6 kick-ins by Hurn to the exact same spot for the exact same result was just plain pathetic. Try kicking short, or to the opposite side of the ground where less numbers are.

Reminded me of the 4th quarter of the 1991 Grand Final

 

[amazingjoshy]

+ve:
had a go, vast improvement in effort from last week
Oscar
Jones
Williams
Duggan
Sheed was good on return

-ve:
Culley ffs

Gaffs last 2 weeks
17 touches 2 tackles 58% DE
14 touches 1 tackle 62% DE

 

[timeforanother22]

Won't have a team to field shortly, we'll just forfeit.

TBH that would be a great option. We will lose anyway. Take a week off, let the young guys have a rest, lower risk of someone else getting injured PLUS we can all have a mental break from this torture as well.

 

[Chump Change]

I think for the 1st time in a while, someone's actually "got it". All I keep reading about is "how WC are great at picking good talls but s**t at drafting good mids". And posters keep holding up names like Sloane, Parker. Neale etc as examples of players missed. Yep WC missed them as did every other team as well, some of them multiple times.

Then we keep hearing how we're s**t at developing said midfielders, as though it's the club's fault that they can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The inescapable fact is that for the most part those with talent are found at the pointy end of the draft. And WC haven't exactly been blessed with many selections there recently. It's also a bit of luck having pointy end selections when the talent pool is there to select from.

When we talk about Sloane, Neale and the likes, at aged 18 these players have shown no inkling they would end up elite.

When you have pick #1, you maybe have 2 players to choose from, and sometimes a Reid comes along and they're so far above everyone else the decision is made for you. The chance of getting an elite player are high and the chance of getting a dud are low.

When you have #5-#10, you maybe have 3-4 players to choose from. There's a reasonable chance of getting an elite player, a reasonable chance of getting a gun, and a reasonable chance of getting a dud.

When you have a pick over #30, all of a sudden you have 15 players to choose from. Maybe one of those players end up elite if you're really lucky, maybe one A-graders if you're lucky, and 2 or 3 solid role players.

Here's what you choose from at pick #30:



This 2009 - 2019 picks 30 to 44. Do your own working but I have:

11 years, 165 players.
2 elite - Parker and Gawn
8 A-grade - Warner, Darcy, Stewart, Maynard, Pearce, Yeo, Bradley Hill, Liberatore
10 Good - Tom De Koning, Fritsch, Redman, George Hewett, Nankervis, Koloverjaznij, Barrass, Aliir, Howe, McInerny (Swans)

Players to miss on being graded good: Trent Rivers, Keidean Coleman, Petty, Ballard, Adams, Hardwick, Neale-Bullen

Maybe you can swap some of those players around depending on subjective opinions, but it's swings and roundabouts. Essentially out of 165 players to choose from at pick 30, the odds are;

elite = approx 1%
A-grade = approx 5%
Good = approx 6%
Average, Fringe or dud =88%


It's a lottery. Those guys like Sloane and Neale, at 17 are yet to peak. And no one one who the players are who still have a massive upside in the tank.

We traded 2nd and 3rd rounders to get Yeo, Cripps, Redden to win a flag, amd TK to try and win another, and people wonder why we don't have Shuey and Yeo replacements ready to go?

No top 10 picks for a decade, and a reduced amount of later picks that have an 88% failure rate. To find those gems after pick 30, you need to have a heap more tickets in the draw. We traded a good portion of ours for a flag.

 

[Godfather32]

I think for the 1st time in a while, someone's actually "got it". All I keep reading about is "how WC are great at picking good talls but s**t at drafting good mids". And posters keep holding up names like Sloane, Parker. Neale etc as examples of players missed. Yep WC missed them as did every other team as well, some of them multiple times.

Then we keep hearing how we're s**t at developing said midfielders, as though it's the club's fault that they can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The inescapable fact is that for the most part those with talent are found at the pointy end of the draft. And WC haven't exactly been blessed with many selections there recently. It's also a bit of luck having pointy end selections when the talent pool is there to select from.

