Trade hypotheticals

[Winmar2Lockett]

Would be perfectly happy trading our first round pick for Steven.
Exactly what we need IMO.

I'm not sure why Jack is being mentioned as possible trade bait... possibly because some St Kilda supporters have ludicrously short memories (maybe due to the past being extremely painful).

Jack's 2013 season was absolutely outstanding & a bright light in a dismal year. After his pre-season was wrecked, he then came back too soon & was a shadow of his best. IMO he's as untradeable as Jack Billings & Luke Dunstan (or Roo as a 23 year old).

It would take an exceptionally good deal to extract Jack away. And even then it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[eaglespremiers]

I'm not sure why Jack is being mentioned as possible trade bait... possibly because some St Kilda supporters have ludicrously short memories (maybe due to the past being extremely painful).

Jack's 2013 season was absolutely outstanding & a bright light in a dismal year. After his pre-season was wrecked, he then came back too soon & was a shadow of his best. IMO he's as untradeable as Jack Billings & Luke Dunstan (or Roo as a 23 year old).

It would take an exceptionally good deal to extract Jack away. And even then it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

I wasn't commenting on the validity of the rumour just what I thought we'd be happy to give up.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Cam Ellis-Yolmen
What is his perceived trade value?

Nada, really. He's played one average game in three years since being drafted with a pick in the 60s, despite being exactly the kind of player the Crows could use.

A token trade for a very late pick is all Adelaide would get in my opinion.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Pick 1 in 2014 is not like for like for pick 1 in 2013.

Tom Boyd was a consensus number 1 pick.

Gee, I wonder why that was?

While Tom was doing the business in the juniors, Jesse Hogan was dominating at senior VFL level at the same age and won the B&F at his VFL club. Had he not been removed from the draft pool the year before, through the extraordinary circumstances of the twice-off mini draft, he could have just as easily gone at no.1 in the draft and then of course there was Jack Martin, who was being hailed at the time as the greatest thing since sliced bread and better than Jaegar O'Meara at the same age- at the time when JOM was streeting the field in the Rising Star award. So depending on who had pick 1 and what their needs were, he could have also just as easily gone at pick 1.

So yes, Boyd was "consensus pick 1", but only because by far and away his two biggest "rivals" for that had been removed from the draft pool the year before by extraordinary circumstances. Had it not been for those circumstances, Boyd could have just as easily gone at pick 3, depending on who had the first two picks, what their priorities were and so-on.

So if you're suggesting that pick 1 this year is not like pick 1 last year simply because there is "no consensus no.1 pick", you might just like to ask yourself whether there would be had say Petracca and Wright been taken out of this year's, like Martin and Hogan had been from last year's, because I reckon that would have left McCartin as pretty clearly the "consensus no.1 pick" by now, as Boyd was at this stage last year.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Gee, I wonder why that was?

While Tom was doing the business in the juniors, Jesse Hogan was dominating at senior VFL level at the same age and won the B&F at his VFL club. Had he not been removed from the draft pool the year before, through the extraordinary circumstances of the twice-off mini draft, he could have just as easily gone at no.1 in the draft and then of course there was Jack Martin, who was being hailed at the time as the greatest thing since sliced bread and better than Jaegar O'Meara at the same age- at the time when JOM was streeting the field in the Rising Star award. So depending on who had pick 1 and what their needs were, he could have also just as easily gone at pick 1.

So yes, Boyd was "consensus pick 1", but only because by far and away his two biggest "rivals" for that had been removed from the draft pool the year before by extraordinary circumstances. Had it not been for those circumstances, Boyd could have just as easily gone at pick 3, depending on who had the first two picks, what their priorities were and so-on.

So if you're suggesting that pick 1 this year is not like pick 1 last year simply because there is "no consensus no.1 pick", you might just like to ask yourself whether there would be had say Petracca and Wright been taken out of this year's, like Martin and Hogan had been from last year's, because I reckon that would have left McCartin as pretty clearly the "consensus no.1 pick" by now, as Boyd was at this stage last year.

It's a bit pointless arguing with your logic which is all related to hypotheticals. All I can say is that at this point Tom Boyd is rated a vastly superior player to McCartin. This may well change in the future as none of us know how they will develop but I'd suggest all your supporters are so keen to raise the idea of a trade for him that this is pretty bloody obvious.

You can forget about General and Jezza who will both sign before the year is out. Tom will take the longest for us to sign up as he will probably need to be convinced about his role and where the club is heading but I reckon when he sees how much we improve next year and that he is an integral part of that his signature will come as well.

Those talking about salary cap dramas for us are getting way ahead of themselves as we front loaded our highest paid players and have allowances such as ambassadorial payments still up our sleeve.

Our salary cap dramas will come after we start winning flags.

Till then we will keep 90% of the blokes we want to keep.But getting back to your argument...it's crap... that is all.

 

[aussierulesrules]

But getting back to your argument...it's crap... that is all.