Sure, but there's plenty of good roleplayer/depth midfielders throughout the league and on most teams that have been taken later in the draft than the top 10.
Who was the last midfielder we took outside the top 10 who has worked out in any long term capacity? Dom Sheed?

 

[timeforanother22]

I went to the 2018 GF. I am content with the above choices to get us there.

I want to win now more for the kids belief than anything else. I am not sure we are getting Reid this year though. Any team that loses to Freo by 11 goals has shown their intent. We couldn’t even match that loss with 6 in game injuries.

 

[Chump Change]

I went to the 2018 GF. I am content with the above choices to get us there.

I want to win now more for the kids belief than anything else. I am not sure we are getting Reid this year though. Any team that loses to Freo by 11 goals has shown their intent. We couldn’t even match that loss with 6 in game injuries.

Those Hawthorn campaignery campaigners.

I'd be giving Oscar a tap on the shoulder right now. Soz mate, club doctor says you injured your knee. 2 weeks.
I'd be aiming for a WAFL top up and then on game day, any player in form, "Soz, he has concussion, it's half time and we're down to no bench".

 

[Chump Change]

Sure, but there's plenty of good roleplayer/depth midfielders throughout the league and on most teams that have been taken later in the draft than the top 10.
Who was the last midfielder we took outside the top 10 who has worked out in any long term capacity? Dom Sheed?

With what picks we had left, we didn't choose many mids. XON at about 24. Probably should have been given more opportunities in my opinion. But typically you choose mids inside pick 30 and after pick 30, KPD's, flankers, small forwards, rucks etc.

In 11 drafts above, picks 30 - 44, 165 players, 6 good (or better) midfielders and one was an FS.

 

[kranky al]

Couple of short memories in here, darling is 6th in the most goals kicked of active afl players.

Likely to be 2nd or 3rd by the time he finishes up (dependent on when Hawkins retires and when Lynch passes him), has had a very very good career.

Fwwwark i wish hed take a chest mark in his fxxxxxxn chest with his arms surrounding it not with one hand twisted like a pretzel.

If he did that hed prolly be at 2nd or 3rd

 

[ConcreteWaters]

The WAFL brigade

XON - 13 touches, 2 tackles, 5 clangers + 1 miss from 20m out.

West - 14 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 good goal (probably the only one of this lot with a pass mark, given the position he played)

Trew - 9 touches at 44%, 0 tackles

Clark - 13 touches, 1 contested, 3 turnovers, 3 tackles

Foley - 11 touches, 1 contested, 2 clangers, 0 tackles


^ that lot needs to go first.

With the below getting the nudge sooner rather than later.


Rotham - 13 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 gimp uncontested mark drop ending in a direct goal to the oppo.

Petrucelle - 13 touches, 2 turnovers, 4 tackles, 1 good goal + 1 lollipop 15m pass he sat on top of Ledwards head for Pickett to jump on.

Ledwards - 11 touches, 4 clangers, 6 tackles.

Christ that's harsh on Edwards who's played what, 12 games

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

I think for the 1st time in a while, someone's actually "got it". All I keep reading about is "how WC are great at picking good talls but s**t at drafting good mids". And posters keep holding up names like Sloane, Parker. Neale etc as examples of players missed. Yep WC missed them as did every other team as well, some of them multiple times.

Then we keep hearing how we're s**t at developing said midfielders, as though it's the club's fault that they can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The inescapable fact is that for the most part those with talent are found at the pointy end of the draft. And WC haven't exactly been blessed with many selections there recently. It's also a bit of luck having pointy end selections when the talent pool is there to select from.

The various excuses are really wearing thin.

The complete lack of opportunities given to youth prior to our unprecedented 2 year injury run would be a factor in the lack of development. Credits in the bank has a bit to answer for.

The shambles that is our reserves.
The missed NGA/academy nominations.
The dumb positions players are asked to play (Gaff inside mid, Allen ruck, Rotham key defender).

 

[FKASC]

 

[WA footy mad]

Positives:
. The game plan "speed on the ball", looked good for the 1st half of the game

Negatives
. Fitness levels poor dropped off after half time
. Sheed played OK but was slowing the ball movement down to much couldn't make fast decisions.
. Knee injury lowest point of the game

 

[Dark Sharks]

Christ that's harsh on Edwards who's played what, 12 games

Agreed. I like Edwards, but if I'm being harsh to the rest he can't be spared.

Third year in the system. Late pick, but I wouldn't want another situation like XON where we've kept non AFL quality depth longer than we should have.

FWIW I'd give him another year personally, but facts are he's pretty injury prone, doesn't dominate WAFL, far from it (averages 17 touches a game) and is yet to cement a spot in our team even now, despite all the injuries.

There's a few in the firing line before him, I'll say that much.

 

[mehow2g]

Our game is good our intent at times looks very good but the players are just not good enough as to be expected but pretty impressive to be honest given the list, in past history we have shown worse work ethic and intent with a far better list so props to Simpson keeping the boys focused in hard times.

We are going to need 2-3 drafts before we are something decent again half or more of the players wont be there for our next push.

 

[shoutsatclouds]

I think for the 1st time in a while, someone's actually "got it". All I keep reading about is "how WC are great at picking good talls but s**t at drafting good mids". And posters keep holding up names like Sloane, Parker. Neale etc as examples of players missed. Yep WC missed them as did every other team as well, some of them multiple times.

Then we keep hearing how we're s**t at developing said midfielders, as though it's the club's fault that they can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

The inescapable fact is that for the most part those with talent are found at the pointy end of the draft. And WC haven't exactly been blessed with many selections there recently. It's also a bit of luck having pointy end selections when the talent pool is there to select from.

Bingo!

There are plenty of examples of the word 'Develop' in the OED, but this one is pertinent;
c. The bringing out of the latent capabilities (of anything); the fuller expansion (of any principle or activity).

There has to be something 'there' first, in order to then be able to develop 'it'.

There're very few outside of the top 10 that have that elusive 'it', and even then there's no guarantee that you're going to wind up with the next Chris Judd. You're just as likely to get Jack Watts...

EDIT: Beaten to it by Chumpy (with examples...)

 

[ziad]

The WAFL brigade

XON - 13 touches, 2 tackles, 5 clangers + 1 miss from 20m out.

West - 14 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 good goal (probably the only one of this lot with a pass mark, given the position he played)

Trew - 9 touches at 44%, 0 tackles

Clark - 13 touches, 1 contested, 3 turnovers, 3 tackles

Foley - 11 touches, 1 contested, 2 clangers, 0 tackles


^ that lot needs to go first.

With the below getting the nudge sooner rather than later.


Rotham - 13 touches, 1 tackle, 4 turnovers + 1 gimp uncontested mark drop ending in a direct goal to the oppo.

Petrucelle - 13 touches, 2 turnovers, 4 tackles, 1 good goal + 1 lollipop 15m pass he sat on top of Ledwards head for Pickett to jump on.

Ledwards - 11 touches, 4 clangers, 6 tackles.

Waterman, Duggan, etc - lets have a propper planned clean out

 

[BOND 007]

Sure, but there's plenty of good roleplayer/depth midfielders throughout the league and on most teams that have been taken later in the draft than the top 10.
Who was the last midfielder we took outside the top 10 who has worked out in any long term capacity? Dom Sheed?

Understand. However let's distinguish between an elite midfielder in the mould of Cousins, Judd, Kerr and role players like Fletcher, Braun etc.

Quite simply Cousins, Judd etc make Fletcher look good. Without them he becomes what he is - a B grade player. Freo found that out when they got Headland.

So not sure what you're talking about long term? Have a Shuey circa 2014-2018 with Yeo and Kelly means XON or even Clark would look quite OK.