No it's not.

Whether you like it or not, last year's was a very heavily compromised draft as far as the very top end of it went and that has to come into it if you're making the sort of argument that you were making, which I responded to.

You said and I quote, " Pick 1 in 2014 is not like for like for pick 1 in 2013.

Tom Boyd was a consensus number 1 pick."

That is all I quoted and that is all I was arguing against, not any of that other stuff that you just raised and what you said which I quoted implies that because Boyd was clearly the "consensus no.1 pick" he is worth more than this year's no.1 pick, because there is much less consensus this year, but again, I have no doubt whatsoever that if Hogan and Martin had been kept in that draft pool as per usual that they would have been just as much of a chance to go at pick 1 as Boyd, all things being equal, meaning that like this year, there would almost certainly have been no clear "consensus" and it would have likely all come down to what the clubs with those first couple of picks preferences and needs were and so-on.

You are far from the only one that is making that sort of argument BTW. I had this same argument with someone on our board recently who was basically arguing simply that because Boyd went at pick 1 last year that we would have to give up at least pick 1 this year, if GWS happened to put him on the table. He wasn't arguing that because he thought Boyd was better than whoever was likely to go no.1 this year, but simply because he happened to be the one taken at pick 1 and as such that was pretty much all that mattered in terms of trade value, which I don't agree with. Had last year's been an uncompromised draft and Boyd gone at 3, which he so easily could have, then I don't believe it should affect what he would be worth this year in a trade. It wouldn't suddenly make him only worth pick 3 this year, as far as I'm concerned. I would still think he'd be worth at least pick 1 in a trade.

As for the rest of what you just said, I think one of the main reasons many from our board are keen on trading for someone like Boyd is because the one who most on our board feel is the best of this year's batch is not McCartin, but Petracca (as your club supposedly does), but that we have more of a structural need for someone more like a Patton or Boyd (especially if they could pinch-hit in the ruck) and that as such if we have pick one we would possibly prefer to trade it for one of them, rather than draft Petracca- who looks bloody outstanding, but who doesn't fill as much of a need as a Patton/Boyd would.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of Petracca from what I've seen of him and been told about him and so-on, but I've also been a huge fan of Boyd, so I'd be pumped to have either of them, if we had the chance to get either.

 

[Quigley]

It's a bit pointless arguing with your logic which is all related to hypotheticals. All I can say is that at this point Tom Boyd is rated a vastly superior player to McCartin. This may well change in the future as none of us know how they will develop but I'd suggest all your supporters are so keen to raise the idea of a trade for him that this is pretty bloody obvious.

You can forget about General and Jezza who will both sign before the year is out. Tom will take the longest for us to sign up as he will probably need to be convinced about his role and where the club is heading but I reckon when he sees how much we improve next year and that he is an integral part of that his signature will come as well.

Those talking about salary cap dramas for us are getting way ahead of themselves as we front loaded our highest paid players and have allowances such as ambassadorial payments still up our sleeve.

Our salary cap dramas will come after we start winning flags.

Till then we will keep 90% of the blokes we want to keep.But getting back to your argument...it's crap... that is all.

Agree Boyd was and is a significantly better prospect than McCartin.

I think the ambassadorial payments might be a bit harder to come by in the future. The AFL is going to be under presssure to spread them around and whilst GWS would probably pick up one there is no way they are going to have a heap whilst other teams miss out all together.

Also 90% I think is too high a percentage. There are going to be guys who were highly drafted who are playing reserves and think they should be playing right now and that they can return home and get games for a team at home. And get the adoration that comes with being an AFL player in an AFL state. I expect GWS not to lose a heap of their starting 22 guys but the drop out rate in that highly drafted reserves group (who GWS would absolutely like to keep if they could) is going to be material. I am not sure of contract situations but I would be surprised if guys like Sumner, Buntine, Corr, Haynes are not quietly looking for a move. Whiley and Williams seem to have to do a lot to get a chance and could fancy their chances elsewhere. Next year I would be surprised if a few teams didn't come hard after McCarthy and Barrett. Those kind of guys are excellent depth but GWS are not going to be able to keep them all.

Boyd is one who I could definately see wanting to leave. Its hard to play those three KPFs together. I am sure GWS will be trying to keep him though and they will be asking for a bomb. A problem for them is that from next year the threat of the PSD is going to have teeth.

 

[Geoff Heywood]

Key forwards are hard to judge in their U18 years. The really big ones like Boyd tend to stand out more than the skinnier versions because they dominate that level due to their sheer size. Whether that translates to the AFL is another matter.

This is why I have reservations about Wright. I would have McCartin & Moore as the two standouts in an AFL transferable sense this year.

 

[cotter101]

For what it's worth, Emma Quayle reporting Marco Paparone has signed on with us for a further two years.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Quayle doesn't normally go unless she's very sure so it's fantastic news for the Lions and for Marco, obviously.

Hopefully everything is okay on the family front.

 

[Two Planks]

Would the lions consider trading Leuenberger now that Martin has taken the game by storm. If so, what would it take.

 

[Lionmoe21]

Would the lions consider trading Leuenberger now that Martin has taken the game by storm. If so, what would it take.

i know this may sound like overs but i woudnt trade unless its a top 15 pick

 

[Two Planks]

i know this may sound like overs but i woudnt trade unless its a top 15 pick

I would offer cats 1st pick (15ish)

 

[Simba Moyo]

Would the lions consider trading Leuenberger now that Martin has taken the game by storm. If so, what would it take.

There's been a lot of talk about this on the the lions board. I personally would prefer to keep both given our ruck history. Plus it's great to have two high quality rucks on this list and Leppa's gameplan of wanting to play two rucks, so I'd imagine it would have to be something of quality for us to want to trade either of them

 

[Lionmoe21]

I would offer cats 1st pick (15ish)

yer id say thats fair but hopefully luey can get a few games this year and both he and martin can prove that they can play together as forward ruck combo and we keep both

 

[cotter101]

Would the lions consider trading Leuenberger now that Martin has taken the game by storm. If so, what would it take.

I don't think we would, unless the offer was too good to resist. A combination of Martin and Leuenberger would be the best in the competition.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Sorry to take this off track a bit, but Lions supporters, how's Archie Smith developing? Obviously coming from a fair way back and will take time, just curious.

 

[cotter101]

Sorry to take this off track a bit, but Lions supporters, how's Archie Smith developing? Obviously coming from a fair way back and will take time, just curious.

Was showing some seriously good signs earlier this year and was a big chance to debut before Martin's injury return and massive turn in form. Tapered off a bit but still showing some good signs in the reserves. Needs to work on a few things, like his marking(common for young ruckman).

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Was showing some seriously good signs earlier this year and was a big chance to debut before Martin's injury return and massive turn in form. Tapered off a bit but still showing some good signs in the reserves. Needs to work on a few things, like his marking(common for young ruckman).

Thanks. Think he's got some nice attributes but will obviously take a little while to show what he's got.

Personally I think you should listen to offers for Leuey but not sure you'll get an offer that matches what you value him at thanks to his injuries. Obviously a tough situation though as all of West, Leuey and Martin are good ruckmen but aren't overly fantastic around the ground.

 

[cotter101]

Thanks. Think he's got some nice attributes but will obviously take a little while to show what he's got.

Personally I think you should listen to offers for Leuey but not sure you'll get an offer that matches what you value him at thanks to his injuries. Obviously a tough situation though as all of West, Leuey and Martin are good ruckmen but aren't overly fantastic around the ground.

Interesting you say Leuenberger and Martin aren't overly fantastic around the ground. Martin is averaging 20 disposals, 5 marks and 4 clearances a game. He'd virtually like an extra midfielder. Leunberger's athletic ability makes him fairly good around the ground. I agree with you on West though. He's probably be suited as the second ruck rather than the primary one.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Interesting you say Leuenberger and Martin aren't overly fantastic around the ground. Martin is averaging 20 disposals, 5 marks and 4 clearances a game. He'd virtually like an extra midfielder. Leunberger's athletic ability makes him fairly good around the ground. I agree with you on West though. He's probably be suited as the second ruck rather than the primary one.

Sorry, I mean resting up forward or down back. When in the ruck they float around nicely but rest either of them up forward and you're unlikely to get much out of them. My point was more that it's difficult to play two or more of them in the same side at the same time; ideally you have a more natural second ruck pairing one of them.

 

[aussierulesrules]

i know this may sound like overs but i woudnt trade unless its a top 15 pick

I would bloody well think you wouldn't! I know he's more durable, but we got pick 18, Savage and effectively a pick upgrade from 24/25 to 19 for McEvoy last year and when fit I'd rate Luey as better than Mac for sure, especially in the ruck.

If you got a good offer for him I reckon you ought to think really hard about it though, as he just seems like someone with a thin and relatively brittle body who is likely to have one of those careers that looks like really exploding, but never really reaches those heights because of persistent injury interruptions.

 

[Lionmoe21]

I would bloody well think you wouldn't! I know he's more durable, but we got pick 18, Savage and effectively a pick upgrade from 24/25 to 19 for McEvoy last year and when fit I'd rate Luey as better than Mac for sure, especially in the ruck.

If you got a good offer for him I reckon you ought to think really hard about it though, as he just seems like someone with a thin and relatively brittle body who is likely to have one of those careers that looks like really exploding, but never really reaches those heights because of persistent injury interruptions.

Yer i know he is worth more when he is fit but alot of teams will say its overs because of all the injuries he has had, i dont want to trade him unless we get a fair deal, he is contracted so the only way i see him being traded is if we get a deal we cant refuse

 

[Moist Biscuit]

If Fyfe was on the table, what would your club package together, would never trade him but I'm curious to see how others rate him.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I'd give you a lot. Deal?